Pres. Nelson and alcoholic lawyer lady

[Duncan]

“The mission president had arranged for the Church's local legal counsel, a young woman lawyer, to assist the visiting Church leaders in procuring a suitable building for meetings. When the mission president had called her the previous evening to confirm the appointment with Elders Nelson and Ringger the following day, she sounded somewhat inebriated on the telephone. With unsteady speech, she explained that she had lost two court cases that week and was feeling a little down. "I will meet you tomorrow," she slurred. "Long live Serbia!" When the Brethren met with her the next morning, they noticed that she had obviously applied her makeup with an unsteady hand. Nevertheless, they forged ahead with their search.

The lawyer had, indeed, done her homework, and the Brethren were pleased with some of the alternatives she showed them, especially a substantial three-story house constructed of granite and located in a good neighborhood close to several embassies. Following the search, the mission president apologized profusely to Elder Nelson for having retained a lawyer who was given to drink. Elder Nelson placed his hand on the young mission president's shoulder and said, "Just look at her situation. Here she is, unmarried, living alone, and trying her best to compete in a male-dominated society in a male-dominated profession. The Savior has a soft spot in His heart for young women like her."

Smac97's Pope story reminded me of this episode,it took place somewhere in Eastern Europe and I was wondering what "all yall" thought of it?

[smac97]

10 minutes ago, Duncan said:

Smac97's Pope story reminded me of this episode,it took place somewhere in Eastern Europe and I was wondering what "all yall" thought of it?

It makes me think that the Atonement will have a very far-reaching impact.  We will each be judged with mercy.  We will each be judged under that measure of light and knowledge that has been given to us individually. 

I think this will swing both ways.  Consider Mosiah 3:11:

Quote

For behold, and also his blood atoneth for the sins of those who have fallen by the transgression of Adam, who have died not knowing the will of God concerning them, or who have ignorantly sinned.

I think we humans are not very good at sorting out sins borne of ignorance from sins borne of intentional disobedience/rebellion.  Fortunately, we generally don't have to worry about such differentiations.  It's pretty much not up to us.  "I, the Lord, will forgive whom I will forgive, but of you it is required to forgive all men."  (D&C 64:10).

Conversely, those for those who receive greater light and knowledge, and then sin against it, are in danger.  We have warnings such as in D&C 82:

Quote

1 Verily, verily, I say unto you, my servants, that inasmuch as you have forgiven one another your trespasses, even so I, the Lord, forgive you.
2 Nevertheless, there are those among you who have sinned exceedingly; yea, even all of you have sinned; but verily I say unto you, beware from henceforth, and refrain from sin, lest sore judgments fall upon your heads.
3 For of him unto whom much is given much is required; and he who sins against the greater light shall receive the greater condemnation.

Also consider Matthew 7:

Quote

21 ¶ Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Again, however, it's not really our place to try to discern to whom these passages apply.  We usually just don't have all the facts.  We generally lack the information, or the stewardship, or both, to judge others.

This is a helpful reminder to me.  I am also reminded of a passage from chapter 14 of C.S. Lewis' The Last Battle, which describes those who are ushered through the "door" by Aslan (a Christ figure) (emphasis added):

Quote

The light from behind them (and a little to their right) was so strong that it lit up even the slopes of the Northern Moors. Something was moving there. Enormous animals were crawling and sliding down into Narnia: great dragons and giant lizards and featherless birds with wings like bat's wings. They disappeared into the woods and for a few minutes there was silence. Then there came—at first from very far off—sounds of wailing and then, from every direction, a rustling and a pattering and a sound of wings. It came nearer and nearer. Soon one could distinguish the scamper of little feet from the padding of big paws, and the clack-clack of light little hoofs from the thunder of great ones. And then one could see thousands of pairs of eyes gleaming. And at last, out of the shadow of the trees, racing up the hill for dear life, by thousands and by millions, came all kinds of creatures—Talking Beasts, Dwarfs, Satyrs, Fauns, Giants, Calormenes, men from Archenland, Monopods, and strange unearthly things from the remote islands or the unknown Western lands. And all these ran up to the doorway where Aslan stood.

This part of the adventure was the only one which seemed rather like a dream at the time and rather hard to remember properly afterwards. Especially, one couldn't say how long it had taken. Sometimes it seemed to have lasted only a few minutes, but at others it felt as if it might have gone on for years. Obviously, unless either the Door had grown very much larger or the creatures had suddenly grown as small as gnats, a crowd like that couldn't ever have tried to get through it. But no one thought about that sort of thing at the time.

