sunstoned Posted October 16, 2019 Posted October 16, 2019 (edited) I am not sure if this post belongs here or in the news section. I am unclear why the church would oppose this. Conversion therapy has been largely debunked by science. Quote: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints on Tuesday opposed a proposed rule that would ban Utah-licensed mental health professionals from using conversion therapy — such as trying to turn a gay child straight or alter a minor’s gender identity. https://www.sltrib.com/news/politics/20 ... h-opposes/ Edited October 16, 2019 by sunstoned
Popular Post Gillebre Posted October 16, 2019 Popular Post Posted October 16, 2019 I think that to boil this down to a simple "why would the Church oppose banning conversion therapy" would be inaccurate. That makes it seem like they're in favor of conversion therapy which I do not think is the case. I believe the Church means to point out related concerns connected to therapy in general, and that a broad ban on conversion therapy as proposed would overstep. 6
Popular Post Robert F. Smith Posted October 16, 2019 Popular Post Posted October 16, 2019 8 minutes ago, sunstoned said: I am not sure if this post belongs here or in the news section. I am unclear why the church would oppose this. Conversion therapy has been largely debunked by science. Quote: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints on Tuesday opposed a proposed rule that would ban Utah-licensed mental health professionals from using conversion therapy — such as trying to turn a gay child straight or alter a minor’s gender identity. https://www.sltrib.com/news/politics/20 ... h-opposes/ Yeh, why would they oppose the politically correct and woke standard? 6
kllindley Posted October 16, 2019 Posted October 16, 2019 14 minutes ago, sunstoned said: I am not sure if this post belongs here or in the news section. I am unclear why the church would oppose this. Conversion therapy has been largely debunked by science. Quote: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints on Tuesday opposed a proposed rule that would ban Utah-licensed mental health professionals from using conversion therapy — such as trying to turn a gay child straight or alter a minor’s gender identity. https://www.sltrib.com/news/politics/20 ... h-opposes/ There are significant problems work the rule as written. It is too broad and as written would allow censure of therapists who even try to help say a bisexual youth stop an unwanted sexual behavior. 4
Thinking Posted October 16, 2019 Posted October 16, 2019 Quote Studies have found that more than 60% of children subjected to conversion therapy attempt suicide. 'Nuff said. Quote We teach the right of individuals to self-determination and the right of parents to guide the development of their children What rights do the children have? 1
kllindley Posted October 16, 2019 Posted October 16, 2019 This Spring, Church representatives and members attempted to work with legislators to find a compromise that protected youth from both harmful practices and from the State determining what goals they could have in therapy. However, Equality Utah and the legislation's sponsor refused to accept anything other than what they demanded. This rule is word for word identical to the failed legislation. 3
kllindley Posted October 16, 2019 Posted October 16, 2019 2 minutes ago, Thinking said: Studies have found that more than 60% of children subjected to conversion therapy attempt suicide. What studies? Do those studies differentiate between "therapy" from licensed therapists and pastoral or other lay efforts? 4 minutes ago, Thinking said: What rights do the children have? How about the right to determine what their goals are for therapy? 3
Popular Post carbon dioxide Posted October 16, 2019 Popular Post Posted October 16, 2019 43 minutes ago, sunstoned said: I am not sure if this post belongs here or in the news section. I am unclear why the church would oppose this. Conversion therapy has been largely debunked by science. My problem is that this need especially by those on the left to ban things in life. People should have a choice in life to do what they want. Nobody should be forces into conversion therapy but to ban its takes away choice. Its a wide spread problem especially on those on the left. Some what to ban our choice in health care. Ban our choice in the types of guns we can buy. Ban our choice on what we can say in public or at work. Every week, California is banning something. America should be a country where we should get more freedom all the time. It seems the opposite is really happening. 8
