Are we, as a church, becoming stiff-necked?

[bluebell]

I've been reading different boards and groups on the internet and while I've read many (hundreds?) of posts on people angry about the things that the Prophet and apostles taught and how the prophets are wrong and shouldn't have taught what they did, I haven't read anyone who said that they need to repent and change their beliefs to more closely align with the teachings at conference (they could be out there, I just haven't seen them).

It makes me wonder, how can we know if we are becoming stiff-necked and unteachable, like the members of the church in the BOM became?   

(I don't want this thread to become about labeling others as stiff necked, I want to discuss the principle in general and not use it as an excuse to be self-righteous).

 

[JLHPROF]

I agree with this except one word - become.

This has always been an issue and lamented in every generation of saints.  Not sure we've "become" anything different than we already were as a body.

Moses' day, Christ's day, Joseph's day, today.  As a whole people don't like to change themselves ir be told what to do.

[Calm]

Quote

I haven't read anyone who said that they need to repent and change their beliefs to more closely align with the teachings at conference (they could be out there, I just haven't seen them).

Most people need awhile after repenting to be comfortable talking about sins, I suspect, so even if people feel they need to repent, unlikely they would share it publicly so soon after deciding that, imo.

I think we have always been stiffnecked for our personal sins (otherwise we would likely change them), it is just easier to speak about our disagreement with instruction these days and find others who feel the same way to support us...so that might lead to reinforcement and strengthening disagreement, but I think it is impossible to compare to times when public communication was lacking (preinternet).

[RevTestament]

17 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I've been reading different boards and groups on the internet and while I've read many (hundreds?) of posts on people angry about the things that the Prophet and apostles taught and how the prophets are wrong and shouldn't have taught what they did, I haven't read anyone who said that they need to repent and change their beliefs to more closely align with the teachings at conference (they could be out there, I just haven't seen them).

It makes me wonder, how can we know if we are becoming stiff-necked and unteachable, like the members of the church in the BOM became?   

(I don't want this thread to become about labeling others as stiff necked, I want to discuss the principle in general and not use it as an excuse to be self-righteous).

It's been my impression for a long time that the Church is a bit prideful about being Mormon and Christian. Perhaps at least 30-40% of members - especially in the intermountain west - seemed to resent any attempt to drop the "Mormon" moniker. Voices of correction about such things - especially from an "outsider" are often ignored or even mumbled about. Pres Hinckley brought up the subject some 18 years ago, and essentially nothing changed. So, it doesn't surprise me the reaction that Pres Nelson is getting about the subject. However, I think he did very well in his talk and talked about the Savior's desire as expressed in scripture to have His Church called after His name. Aren't the people of His Church supposed to follow His commandments? So, I don't really get the resistance. People typically just resist change - including myself. Further, this change specifically requests that they make changes in what they are doing on a somewhat daily basis. It is not some change that won't or will rarely affect them. 

So are members more stiff-necked? I don't really know. I don't really know what they were like 100 years ago, so I feel it is a little unfair of me to make such a judgment. I believe Church members on the whole are striving to be the best they can be. The differences arise on how to do that...

[Rain]

I'm not sure if it is really different either, except now with the Internet it is farther reaching.

Personally, I've talked about "praying" which includes the idea of humbling myself and repentance if needed. I suspect it may be the same for others as well.

After my struggle last night I prayed before watching this morning that I might be able to put those feelings aside and be ready to hear what the Lord wanted me to hear today. I suspect that many won't just share things like that out of the  blue because it may come across as either holier than though or prideful  (because you just announcing to the world that you are now humvle). 

I think, for some people too, it takes time. It's been just over 24 hours since anyone has heard this talk or that talk. 

One of the things I found was that I could not squarely listen today because I could not adequately get past last night. I'm going to have to actually read the talks - audio is my least effective way to learn. 

That isn't to say that I am trying to humble myself to agree with the talks - just that I might hear what the Lord wants me to hear.

[JAHS]

54 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I haven't read anyone who said that they need to repent and change their beliefs to more closely align with the teachings at conference (they could be out there, I just haven't seen them).

Most members might think they need to do better in certain areas, but the faithful members take what they hear in conference as God's will and they try to live it. 
Repenting is a more private thing that most are not going to share on public message boards.
 