The creatures came rushing on, their eyes brighter and brighter as they drew nearer and nearer to the standing Stars. But as they came right up to Aslan one or other of two things happened to each of them. They all looked straight in his face; I don't think they had any choice about that. And when some looked, the expression of their faces changed terribly—it was fear and hatred: except that, on the faces of Talking Beasts, the fear and hatred lasted only for a fraction of a second. You could see that they suddenly ceased to be Talking Beasts. They were just ordinary animals. And all the creatures who looked at Aslan in that way swerved to their right, his left, and disappeared into his huge black shadow, which (as you have heard) streamed away to the left of the doorway. The children never saw them again. I don't know what became of them. But the others looked in the face of Aslan and loved him, though some of them were very frightened at the same time. And all these came in at the Door, in on Aslan's right. There were some queer specimens among them. Eustace even recognised one of those very Dwarfs who had helped to shoot the Horses. But he had no time to wonder about that sort of thing (and anyway it was no business of his) for a great joy put everything else out of his head. Among the happy creatures who now came crowding round Tirian and his friends were all those whom they had thought dead. There was Roonwit the Centaur and Jewel the Unicorn, and the good Boar and the good Bear and Farsight the Eagle, and the dear Dogs and the Horses, and Poggin the Dwarf.

I really like here how Lewis notes that "Eustace even recognised one of those very Dwarfs who had helped to shoot the Horses," which is a callback to events in chapter 11.  The king of Narnia, Tirian, is attempting to rally the good Narnians to his side in a battle against the Calormenes, when some of his subjects - the dwarfs - commit a great treachery:

Quote

Boom—boom—ba-ba-boom went the horrible drum. Then another sound began to mix with it. "Listen!" said Jewel: and then "Look!" said Farsight. A moment later there was no doubt what is was. With a thunder of hoofs, with tossing heads, widened nostrils, and waving manes, over a score of Talking Horses of Narnia came charging up the hill. The gnawers and nibblers had done their work.

Poggin the Dwarf and the children opened their mouths to cheer but that cheer never came. Suddenly the air was full of the sound of twanging bow-strings and hissing arrows. It was the Dwarfs who were shooting and—for a moment Jill could hardly believe her eyes—they were shooting the Horses. Dwarfs are deadly archers. Horse after horse rolled over. Not one of those noble Beasts ever reached the King.

"Little swine," shrieked Eustace, dancing in his rage. "Dirty, filthy, treacherous little brutes." Even Jewel said, "Shall I run after those Dwarfs, Sire, and spit ten of them on my horn at each plunge?" But Tirian, with his face as stern as stone, said, "Stand fast, Jewel. If you must weep, sweetheart (this was to Jill) turn your face aside and see you wet not your bowstring. And peace, Eustace. Do not scold, like a kitchen-girl. No warrior scolds. Courteous words or else hard knocks are his only language."

But the Dwarfs jeered back at Eustace. "That was a surprise for you, little boy, eh? Thought we were on your side, did you? No fear. We don't want any Talking Horses. We don't want you to win any more than the other gang. You can't take us in. The Dwarfs are for the Dwarfs."

So despite having participated in a great treachery, "one of those very Dwarfs who had helped to shoot the Horses" is nevertheless ushered to Aslan's right.

It's no business of ours to try to sort out who will go Aslan's right or left.  It's no business of ours to adjudicate or guess at such things.

Thanks,

-Smac

[RevTestament]

1 hour ago, Duncan said:

“The mission president had arranged for the Church's local legal counsel, a young woman lawyer, to assist the visiting Church leaders in procuring a suitable building for meetings. When the mission president had called her the previous evening to confirm the appointment with Elders Nelson and Ringger the following day, she sounded somewhat inebriated on the telephone. With unsteady speech, she explained that she had lost two court cases that week and was feeling a little down. "I will meet you tomorrow," she slurred. "Long live Serbia!" When the Brethren met with her the next morning, they noticed that she had obviously applied her makeup with an unsteady hand. Nevertheless, they forged ahead with their search.

The lawyer had, indeed, done her homework, and the Brethren were pleased with some of the alternatives she showed them, especially a substantial three-story house constructed of granite and located in a good neighborhood close to several embassies. Following the search, the mission president apologized profusely to Elder Nelson for having retained a lawyer who was given to drink. Elder Nelson placed his hand on the young mission president's shoulder and said, "Just look at her situation. Here she is, unmarried, living alone, and trying her best to compete in a male-dominated society in a male-dominated profession. The Savior has a soft spot in His heart for young women like her."

Smac97's Pope story reminded me of this episode,it took place somewhere in Eastern Europe and I was wondering what "all yall" thought of it?