Popular Post Calm Posted October 16, 2019 Popular Post Posted October 16, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, kllindley said: What studies? Do those studies differentiate between "therapy" from licensed therapists and pastoral or other lay efforts? Also, how does that compare to those in similar situations where the only difference is undergoing conversion therapy? If 60% act on suicide ideation without conversion therapy as well, then nothing has been accomplished by removing it. (Not saying this is true, just making a point that a stat thrown out like that without context is pretty meaningless.) I have no doubt there are some forms of what has been labeled as conversion therapy that are dangerous, I have read some descriptions I have found troubling and even repulsive and see no reason to believe those kind make any positive changes. I do believe 'true' conversion therapy, promising someone they can be turned from experiencing homosexual feelings and ideas to purely heterosexual internal experiences with never experiencing any same sex feelings again is a fraud. (I don't think same/opposite sex feelings are so one dimensional they can be isolated and turned off like that, our minds don't have such on/off 'switches' for every day things). But there may be other factors contributing to the stat given, such as the parents or pastors or others themselves who are the kind to push individuals to take conversion therapy, especially the extreme forms, might also be affecting these individuals in negative ways. Or the reason why parents are pushing for conversion therapy may be they see a lot of selfdestructive behaviour (substance abuse is highly correlated with suicide in youth, for example) and feel desperate to help their child get away from those, thus these individuals are already high risk. Focusing solely on anything resembling conversion therapy (such as suggesting an individual can work on avoiding same sex behaviour and alter perception of their same sex feelings such that they may perceive less need to act on feelings) may set up teens to not get help when they still want and even need it (there can be sexual behaviour that is dangerous, self destructive whether same or opposite sex behaviour). And too broad of labeling of therapy types as "conversion therapy" may remove valid coping skills being taught through therapy if there is any suggestion that certain forms of sexuality are less desirable or healthy than others. Edited October 16, 2019 by Calm 7
Calm Posted October 16, 2019 Posted October 16, 2019 (edited) 13 minutes ago, carbon dioxide said: Nobody should be forces into conversion therapy but to ban its takes away choice Fraudulent practices making inaccurate claims....do you think such should be banned? For example, if a person claims to be able to cure heart disease with a pill, do you think any oversight should be given by law? Should a bank be able to claim to take and protect your money and then use it for whatever they want because people can choose to use the bank, but are not forced to in any way? Edited October 16, 2019 by Calm 2
InCognitus Posted October 16, 2019 Posted October 16, 2019 32 minutes ago, Thinking said: Quote Studies have found that more than 60% of children subjected to conversion therapy attempt suicide. 'Nuff said. Where is the study that came up with that percentage? According to this American Academy of Pediatrics study, female to male transgender adolescents have a 50% suicide rate: Quote Our findings reveal disparities in suicide behavior and important insight into the heterogeneity that exists within transgender populations. Consistent with some community-based studies of adolescents6 and adults,13,14 we found that transgender, female to male adolescents and nonbinary adolescents reported the highest rates of suicide behavior. Indeed, nearly 1 in 2 transgender, female to male and 2 in 5 nonbinary adolescents reported that they had tried to kill themselves, which is well above the <1 in 10 rate that was identified for male adolescents in this sample (presumably adolescents who are cisgender). Furthermore, we identified that the intersection of sexual orientation and gender identity (particularly for transgender adolescents who identify as male to female or female to male as well as those who are questioning their gender identity) is associated with exacerbated odds of suicide behavior (nearly 2–4 times higher odds compared with transgender adolescents who identify as only heterosexual). In addition, for most transgender subgroups, having parents with higher education levels and living in urban spaces did not appear to mitigate the odds for suicide behavior as it did for female and male adolescents. They offer these conclusions: Quote Conclusions TGAs are at high risk for suicidal ideation and behavior, and researchers should include comprehensive measures of gender assigned at birth and current gender identity to accurately characterize TGA subgroup differences in future suicidality studies. Our results indicate transgender males, transgender females, and nonbinary adolescents assigned female at birth are at especially high risk for suicidal ideation and attempt. TGAs should be prioritized in future research examining adolescent suicidality, including explicating mechanisms of suicidality among TGAs to inform future intervention and prevention strategies designed to reduce suicidality within this vulnerable population. So this study indicates that transgender adolescents are a "vulnerable population" in general and are at high risk for suicidal tendencies even as "transgender adolescents". I'm not sure that conversion therapy does anything to increase that risk. Do you have a study that says the risk is increased?