[Storm Rider]

 

14 hours ago, bluebell said:

I've been reading different boards and groups on the internet and while I've read many (hundreds?) of posts on people angry about the things that the Prophet and apostles taught and how the prophets are wrong and shouldn't have taught what they did, I haven't read anyone who said that they need to repent and change their beliefs to more closely align with the teachings at conference (they could be out there, I just haven't seen them).

It makes me wonder, how can we know if we are becoming stiff-necked and unteachable, like the members of the church in the BOM became?   

(I don't want this thread to become about labeling others as stiff necked, I want to discuss the principle in general and not use it as an excuse to be self-righteous).

2

Though humans have an innate knack for being stiffnecked and full of pride, I do think that at this particular juncture in time that the membership is going through a period of stiffneckedness. This is evident by the numbers of individuals that have rejected the guidance of the prophets and apostles of Jesus Christ for the past 30 some years.  It is evident that there is not a desire to listen, contemplate, and seek the Holy Spirit; rather we lean unto our own extremely limited understanding and consciously fight against God and his representatives. 

This is easily seen in those who fight against the Church and its leaders for their stand on the human family, the role of motherhood and fatherhood within the bounds that the Lord has set, human sexuality, and the current changes proposed. The Church's positions are in direct conflict with society and the innumerable agendas pushed on the people by the gay activists, feminists, and a host of other groups that have a single message and each of them lead disciples of Christ away from the gospel. 

Edited October 8, 2018 by Storm Rider

[The Nehor]

Not since I started stretching more.

[Robert F. Smith]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

I've been reading different boards and groups on the internet and while I've read many (hundreds?) of posts on people angry about the things that the Prophet and apostles taught and how the prophets are wrong and shouldn't have taught what they did, I haven't read anyone who said that they need to repent and change their beliefs to more closely align with the teachings at conference (they could be out there, I just haven't seen them).

It makes me wonder, how can we know if we are becoming stiff-necked and unteachable, like the members of the church in the BOM became?   

(I don't want this thread to become about labeling others as stiff necked, I want to discuss the principle in general and not use it as an excuse to be self-righteous).

It seems to me that, if anything, the Brethren are loosening things up, and putting the family and friendships.first.  There may be some rigid Mormons out there who might take exception to that, but I don't know to what degree.

[SteveO]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

I've been reading different boards and groups on the internet and while I've read many (hundreds?) of posts on people angry about the things that the Prophet and apostles taught and how the prophets are wrong and shouldn't have taught what they did, I haven't read anyone who said that they need to repent and change their beliefs to more closely align with the teachings at conference (they could be out there, I just haven't seen them).

It makes me wonder, how can we know if we are becoming stiff-necked and unteachable, like the members of the church in the BOM became?   

(I don't want this thread to become about labeling others as stiff necked, I want to discuss the principle in general and not use it as an excuse to be self-righteous).

 

Here’s what my sister just texted me:

“Ok so [my husband and I] were just discussing conference and we both thought it was kinda a buzz kill. Like I’m not really uplifted. I feel awful that so many peoples lives clearly are awful, and they’re just trying to get through life. Conference seemed to be a plea for the beaten down and downtrodden to not give up. I dunno. I feel kinda down because of it”.

I kind of thought the same.  The theme of conference definitely seemed to be trials and difficulties in our personal lives and bringing them to the Savior.  I got the impression that people are just getting worn out.  Maybe people want the answer Naaman wanted to hear, instead of just washing in the Jordan River seven times.  I think the frustration is just taking the form of a “stiff neck” that the answer is what it’s always been: submitting our will to the Lord’s and bringing our burden to the Savior, and not getting the more sensational answer they were wanting to hear.

[Hamba Tuhan]

2 hours ago, bluebell said:

I've been reading different boards and groups on the internet and while I've read many (hundreds?) of posts on people angry about the things that the Prophet and apostles taught and how the prophets are wrong and shouldn't have taught what they did, I haven't read anyone who said that they need to repent and change their beliefs to more closely align with the teachings at conference (they could be out there, I just haven't seen them).

I suspect most Saints who humbly receive the word of the Lord through His prophets don't post about it on the internet. As studies have shown, online forums are mostly megaphones for malcontents.

Quote

It makes me wonder, how can we know if we are becoming stiff-necked and unteachable, like the members of the church in the BOM became?