The proscription against drinking has become very strong in the Church. Somewhere along the line something that was expressly NOT given by way of commandment became "a commandment." Yet I have never really seen where. If you want a temple recommend, you are admonished to follow the word of wisdom, but that still is not a commandment. It seems to me that the Mormon cultural norm has grown so strong so as to make one talk about drinking alcohol like it is a sin. See Smac's comment above: 

Quote

I think we humans are not very good at sorting out sins borne of ignorance from sins borne of intentional disobedience/rebellion.  Fortunately, we generally don't have to worry about such differentiations.  It's pretty much not up to us.  "I, the Lord, will forgive whom I will forgive, but of you it is required to forgive all men."  (D&C 64:10).

This is so much so, that Duncan entitled this thread with "alcoholic lawyer." One instance of inebriation hardly qualifies someone as an alcoholic. Alcoholics have a habit they cannot break - they generally are physically addicted to alcohol. I have been inebriated before, but I was far from an alcoholic. 

I'm sure I will get smacked upside the head with my comments, but I think the push to cause everyone to conform can sometimes come across as a holier than thou attitude, which turns others off. IMHO, the woman did not sin. She succumbed to a weakness which hopefully did not become a habit.

[stemelbow]

1 hour ago, Duncan said:

“The mission president had arranged for the Church's local legal counsel, a young woman lawyer, to assist the visiting Church leaders in procuring a suitable building for meetings. When the mission president had called her the previous evening to confirm the appointment with Elders Nelson and Ringger the following day, she sounded somewhat inebriated on the telephone. With unsteady speech, she explained that she had lost two court cases that week and was feeling a little down. "I will meet you tomorrow," she slurred. "Long live Serbia!" When the Brethren met with her the next morning, they noticed that she had obviously applied her makeup with an unsteady hand. Nevertheless, they forged ahead with their search.

The lawyer had, indeed, done her homework, and the Brethren were pleased with some of the alternatives she showed them, especially a substantial three-story house constructed of granite and located in a good neighborhood close to several embassies. Following the search, the mission president apologized profusely to Elder Nelson for having retained a lawyer who was given to drink. Elder Nelson placed his hand on the young mission president's shoulder and said, "Just look at her situation. Here she is, unmarried, living alone, and trying her best to compete in a male-dominated society in a male-dominated profession. The Savior has a soft spot in His heart for young women like her."

Smac97's Pope story reminded me of this episode,it took place somewhere in Eastern Europe and I was wondering what "all yall" thought of it?

who are you quoting?  Any references?  

[Jeanne]

1 hour ago, Duncan said:

“The mission president had arranged for the Church's local legal counsel, a young woman lawyer, to assist the visiting Church leaders in procuring a suitable building for meetings. When the mission president had called her the previous evening to confirm the appointment with Elders Nelson and Ringger the following day, she sounded somewhat inebriated on the telephone. With unsteady speech, she explained that she had lost two court cases that week and was feeling a little down. "I will meet you tomorrow," she slurred. "Long live Serbia!" When the Brethren met with her the next morning, they noticed that she had obviously applied her makeup with an unsteady hand. Nevertheless, they forged ahead with their search.

The lawyer had, indeed, done her homework, and the Brethren were pleased with some of the alternatives she showed them, especially a substantial three-story house constructed of granite and located in a good neighborhood close to several embassies. Following the search, the mission president apologized profusely to Elder Nelson for having retained a lawyer who was given to drink. Elder Nelson placed his hand on the young mission president's shoulder and said, "Just look at her situation. Here she is, unmarried, living alone, and trying her best to compete in a male-dominated society in a male-dominated profession. The Savior has a soft spot in His heart for young women like her."

Smac97's Pope story reminded me of this episode,it took place somewhere in Eastern Europe and I was wondering what "all yall" thought of it?

This is so nice...I appreciate the good things I hear.

[Stargazer]

2 hours ago, Duncan said:

“The mission president had arranged for the Church's local legal counsel, a young woman lawyer, to assist the visiting Church leaders in procuring a suitable building for meetings. When the mission president had called her the previous evening to confirm the appointment with Elders Nelson and Ringger the following day, she sounded somewhat inebriated on the telephone. With unsteady speech, she explained that she had lost two court cases that week and was feeling a little down. "I will meet you tomorrow," she slurred. "Long live Serbia!" When the Brethren met with her the next morning, they noticed that she had obviously applied her makeup with an unsteady hand. Nevertheless, they forged ahead with their search.

