Disapointment in Temple, how to get over?

[bluebell]

14 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

Was something being taken too far? It's a little hard to imagine what could have been done to declare a universal temple ban on kneeling in the Celestial Room. Any examples? Stories?

I only have what I've heard, which was that people were making a show of it, bringing a lot of attention to themselves, and also making it difficult for people to walk around without tripping over someone.  Maybe someone else has more specifics.

[Raingirl]

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

Yes that becomes a kind of celestial room for some without a recommend working on a return, and what seems to be a public waiting room for others. So is very difficult. 

Yes some do come to that public area just to pray.

And then there are the gardens. Too much cheering for emerging newly married couples rings through the temple. 

But those are happy noises. They don't bother me but they do bother some.

Even in waiting areas, there is a level of decorum, respect, and reverence that is appropriate to the temple.

In the year between joining the church and receiving my endowment, I would go to the temple regularly to pray, meditate, and enjoy the peace and special presence I felt there. I would spend time in the waiting room, the atrium, and on the grounds. Some of the behavior I saw there was appalling. Noise levels more appropriate for a bar than a temple. A guy loudly bragging that he had used someone else’s recommend to attend a sealing, as he didn’t have one because “it’s just a bunch of BS”, kids treating the grounds like a playground (while their parents pay absolutely no attention to them), to the point one toddler fell into the reflecting pool three times, and bystanders had to rescue him each time.

So, yeah, I totally get what the OP is saying.

 

[Ahab]

On 9/29/2019 at 8:33 AM, Duncan said:

Not to get personal but how do you get over bad experiences in the Temple? I'm not talking about Demonic posession or running into someone from Calgary( 😣) but constant unanswered prayers, too noisy in Celestial room or other things like that? in other aspects of life if you have regular bad experiences as a grocery store you just shop elsewhere

The "forgive them for they know not what they do" attitude usually works pretty good for me.

If I have the time and opportunity I try to each them what they apparently do not know, in a nice way of course, but sometimes it's just better to pretend they do not exist or are not really there.

Edited September 30, 2019 by Ahab

[Nacho2dope]

I have never had an experience like that in the temple and for that I count myself lucky. Now every single Sunday at church, that's a different story. Our ward is the second ward in the afternoon. The ward before us goes from 9:00am to 11:00am and for some reason they all gather in the Chapel at 11:00 or stand in front of the doors going in and just talk, and no one from my ward can get to their seats. I stood waiting for a group of people to move for 8 minutes on Sunday. They were standing in the isle and I was trying to get to a pew my wife had put our stuff on. They were oblivious that I was there or that our ward was coming in. This happens in our ward as well I just dread taking our kids to primary, It take 10 minutes to go 50 feet because everyone just stands in the middle of the hall to chat. It gets me so fired up. My wife and I talk about this every week and she just laughs now about how upset I get. I totally understand that it is my issue. 

[Kenngo1969]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

I only have what I've heard, which was that people were making a show of it, bringing a lot of attention to themselves, and also making it difficult for people to walk around without tripping over someone.  Maybe someone else has more specifics.

If I want to kneel, I can do that at the foot of my bed, elsewhere in my home, at an altar in the Temple, and, depending on the circumstances (if, e.g., I am in a small-group meeting/Personal Priesthood Interview to discuss ministering) at church.  Others' mileage may vary, but, to me, kneeling in the Celestial Room, has sort of a "dear-Lord-I-thank-thee-that-I-am-not-as-other-men-are" feel to it.

[The Nehor]

The Savior knew how to quiet a temple down. We should go and do likewise.

[bluebell]

45 minutes ago, Nacho2dope said:

I have never had an experience like that in the temple and for that I count myself lucky. Now every single Sunday at church, that's a different story. Our ward is the second ward in the afternoon. The ward before us goes from 9:00am to 11:00am and for some reason they all gather in the Chapel at 11:00 or stand in front of the doors going in and just talk, and no one from my ward can get to their seats. I stood waiting for a group of people to move for 8 minutes on Sunday. They were standing in the isle and I was trying to get to a pew my wife had put our stuff on. They were oblivious that I was there or that our ward was coming in. This happens in our ward as well I just dread taking our kids to primary, It take 10 minutes to go 50 feet because everyone just stands in the middle of the hall to chat. It gets me so fired up. My wife and I talk about this every week and she just laughs now about how upset I get. I totally understand that it is my issue. 