I think one of the keys is daily immersion in the Book of Mormon so that we can recognise when we are starting to look or sound like prideful Nephites. It's a constant challenge that requires serious vigilance.

[Hamba Tuhan]

24 minutes ago, SteveO said:

I think the frustration is just taking the form of a “stiff neck” that the answer is what it’s always been: submitting our will to the Lord’s and bringing our burden to the Savior, and not getting the more sensational answer they were wanting to hear.

I want to be happy without anyone offering to fix me!

[Duncan]

I don't know if it's stiffneckedness but what do you say to people who don't think they can change and God has given up or cancelled blessings to them because of whatever they think they can't change? i've talked to people that won't believe that God even loves or cares for them anymore because of what they have done or are doing

[Robert F. Smith]

4 hours ago, SteveO said:

Here’s what my sister just texted me:

“Ok so [my husband and I] were just discussing conference and we both thought it was kinda a buzz kill. Like I’m not really uplifted. I feel awful that so many peoples lives clearly are awful, and they’re just trying to get through life. Conference seemed to be a plea for the beaten down and downtrodden to not give up. I dunno. I feel kinda down because of it”.

I kind of thought the same.  The theme of conference definitely seemed to be trials and difficulties in our personal lives and bringing them to the Savior.  I got the impression that people are just getting worn out.  Maybe people want the answer Naaman wanted to hear, instead of just washing in the Jordan River seven times.  I think the frustration is just taking the form of a “stiff neck” that the answer is what it’s always been: submitting our will to the Lord’s and bringing our burden to the Savior, and not getting the more sensational answer they were wanting to hear.

Maybe this is the start of a great winnowing -- getting rid of the chaff.

[Calm]

 

5 hours ago, Duncan said:

I don't know if it's stiffneckedness but what do you say to people who don't think they can change and God has given up or cancelled blessings to them because of whatever they think they can't change? i've talked to people that won't believe that God even loves or cares for them anymore because of what they have done or are doing

My experience is you can't really say anything, but just love and be there for them as much as possible (and honestly sometimes you can't be there because it will destroy you as their needs may be a vacuum sucking up anything you can offer and there are others who are depending on you, sometimes you have to trust God to care for others on his own even if you can't see how he is doing it).

[randy]

4 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Maybe this is the start of a great winnowing -- getting rid of the chaff.

I agree with you.  I would've liked to think I would have been on the ARK...but....              My wife and I discussed this at length yesterday evening. We have a large family..6 kids with 22 (soon to be 23) grandkids...and I just posted on our family web page what my feelings were...and what my hopes were coming from this Conference.  Truth is..all things considered,  I am far far far from being where I need to be (and where I thought I would be)   with respect to my relationship with the Savior.  At 61, I truly thought I would be a bit more on solid ground.  Having said that...the distinct impressions and feelings I've had from the last two conferences have significantly helped in shaking and waking me up!    I honestly feel as though I am participating in  a "great awakening" if you will of whether or not I will find myself on the "Ark" or whether I will be on the "outside looking in".   I am choosing this day to make ALL the necessary changes to make sure I am doing everything in my power to be the kind of Husband, Father and Grandfather my Savior wants and knows that I can be.

This is an exciting time ….and I look forward to doing my part in helping the work move forward.  Just going to focus on eating the Elephant a bite at a time....and see what happens!

[Stargazer]

9 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

I suspect most Saints who humbly receive the word of the Lord through His prophets don't post about it on the internet. As studies have shown, online forums are mostly megaphones for malcontents.

Hey, stop talking about me!  Grrrr.

9 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

I think one of the keys is daily immersion in the Book of Mormon so that we can recognise when we are starting to look or sound like prideful Nephites. It's a constant challenge that requires serious vigilance.

Now yer talkin'.

[Stargazer]

9 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

I want to be happy without anyone offering to fix me!

{Puts away screwdriver]

[Storm Rider]

12 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

It seems to me that, if anything, the Brethren are loosening things up, and putting the family and friendships.first.  There may be some rigid Mormons out there who might take exception to that, but I don't know to what degree.

Robert, I agree with you; the Brethren are removing the functioning church meetings. This, in turn, puts more responsibilities on the individual and the family to teach the gospel and express our faith and commitment to living the gospel. They have not loosened up the teachings and doctrines of eternity that lead to happiness and spiritual safety. 