Scott Lloyd Posted October 16, 2019 Posted October 16, 2019 If, as the Church’s news release states, the proposed rule fails to protect religious beliefs, that is reason enough for the Church to weigh in on this or any other matter. 3
Calm Posted October 16, 2019 Posted October 16, 2019 (edited) 22 minutes ago, InCognitus said: I'm not sure that conversion therapy does anything to increase that risk. Conversion therapy is usually focusing on a different set of individuals, those experiencing same sex attractions which is not the same as transgender, (not dealing with attraction, but body identity). I assume you know this from past posts and you just left out something clarifying how you got from transgender suicidial uncompleted acts rates to conversion therapy rates. Edited October 16, 2019 by Calm
InCognitus Posted October 16, 2019 Posted October 16, 2019 6 minutes ago, Calm said: Conversion therapy is usually focusing on a different set of individuals, those experiencing same sex attractions which is not the same as transgender, (not dealing with attraction, but body identity). I assume you know this from past posts and you just left out something clarifying how you got from transgender suicidial uncompleted acts rates to conversion therapy rates. You are right, thank you. My mistake. I was going off of the OP statement that the proposal "would ban Utah-licensed mental health professionals from using conversion therapy — such as trying to turn a gay child straight or alter a minor’s gender identity." And the article linked in the OP indicates that the 60% suicide rate is for LGBT individuals, so I was going the wrong direction. Elsewhere I have seen some statistics on the claims of the proposed ban related to the gender identity issue, and I was basing my response on those assumptions.
Duncan Posted October 16, 2019 Posted October 16, 2019 (edited) 7 hours ago, carbon dioxide said: My problem is that this need especially by those on the left to ban things in life. People should have a choice in life to do what they want. Nobody should be forces into conversion therapy but to ban its takes away choice. Its a wide spread problem especially on those on the left. Some what to ban our choice in health care. Ban our choice in the types of guns we can buy. Ban our choice on what we can say in public or at work. Every week, California is banning something. America should be a country where we should get more freedom all the time. It seems the opposite is really happening. what about people's freedom to be gay,or trans? if that's what they are or think they are anyways. I think both of us would agree that we can't imagine what it's like to be gay or trans or whatever but who am I to tell them what they should be feeling or not feeling because I don't know and it gets to the point where if I say you can't do this or that they'll turn back on me and say I can't do this or that. The "right" has been telling people on the left to not do or to do this but now more and more people are coming out and have support and they are turning around and saying hey... edit to add-My Mum had an older male cousin who she knew in the 1940's and he never married or anything but now looking back she said he was gay, just the way he was but in 85 lifetimes there was no way he was coming out of the closet in 1940's rural western Canada, he'd be beaten to a pulp 60 ways to sunday Edited October 16, 2019 by Duncan 1
Jake Starkey Posted October 16, 2019 Posted October 16, 2019 (edited) As written, certain problems arise from the written rule. If a student wants (as opposed to being forced) the therapy, the therapist's ability to help is restricted. Issues of accountability and the youth's age (and consent) come into play as well. I don't support conversion therapy, but the proposed ban's overreach bothers me. Edited October 16, 2019 by Jake Starkey 1
Tacenda Posted October 16, 2019 Posted October 16, 2019 8 hours ago, Thinking said: 'Nuff said. What rights do the children have? They are kind of low on the totem pole.
Tacenda Posted October 16, 2019 Posted October 16, 2019 5 minutes ago, Jake Starkey said: As written, certain problems arise from the written rule. If a student wants (as opposed to being forced) the therapy, the therapist's ability to help is restricted. Issues of accountability and the youth's age (and consent) come into play as well. I don't support conversion therapy, but the proposed overreach bothers me. I haven't read the proposal, isn't it where if older than 18 they have the right to do whatever they want, but under 18, parents or ? can't force their LGBTQ children to have conversion therapy?