You should talk to the bishop about it or have someone bring it up in ward council so they can ask the other ward's bishop to deal with it.

[nuclearfuels]

On 9/29/2019 at 11:33 AM, Duncan said:

Not to get personal but how do you get over bad experiences in the Temple? I'm not talking about Demonic posession or running into someone from Calgary( 😣) but constant unanswered prayers, too noisy in Celestial room or other things like that? in other aspects of life if you have regular bad experiences as a grocery store you just shop elsewhere

Great question, Duncan!

If I have a negative experience with staff at the grocery store, that does not impact the quality of the groceries.

Perhaps the answer you're seeking is outside of the scope of what you perceive to be possible answers.

Example from Joseph Smith's life:

Q: Which Church is true?

A: None of them. Get ready. 

[Ahab]

1 hour ago, Nacho2dope said:

I have never had an experience like that in the temple and for that I count myself lucky. Now every single Sunday at church, that's a different story. Our ward is the second ward in the afternoon. The ward before us goes from 9:00am to 11:00am and for some reason they all gather in the Chapel at 11:00 or stand in front of the doors going in and just talk, and no one from my ward can get to their seats. I stood waiting for a group of people to move for 8 minutes on Sunday. They were standing in the isle and I was trying to get to a pew my wife had put our stuff on. They were oblivious that I was there or that our ward was coming in. This happens in our ward as well I just dread taking our kids to primary, It take 10 minutes to go 50 feet because everyone just stands in the middle of the hall to chat. It gets me so fired up. My wife and I talk about this every week and she just laughs now about how upset I get. I totally understand that it is my issue. 

Sheesh!  Some people can be so rude!  If I saw that happen consistently I would start yelling:  GET OUT OF THE WAY, PEOPLE!  ANOTHER WARD IS HERE AND NEEDS TO GET IN THE CHAPEL!

i get so sick and tired of rude, insensitive, inconsiderate or however else you want to say it... chattering.... people!   It's like they don't even realize that there are other people around them trying to do what our Savior wants them to do!!! 

[Calm]

3 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said:

Was something being taken too far? It's a little hard to imagine what could have been done to declare a universal temple ban on kneeling in the Celestial Room. Any examples? Stories?

I can’t remember if I was told this when I was told not to kneel or whether I heard about it, but it was a problem when a number would kneel for long periods of time, either in groups or separately.  I vaguely remember it being a fad for awhile, but that may be because I was at BYU when I heard the instruction and everything is a fad there at one time or another. 

[Nacho2dope]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

You should talk to the bishop about it or have someone bring it up in ward council so they can ask the other ward's bishop to deal with it.

That is a good idea. Thanks

[truth a la carte]

We had an experience that was quite surprising at the time, though we laugh about it now. First, some background: the chapel of the DC Temple is not on the same floor as the ordinance rooms, so the chapel is always empty and crowds can form around the ordinance rooms. One Saturday my husband and I arrived at the temple at 10am. Bad idea (we were young and inexperienced). Conversations were very loud and distracting (e.g., conversations about the worst professor at BYU, the latest football game, I forget what else). We still had at least 45 minutes to wait but had come with a purpose and were getting bogged down by the situation, so my husband went down to the chapel and brought back a Book of Mormon for us to read.

Within thirty seconds an ordinance worker came over to berate us saying, "Book of Mormons do NOT belong on this floor of the temple!" She was quite loud, though of course she had to be with all the noise. We were horrified. We were told to remove the Book of Mormon immediately and bring it down to its rightful place in the chapel. We tried reasoning with her (reverently, of course) for a moment, saying that we of course intended to replace the book in the chapel before our session, but it was a lost cause. My husband dutifully brought the book back down to the chapel and then came up to wait for our session. I hate to say that we had completely lost the spirit at that point. We have gone on weekdays ever since.