[bluebell]

14 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

I agree with this except one word - become.

This has always been an issue and lamented in every generation of saints.  Not sure we've "become" anything different than we already were as a body.

Moses' day, Christ's day, Joseph's day, today.  As a whole people don't like to change themselves ir be told what to do.

I decided to use the word become because the examples in the BOM illustrate that God's people are not always, as a people, stiff necked and uninterested in following the guidance of the prophets.  It seems to be a cycle where members of the church wax and wane.  I'm wondering if we are in a season where many members of the church are more likely to chafe at prophetic council and teaching than accept, and if we are, how we would know that.

Edited October 8, 2018 by bluebell

[bluebell]

14 hours ago, Calm said:

Most people need awhile after repenting to be comfortable talking about sins, I suspect, so even if people feel they need to repent, unlikely they would share it publicly so soon after deciding that, imo.

I think we have always been stiffnecked for our personal sins (otherwise we would likely change them), it is just easier to speak about our disagreement with instruction these days and find others who feel the same way to support us...so that might lead to reinforcement and strengthening disagreement, but I think it is impossible to compare to times when public communication was lacking (preinternet).

Good points.

[halconero]

1 minute ago, bluebell said:

I decided to use the word become because the examples in the BOM illustrate that God's people are not always, as a people, stiff necked and uninterested in following the guidance of the prophets.  It seems to be a cycle where members of the church wax and wane.  I'm wondering if we are in a season where many members of the church are more likely to chaff at prophetic council and teaching than accept, and if we are, how we would know that.

I think we are. I fully expext contention within the church to reach a crescendo prior to the establishment of the literal Zion.

[bluebell]

13 hours ago, RevTestament said:

It's been my impression for a long time that the Church is a bit prideful about being Mormon and Christian. Perhaps at least 30-40% of members - especially in the intermountain west - seemed to resent any attempt to drop the "Mormon" moniker. Voices of correction about such things - especially from an "outsider" are often ignored or even mumbled about. Pres Hinckley brought up the subject some 18 years ago, and essentially nothing changed. So, it doesn't surprise me the reaction that Pres Nelson is getting about the subject. However, I think he did very well in his talk and talked about the Savior's desire as expressed in scripture to have His Church called after His name. Aren't the people of His Church supposed to follow His commandments? So, I don't really get the resistance. People typically just resist change - including myself. Further, this change specifically requests that they make changes in what they are doing on a somewhat daily basis. It is not some change that won't or will rarely affect them. 

So are members more stiff-necked? I don't really know. I don't really know what they were like 100 years ago, so I feel it is a little unfair of me to make such a judgment. I believe Church members on the whole are striving to be the best they can be. The differences arise on how to do that...

Good thoughts.

It is kind of funny how a few members (that i've seen online) have reacted to Pres. Nelson's request to drop the terms Mormon and LDS.  Our ancestors had to walk across the plains but not using the term mormon is too much of a sacrifice to ask.  

You're right though in that few of us naturally enjoy change and some of us like to vent and grumble before doing what we've been asked (myself included).  

[bluebell]

13 hours ago, Rain said:

I'm not sure if it is really different either, except now with the Internet it is farther reaching.

Personally, I've talked about "praying" which includes the idea of humbling myself and repentance if needed. I suspect it may be the same for others as well.

After my struggle last night I prayed before watching this morning that I might be able to put those feelings aside and be ready to hear what the Lord wanted me to hear today. I suspect that many won't just share things like that out of the  blue because it may come across as either holier than though or prideful  (because you just announcing to the world that you are now humvle). 

I think, for some people too, it takes time. It's been just over 24 hours since anyone has heard this talk or that talk. 

One of the things I found was that I could not squarely listen today because I could not adequately get past last night. I'm going to have to actually read the talks - audio is my least effective way to learn. 

That isn't to say that I am trying to humble myself to agree with the talks - just that I might hear what the Lord wants me to hear.

I'm out of rep points again, so is the best I can do right now.   

[bluebell]

13 hours ago, JAHS said:

Most members might think they need to do better in certain areas, but the faithful members take what they hear in conference as God's will and they try to live it. 
Repenting is a more private thing that most are not going to share on public message boards.
 

Good point about repenting being private.