Disapointment in Temple, how to get over?

[mfbukowski]

On 10/3/2019 at 2:26 AM, Scott Lloyd said:

Hey Duncan, write this thread title, did Yoda?

In Latin syntax, the main verb at the end of the sentence always is.  I guess the writers wanted Yoda like a Latin scholar to sound.

Or maybe to Catholic school they just went. 

Very effective in telling a story, because one waits to find out until the end what happened it is.

Imagine:

"During the Ides of March, as he sat in a senate meeting, many of his friends before horrified eyes of onlookers the great Caesar was stabbed."

 

Edited October 5, 2019 by mfbukowski

[MiserereNobis]

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

In Latin syntax, the main verb at the end of the sentence always is.  I guess the writers wanted Yoda like a Latin scholar to sound.

Or maybe to Catholic school they just went. 

Very effective in telling a story, because one waits to find out until the end what happened it is.

Imagine:

"During the Ides of March, as he sat in a senate meeting, many of his friends before horrified eyes of onlookers the great Caesar was stabbed."

 

You’re still a good catholic school boy😜

[mfbukowski]

37 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

You’re still a good catholic school boy😜

I am deep inside a good schoolboy of the truly Universal Church of Jesus Christ in these the latter days, but something tells me that's not what you had in mind.

 

[The Nehor]

On 10/3/2019 at 6:01 PM, Matt Lohrke said:

This should be expected as the LDS endowment has been repurposed from the Scottish Free Mason Rites of Initiation (called "Exaltation").    This really isn't even debatable.  I can show you a side-by-side comparison.

Christ told us to offer him a broken heart and a contrite spirit.   He said nothing about opulent buildings, special clothing, hand signs, new names, tokens or anything else. 

Well, of course he did not tell you that.

[mfbukowski]

On 10/3/2019 at 4:01 PM, Matt Lohrke said:

This should be expected as the LDS endowment has been repurposed from the Scottish Free Mason Rites of Initiation (called "Exaltation").    This really isn't even debatable.  I can show you a side-by-side comparison.

Christ told us to offer him a broken heart and a contrite spirit.   He said nothing about opulent buildings, special clothing, hand signs, new names, tokens or anything else. 

Please do. Just do the Scottish Rite stuff and we will draw our own conclusions

I happen to know you are wrong.

 Count this as a CFR.

 And tell me what is your evidence for every thing that Christ did NOT do?

 That will be an interesting discussion, proving what did not happen in history.   

 

 

[mfbukowski]

On 10/3/2019 at 5:17 PM, SettingDogStar said:

Hundreds of threads on here show and talk about this exact point, we all know the similarities..this has been well known since the very day Joseph Smith have the endowment out over 100 years ago. This isn’t new information or shocking to anyone here.

 Believe what you will, but this comment offers very little to this discussion. Especially since many hundreds also enjoy and find peace in the ceremony. Maybe I should just keep my mouth shut, but I felt I had to say something.

Interesting he said "repurposed"

Every book in English repurposes the same 26 alphabetical symbols as well

Masonry was Joseph's symbolic language. What else would he "repurpose" ?

All the apostles were members of the same lodge, and knew exactly both sets of symbols, and no one saw that as problematic 

[mfbukowski]

This is a link to a site that discusses exaltation in Royal Arch masonry.

No content similarities whatsoever

The word exaltation simply means being raised to a higher order of masonry. No similarities of signs or what the stand for. No Christian references whatsoever.

Read it and draw your own conclusions

https://www.sacred-texts.com/mas/dun/dun08.htm

[Stargazer]

On 10/1/2019 at 5:26 PM, HappyJackWagon said:

I would argue that the only problem I could possibly see with kneeling is the current/modern cultural acceptance of kneeling. There's nothing wrong in and of itself, but if one thinks it's inappropriate, it is more reflective of that person, and not the person actually kneeling in prayer. It's as if some are arguing that the perception of others of the kneeling prayer is more important than the person kneeling in prayer. And this is in the temple...a religious context, and kneeling in prayer is inappropriate? I find this pretty funny.

I didn't say that kneeling in prayer in the temple is inappropriate.  My opinion is that while it is not inappropriate, quite apart from a policy not to kneel in prayer in the CR, it might cause inappropriate feelings or thoughts to arise. I direct your attention to Matthew 6:5,6:

5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

Not saying that those who might pray kneeling in the Celestial Room are being hypocrites.  But it might be seen as an inappropriate display.  And before you say, what others think doesn't matter, actually it can.  

By the way, FWIW I asked my wife about what you did and got called out for, and she said she hadn't been strictly constrained to stop people from kneeling down.  She did say that she thought your going to one knee to speak with your wife was perfectly acceptable, as far as she was concerned.