Incidentally, quite a few Bibles and Books of Mormon now "belong" in that section of the temple (or used to, before the renovations began). They arrived about a month after our experience. Someone must have seen what happened and made a comment.

Edited September 30, 2019 by truth a la carte
Words are hard.

[HappyJackWagon]

2 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

If I want to kneel, I can do that at the foot of my bed, elsewhere in my home, at an altar in the Temple, and, depending on the circumstances (if, e.g., I am in a small-group meeting/Personal Priesthood Interview to discuss ministering) at church.  Others' mileage may vary, but, to me, kneeling in the Celestial Room, has sort of a "dear-Lord-I-thank-thee-that-I-am-not-as-other-men-are" feel to it.

I can definitely see that...and appreciate that point of view.

But I think it's also very reasonable to think that a member, being in the holiest room within the holiest building would want to go all out in prayer to God as they seek answers or whatever. We can either assume the worst about the person, ie they are grandstanding, or give them the benefit of the doubt that they are in the temple and are trying to humble themselves as they pray. If they are trying to be humble and earnest in prayer, should they really care about what other people think?

[Scott Lloyd]

6 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

No actually that is a universal rule, seriously. No kneeling PRAYER in the C.R. That is straight from the temple Department.

And just a terminology thing, there are 3 Temple Matrons who are equivalent to the Presidency.

In leadership matters there are essentially two temples. There's the women's Temple and then there's the men's temple.  Sisters completely administer sisters.

Matrons are the mirrors of how everything is supposed to be.

Probably the sister who corrected you was an ordinance worker and not a matron.

Next time get their badge number.

No seriously, kind of.

If it's a Matron that will be on their name badge. Matrons run the complaint department for sister ordinance workers

Of course all of this is paralleled on the men's side.

Incidentally there are no longer any Veil workers. All the veil workers are now being trained in doing all the ordinances as well. Same with the receptionist position on the sisters side.

Good post. Very instructive. Matron is a title reserved for specific persons in the temple administration. Other females, like their male counterparts, are properly called ordinance workers. 
 

But I wondered why you used the singular <their> in “If it’s a matron that will be on their name badge.” Here is an instance where the person referenced is unequivocally and unambiguously female, so you could easily have said, “If it’s a matron, that will be on <her> name badge.” 
 

Sometimes, I get this irrational feeling that people use the singular they/their/them —when there’s no good reason to do it — just to bug me. (Just kidding)

Edited September 30, 2019 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

12 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

I can definitely see that...and appreciate that point of view.

But I think it's also very reasonable to think that a member, being in the holiest room within the holiest building would want to go all out in prayer to God as they seek answers or whatever. We can either assume the worst about the person, ie they are grandstanding, or give them the benefit of the doubt that they are in the temple and are trying to humble themselves as they pray. If they are trying to be humble and earnest in prayer, should they really care about what other people think?

My opinion is that if they truly desire to humble themselves, the Lord will discern that desire in their hearts without their having to make an outward show. 

[Scott Lloyd]

15 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

That's the whole point. You walk up right next to the offender, in his face if necessary, whispering, and he has to shut up in order to hear you.

It can be a rather aggressive way of being not "aggressive."

 

Ah. Got it. 

[Scott Lloyd]

4 hours ago, Raingirl said:

Even in waiting areas, there is a level of decorum, respect, and reverence that is appropriate to the temple.

In the year between joining the church and receiving my endowment, I would go to the temple regularly to pray, meditate, and enjoy the peace and special presence I felt there. I would spend time in the waiting room, the atrium, and on the grounds. Some of the behavior I saw there was appalling. Noise levels more appropriate for a bar than a temple. A guy loudly bragging that he had used someone else’s recommend to attend a sealing, as he didn’t have one because “it’s just a bunch of BS”, kids treating the grounds like a playground (while their parents pay absolutely no attention to them), to the point one toddler fell into the reflecting pool three times, and bystanders had to rescue him each time.

So, yeah, I totally get what the OP is saying.