stemelbow Posted October 16, 2019 Posted October 16, 2019 8 hours ago, kllindley said: What studies? Do those studies differentiate between "therapy" from licensed therapists and pastoral or other lay efforts? Here's what I tracked when I googled around to find the studies: An opinion piece in USA Today said this: Quote ...their research showed that LGBT young adults who, as youth, were under familial pressure to change were more than twice as likely to attempt suicide (22 percent to 48 percent) and almost three times as likely (63%) when subjected to actual conversion efforts by external parties such as therapists or religious leaders https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/voices/2018/12/06/gay-conversion-therapy-lgbt-republican-ban-column/2192421002/ This study was cited: https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/00918369.2018.1538407?scroll=top&needAccess=true If anyone gets access to the full article and can tell us precisely what it says that'd be great. I don't have access and don't plan on getting it. I also found this study (but likewise can't see the full text of it): https://ajph.aphapublications.org/doi/full/10.2105/AJPH.2019.305237
Jake Starkey Posted October 16, 2019 Posted October 16, 2019 1 hour ago, Tacenda said: I haven't read the proposal, isn't it where if older than 18 they have the right to do whatever they want, but under 18, parents or ? can't force their LGBTQ children to have conversion therapy? I am not sure. If parents and youth are in agreement to do it, then I don't think the state has a compelling interest to forbid it. 1
The Nehor Posted October 16, 2019 Posted October 16, 2019 (edited) What happened to the proposal back in March that everyone including the Church seemed to agree was not objectionable? I thought this was done months ago? Edit: Oh, found it. A committee stripped the bill down to only ban extreme conversion therapy and it all broke down. Someone should really find out if someone on that committee makes money off of conversion therapy somehow. Edited October 16, 2019 by The Nehor 2
provoman Posted October 16, 2019 Posted October 16, 2019 10 hours ago, kllindley said: This rule is word for word identical to the failed legislation. Do you have a side by side comparison? An article I read said the proposed rule was similar. (I have not read in an article that the proposed rule is word for word identical.)
provoman Posted October 16, 2019 Posted October 16, 2019 20 minutes ago, The Nehor said: What happened to the proposal back in March that everyone including the Church seemed to agree was not objectionable? I thought this was done months ago? Edit: Oh, found it. A committee stripped the bill down to only ban extreme conversion therapy and it all broke down. Someone should really find out if someone on that committee makes money off of conversion therapy somehow. I had a Teacher who prohibited Students from watching a School sponsored program because some of the School sponsored content discussed STDs, she turned off the broadcast and said we did not need to hear what was being discussed. It seemed clear she morally objected to the content and took it upon herself to "save" us students from the horrors of the discussion.
MustardSeed Posted October 16, 2019 Posted October 16, 2019 (edited) 10 hours ago, Calm said: Fraudulent practices making inaccurate claims....do you think such should be banned? For example, if a person claims to be able to cure heart disease with a pill, do you think any oversight should be given by law? Should a bank be able to claim to take and protect your money and then use it for whatever they want because people can choose to use the bank, but are not forced to in any way? Came here to say this. Thank you. its not illegal to go to therapy and say “I’m having sexual thoughts about one gender but prefer to be oriented another way.” It’s not illegal to work with said client and address aid clients goals. however, to advertise that you are a camp that corrects homosexuality SHOULD be illegal imo. There are way too many uninformed parents shipping kids off to Utah to be corrected imo. Anecdotal opinion. Also IMO - this may not be pc- there is what turns you on (kink)!and then there is who you want to wake up next to in the morning (preference) Not always the same thing. (See Joe Kort for more info ) It is my OPINION that in today’s climate of sexuality it is crucial that we have therapists who can help people honestly understand who they are sexually and if someone desires to live a straight lifestyle that they can go somewhere to find out how to make that fulfilling for them and if that is possible. ) Edited October 16, 2019 by MustardSeed
california boy Posted October 16, 2019 Posted October 16, 2019 (edited) Of course the Church is going to oppose Reparative Therapy. Why wouldn't they? Church leaders certainly know more about mental health issues than Of course the Church is going to oppose Reparative Therapy Why wouldn't they? Church leaders certainly think they know more about mental health issues than the American Medical Association, the American Psychological Association, and the American Academy of Pediatrics, among others—have issued public statements opposing the use of conversion therapy because it is harmful and ineffective. American Professional organizations that have issued statements opposing reparative therapy American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry American Academy of Pediatrics American Association for Marriage and Family Therapy American College of Physicians American Counseling Association American Medical Association American Psychiatric Association American Psychological Association American Academy of Family Physicians American Academy of Nursing American Association of Sexuality Educators, Counselors and Therapists American Counseling Association American Medical Student Association American Psychoanalytic Association National Association of Social Workers The Professional School Counselor and LGBT Youth The Association of LGBTQ Psychiatrists Clinical Social Work Association Why would the Church listen to these professional organizations. Edited October 16, 2019 by california boy
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