 

[mfbukowski]

24 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

I didn't say that kneeling in prayer in the temple is inappropriate.  My opinion is that while it is not inappropriate, quite apart from a policy not to kneel in prayer in the CR, it might cause inappropriate feelings or thoughts to arise. I direct your attention to Matthew 6:5,6:

5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

Not saying that those who might pray kneeling in the Celestial Room are being hypocrites.  But it might be seen as an inappropriate display.  And before you say, what others think doesn't matter, actually it can.  

By the way, FWIW I asked my wife about what you did and got called out for, and she said she hadn't been strictly constrained to stop people from kneeling down.  She did say that she thought your going to one knee to speak with your wife was perfectly acceptable, as far as she was concerned.

 

I repeat that the simple reason I learned was simply that robes should not touch the floor 

[SettingDogStar]

9 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Interesting he said "repurposed"

Every book in English repurposes the same 26 alphabetical symbols as well

Masonry was Joseph's symbolic language. What else would he "repurpose" ?

All the apostles were members of the same lodge, and knew exactly both sets of symbols, and no one saw that as problematic 

That’s why I made sure to mention that no one was surprised by it even when Joseph gave it over 100 years ago. They knew exactly where he got his ideas and even openly mentioned it!

 

[SettingDogStar]

9 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

This is a link to a site that discusses exaltation in Royal Arch masonry.

No content similarities whatsoever

The word exaltation simply means being raised to a higher order of masonry. No similarities of signs or what the stand for. No Christian references whatsoever.

Read it and draw your own conclusions

https://www.sacred-texts.com/mas/dun/dun08.htm

Plus it’s not even a Scottish rite so I’m really not sure where he was going with that post.

[mfbukowski]

19 minutes ago, SettingDogStar said:

That’s why I made sure to mention that no one was surprised by it even when Joseph gave it over 100 years ago. They knew exactly where he got his ideas and even openly mentioned it!

 

Exactly!

This is clearly the best answer to all this stuff about masonry.  Nowadays we come across something about masonry, notice a similarity and instantly decide that the "church is false" because some symbol is similar to ours.

But as you say- the founders of the church knew EVERY symbol exactly on both sides - in masonry and in our temple rites- and saw no reason to think or even suggest that because of the similarity the "church is false"

Yet we know better than they did.  Uh huh.  Go figure!!

In masonry there is no emulation of Christ- our ceremonies are totally about emulation of Christ.

[mfbukowski]

42 minutes ago, SettingDogStar said:

Plus it’s not even a Scottish rite so I’m really not sure where he was going with that post.

I am still waiting for my CFR and will pursue it until he retracts the statement or produces the evidence, as board rules dictate.

[mfbukowski]

On 10/3/2019 at 8:35 AM, Kenngo1969 said:

"Mind what you have learned!  Save you, it can!" 

Yeah but that's just a Toy Yoda.  

They have found some  Toy Yodas in archaeological digs that became buried long ago, before we humans were even on the planet!  Those they call the "Toy Yoda, Pre- Us"

 

 

I love to really REACH for stupid puns. 

 

[mfbukowski]

On 10/3/2019 at 4:01 PM, Matt Lohrke said:

This should be expected as the LDS endowment has been repurposed from the Scottish Free Mason Rites of Initiation (called "Exaltation").    This really isn't even debatable.  I can show you a side-by-side comparison.

Christ told us to offer him a broken heart and a contrite spirit.   He said nothing about opulent buildings, special clothing, hand signs, new names, tokens or anything else. 

Board rules dictate that when one receives a Call For Reference ("CFR") one either provides the reference or retracts the statement.  I have called you on this.

I am still waiting for you to do one of these things so you can at least learn that your interpretation is indeed "debatable"

In fact it is one of the main debates on this board. 

So welcome to the board and let's get this completed one way or another. 

Edited October 5, 2019 by mfbukowski

[strappinglad]

From what I have read about the ancient Egyptian temple rites , there are some similarities with our rituals. I wonder if the Egyptians got them from the Masons???

We went from a 3 hour block to a 2 hour one. Someone needs to bite the bullet and schedule a 15-30 minute break between the ward sessions so the parking lot can be cleared. What is the cotton pickin' rush to have all church over by 1 or 2 pm when many wards on the 3 hour block went  until 4 pm ? I'm so old that I remember STARTING  church at 4pm and going until 7.

 

[SettingDogStar]

14 minutes ago, strappinglad said:

From what I have read about the ancient Egyptian temple rites , there are some similarities with our rituals. I wonder if the Egyptians got them from the Masons???