 

I would have been tempted to report the guy doing the bragging. If I’m not mistaken, using someone else’s recommend or “lending” one out to be so used is grounds for Church discipline amounting at the very least to the revoking of the recommend. 
 

I’ve heard of such behavior but never personally observed it. I’m saddened that you as a new convert had to be exposed to it. 

[LoudmouthMormon]

On 9/29/2019 at 9:33 AM, Duncan said:

Not to get personal but how do you get over bad experiences in the Temple? I'm not talking about Demonic posession or running into someone from Calgary( 😣) but constant unanswered prayers, too noisy in Celestial room or other things like that? in other aspects of life if you have regular bad experiences as a grocery store you just shop elsewhere

Easy peasy.  If it's you, repent.  If it's someone else, forgive.

 

[Scott Lloyd]

19 hours ago, bluebell said:

You should talk to the bishop about it or have someone bring it up in ward council so they can ask the other ward's bishop to deal with it.

One of the three wards that share our building is a single-adult ward. As one might imagine, this compounds the parking problem, because rather than car pooling, nearly every member of that ward drives his or her own separate vehicle to church. 
 

I don’t begrudge them this. I was a single adult for many years, and I remember what it’s like. 
 

The problem is that the people park pretty much anywhere they think they can get away with it, and they ignore pavement striping and signs in the process. 
 

This past Sunday it was my turn to help with the tithing count. That duty includes following the bishopric member to the bank so as to witness him doing the deposit drop. But the hapless bishopric counselor could not back his pickup truck out of the parking stall because members of the other ward had parallel-parked next to the red curb opposite his parking space. The poor man had to ride with me to deliver the deposit and then have me take him home, where he was obliged to wait until the cars cleared out of the parking lot so he could go and retrieve his truck. 
 

I think exercising common courtesy is entailed in bearing one another’s burdens. 

Edited October 1, 2019 by Scott Lloyd

[Ahab]

4 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

One of the three wards that share our building is a single-adult ward. As one might imagine, this compounds the parking problem, because rather than car pooling, nearly every member of that ward drives his or her own separate vehicle to church. 
 

I don’t begrudge them this. I was a single adult for many years, and I remember what it’s like. 
 

The problem is that the people park pretty much anywhere they think they can get away with, and they ignore pavement striping and signs in the process. 
 

This past Sunday it was my turn to help with the tithing count. That duty includes following the bishopric member to the bank so as to witness him doing the deposit drop. But the hapless bishopric counselor could not back his pickup truck out of the parking stall because members of the other ward had parallel-parked next to the red curb opposite his parking space. The poor man had to ride with me to deliver the deposit and then have me take him home, where he was obliged to wait until the cars cleared out of the parking lot so he could go and retrieve his truck. 
 

I think exercising common courtesy is entailed in bearing one another’s burdens. 

I think that would qualify as ward business that should be taken care of by someone in the bishopric even if they were still up on that stand at the head of the chapel.  Notifying the people of those cars that they need to be moved so they can bear one another's burdens.

Not during the sacrament, of course, but during the sacrament meeting someone could go up to the stand with a note to say which cars were blocking someone from leaving the parking lot.

For some reason some people may not feel comfortable saying something about it but sometimes people need to speak up to let others know they need to take care of something to help someone else out!

[Calm]

1 hour ago, truth a la carte said:

Someone must have seen what happened and made a comment.

Good.

[Garden Girl]

4 hours ago, Nacho2dope said:

I have never had an experience like that in the temple and for that I count myself lucky. Now every single Sunday at church, that's a different story. Our ward is the second ward in the afternoon. The ward before us goes from 9:00am to 11:00am and for some reason they all gather in the Chapel at 11:00 or stand in front of the doors going in and just talk, and no one from my ward can get to their seats. I stood waiting for a group of people to move for 8 minutes on Sunday. They were standing in the isle and I was trying to get to a pew my wife had put our stuff on. They were oblivious that I was there or that our ward was coming in. This happens in our ward as well I just dread taking our kids to primary, It take 10 minutes to go 50 feet because everyone just stands in the middle of the hall to chat. It gets me so fired up. My wife and I talk about this every week and she just laughs now about how upset I get. I totally understand that it is my issue. 

Again, this is an issue to be brought up to the bishopric... (it's my issue too).  We are the only ward and people tend to gather in the hallway at the chapel entrance to converse, creating a log jam... I can understand to a point because people are glad to see each other, etc.  But more than once I've been standing waiting for people to move.. and I lose patience, raise my voice and declare... EXCUSE ME, CAN YOU PLEASE MOVE ASIDE SO PEOPLE CAN ENTER THE CHAPEL... THANK YOU... (if people are such oblivious clods that they are ignorant that they are causing a problem, they deserve what they get).  The bishop should assign grown men, not deacons, to gently help move people along.  Our summers/holidays can swell our numbers up to 400+... every folding chair is set up clear to the back of the cultural hall... we love it, and our visitors, and try to make attendance for everyone a positive experience.  After all, the majority are on vacation and they pack their "chapel clothes" (even though modest casual clothes are welcome) and take their vacation time to attend Church ... we even have to enlist visiting deacons to help pass sacrament, which they willingly do... each boy carrying two trays...  if people cooperate, all goes well and our visitors continue to return on numerous occasions...  the beach is magic, and we want them to feel it, including attending Church...

 from the beach on a crisp Fall day... sunny and clear... gentle breeze... GG

[The Nehor]

6 hours ago, Raingirl said:

Even in waiting areas, there is a level of decorum, respect, and reverence that is appropriate to the temple.

In the year between joining the church and receiving my endowment, I would go to the temple regularly to pray, meditate, and enjoy the peace and special presence I felt there. I would spend time in the waiting room, the atrium, and on the grounds. Some of the behavior I saw there was appalling. Noise levels more appropriate for a bar than a temple. A guy loudly bragging that he had used someone else’s recommend to attend a sealing, as he didn’t have one because “it’s just a bunch of BS”, kids treating the grounds like a playground (while their parents pay absolutely no attention to them), to the point one toddler fell into the reflecting pool three times, and bystanders had to rescue him each time.

So, yeah, I totally get what the OP is saying.

 

Counterpoint: At least you get to have a good laugh when he is burning in hell.

5 hours ago, Nacho2dope said:

I have never had an experience like that in the temple and for that I count myself lucky. Now every single Sunday at church, that's a different story. Our ward is the second ward in the afternoon. The ward before us goes from 9:00am to 11:00am and for some reason they all gather in the Chapel at 11:00 or stand in front of the doors going in and just talk, and no one from my ward can get to their seats. I stood waiting for a group of people to move for 8 minutes on Sunday. They were standing in the isle and I was trying to get to a pew my wife had put our stuff on. They were oblivious that I was there or that our ward was coming in. This happens in our ward as well I just dread taking our kids to primary, It take 10 minutes to go 50 feet because everyone just stands in the middle of the hall to chat. It gets me so fired up. My wife and I talk about this every week and she just laughs now about how upset I get. I totally understand that it is my issue. 

8 minutes? I would have long since just shoved them out of the way:

[Bernard Gui]

2 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said:

I can definitely see that...and appreciate that point of view.

But I think it's also very reasonable to think that a member, being in the holiest room within the holiest building would want to go all out in prayer to God as they seek answers or whatever. We can either assume the worst about the person, ie they are grandstanding, or give them the benefit of the doubt that they are in the temple and are trying to humble themselves as they pray. If they are trying to be humble and earnest in prayer, should they really care about what other people think?

Would you put a limit on how many can be kneeling? Just individuals? A couple kneeling together, a family of 10 kneeling together, a ward temple night group kneeling together? A time limit? 

Edited September 30, 2019 by Bernard Gui

[Garden Girl]

6 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Would you put a limit on how many can be kneeling? Just individuals? A couple kneeling together, a family of 10 kneeling together, a ward temple night group kneeling together? A time limit? 

Exactly... where do you draw the line... it could get chaotic.  As an ordinance worker we were instructed to watch for people kneeling and to gently ask them to refrain.  One person might be able to kneel inconspicuously... but soon you would have others and it would soon be out of hand and distracting... so, no kneeling...

GG