We went from a 3 hour block to a 2 hour one. Someone needs to bite the bullet and schedule a 15-30 minute break between the ward sessions so the parking lot can be cleared. What is the cotton pickin' rush to have all church over by 1 or 2 pm when many wards on the 3 hour block went  until 4 pm ? I'm so old that I remember STARTING  church at 4pm and going until 7.

 

It’d be the other way around, Freemasonry (as an organization) formed in the 1700s. Egyptian rites were  often very sporadic and did differ depending on the era and focus of the current Pharoah. We don’t even have any, that I’m aware of, originals of the Book of the Dead, just later copies. 

This presents a huge problem because the religious focus of the time seemed to emphasis rituals for those who were already dead. Thus any new Books for the Dead that were made reflected this theology, possibly corrupting the original intent. There is evidence that the original purpose was for these rituals (like the Opening of the amount ceremony, which is like our anointing) was solely for the living, but not a lot of primary evidence for this exists yet.

Its similar to why the current bible seems to reflect a monotheistic religion when a decent amount of evidence point to the Israelites being polytheistic originally (see Margaret Barker). However eventually the Jews wanted to be monotheistic so the scriptures were eventually altered or interpreted to reflect that idea.

We’re still not sure exactly where they got their rituals and many speculate it could be a mesh of old Stonemason signs, Egyptian roots,  Gnostics rites, and Coptic ceremonies. Of course even their own rites have been heavily edited and reorganized and even now there is no exact way each lodge must conduct their ceremonies.

Hugh Nibleys work on it is pretty good, if a tiny bit outdated. However, I have a bunch of other fun resources about that, Royal Arch of Enoch Masons, and Egyptian rites.

Edited October 5, 2019 by SettingDogStar

[strappinglad]

4 minutes ago, SettingDogStar said:

It’d be the other way around,

I was being sarcastic but forgot the emoji. 

[Calm]

2 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Board rules dictate that when one receives a Call For Reference ("CFR") one either provides the reference or retracts the statement.  I have called you on this.

I am still waiting for you to do one of these things so you can at least learn that your interpretation is indeed "debatable"

In fact it is one of the main debates on this board. 

So welcome to the board and let's get this completed one way or another. 

According to his profile, he hasn't been back since his bomb drop.  Probably not someone interested in discussion.  Had an hour to kill.

Edited October 5, 2019 by Calm

[Stargazer]

6 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

I repeat that the simple reason I learned was simply that robes should not touch the floor 

Didn't see that.

Also never heard this before. It sounds like one of those non-doctrinal doctrines -- a private interpretation or a theory unsupported by authority, but sounds nice.  Wouldn't it seem to be something universally taught if it were a universal principle?  

[Kenngo1969]

4 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Yeah but that's just a Toy Yoda.  

They have found some  Toy Yodas in archaeological digs that became buried long ago, before we humans were even on the planet!  Those they call the "Toy Yoda, Pre- Us"

 

 

I love to really REACH for stupid puns. 

 

You do an excellent job of it!  Hey, did you hear about the pun contest held one year?  Yeah, there were ten entries, but all of them were so bad that the judges felt that no self-respecting judge of puns would give any of them the award.  So which one won?  Well, no pun in ten did!  

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Stargazer said:

Didn't see that.

Also never heard this before. It sounds like one of those non-doctrinal doctrines -- a private interpretation or a theory unsupported by authority, but sounds nice.  Wouldn't it seem to be something universally taught if it were a universal principle?  

When we kneel at the altar, robes spill over and touch the floor. I have never seen or heard caution to adjust them so they are resting solely on back of legs or the stool.

Edited October 6, 2019 by Calm

[Kenngo1969]

12 hours ago, Calm said:

When we kneel at the altar, robes spill over and touch the floor. I have never seen or heard caution to adjust them so they are resting solely on back of legs or the stool.

Modern-day Pharisees can get their robes in a wad over the strangest things.

P.S.: Many outsiders already consider our approach to faith legalistic, but it's like some people say, "Huh.  You think regular members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are legalistic?  You ain't seen nothin' yet, Pal.  We can come up with rules sufficient in quantity and in complexity to make even the most devout, strictest Jews and Muslims look like pikers by comparison."

 

Edited October 6, 2019 by Kenngo1969

[Kenngo1969]

On 10/3/2019 at 5:01 PM, Matt Lohrke said:

This should be expected as the LDS endowment has been repurposed from the Scottish Free Mason Rites of Initiation (called "Exaltation").    This really isn't even debatable.  I can show you a side-by-side comparison.

Christ told us to offer him a broken heart and a contrite spirit.   He said nothing about opulent buildings, special clothing, hand signs, new names, tokens or anything else. 

Mock much, Matt?  

[SettingDogStar]

5 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

Mock much, Matt?  

I think he ended up being a troll, I fall for it every time haha