The lawyer had, indeed, done her homework, and the Brethren were pleased with some of the alternatives she showed them, especially a substantial three-story house constructed of granite and located in a good neighborhood close to several embassies. Following the search, the mission president apologized profusely to Elder Nelson for having retained a lawyer who was given to drink. Elder Nelson placed his hand on the young mission president's shoulder and said, "Just look at her situation. Here she is, unmarried, living alone, and trying her best to compete in a male-dominated society in a male-dominated profession. The Savior has a soft spot in His heart for young women like her."

Smac97's Pope story reminded me of this episode,it took place somewhere in Eastern Europe and I was wondering what "all yall" thought of it?

I don't know about me, but there will be some here who will feel that this story is a pathetic attempt to paint the patriarchal, oligarchical, and monopolistic Church falsely as a caring, gentle and loving organization that really seeks the best for people.  It's all just for show, with nothing behind it but a despicable and sly PR department, ready, willing and able to pull the wool over the unfortunate people of the earth.

[Duncan]

31 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

who are you quoting?  Any references?  

it's in Spencer Condie's book about Pres. Nelson

https://deseretbook.com/p/russell-m-nelson-father-surgeon-apostle-spencer-j-condie-1886?variant_id=148491-paperback

[Duncan]

34 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

The proscription against drinking has become very strong in the Church. Somewhere along the line something that was expressly NOT given by way of commandment became "a commandment." Yet I have never really seen where. If you want a temple recommend, you are admonished to follow the word of wisdom, but that still is not a commandment. It seems to me that the Mormon cultural norm has grown so strong so as to make one talk about drinking alcohol like it is a sin. See Smac's comment above: 

This is so much so, that Duncan entitled this thread with "alcoholic lawyer." One instance of inebriation hardly qualifies someone as an alcoholic. Alcoholics have a habit they cannot break - they generally are physically addicted to alcohol. I have been inebriated before, but I was far from an alcoholic. 

I'm sure I will get smacked upside the head with my comments, but I think the push to cause everyone to conform can sometimes come across as a holier than thou attitude, which turns others off. IMHO, the woman did not sin. She succumbed to a weakness which hopefully did not become a habit.

it sounds like she was "given to drink" to me it sounds like she was more than a social drinker

[Tacenda]

34 minutes ago, Duncan said:

it sounds like she was "given to drink" to me it sounds like she was more than a social drinker

How do you know the lady that found housing for the presidency was drinking alcohol? It could have been she had just taken a prescription for sleep, or an opioid of some kind, maybe for pain or whatever. Just wondering how you know is was alcohol.

[Duncan]

25 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

How do you know the lady that found housing for the presidency was drinking alcohol? It could have been she had just taken a prescription for sleep, or an opioid of some kind, maybe for pain or whatever. Just wondering how you know is was alcohol.

all I know is what it said in the account, it sounded like she was inebriated on the phone and was "given to drink" so, to them at least it sounded and looked like she was a tosspot

Edited May 21, 2018 by Duncan

[Marginal Gains]

2 minutes ago, Duncan said:

all I know is what it said in the account, it sounded like she was inebriated on the phone and was "given to drink" so, to them at least it sounded and looked like she was a tosspot

Does it list the dates of the story or the mission presidents name?

[Duncan]

6 minutes ago, Marginal Gains said:

Does it list the dates of the story or the mission presidents name?

I am guessing April 1987 ish, these are the paragraphs that precede the story, 

"Elder Nelson's first apostolic visit to Yugoslavia came in mid-April 1987. In the company of Elder Ringger and the Austria Vienna Mission president, Elder Nelson traveled to Zagreb to meet with Brother C´osic´ and Ivan Valek, Zagreb branch president. Brother C´osic´ had made arrangements for Elder Nelson to meet with key government officials in both Croatia and Serbia to discuss the possibility of broadening the scope of the Church's activities in Yugoslavia.13

The next day, the brethren drove to Beograd, Yugoslavia' s capital, and met with Radovan Samardz´ic´, the nation's minister of religious affairs. Elder Nelson gave him a brief presentation about the Church and its people, including data on the healthy lifestyle of Church members.14

Elder Nelson then broached several issues that concerned the Church, including expansion of its missionary force, renewal of visas, purchase of buildings and property (for chapels), and limitations on holding meetings. Minister Samardz´ic´ said officials knew something of the Church and of Kres?imir's membership in it. He was receptive but insisted that branch meetings be held in buildings with public access rather than in member apartments.15 At the Church's chapel in Zagreb, government officials would occasionally visit branch meetings. Members, nervous whenever the missionaries referred to "investigators" attending their meetings, assumed that the investigators were government officials.

At the close of their discussion, Elder Nelson presented the minister with a gift, and he reciprocated by giving Elder Nelson a copy of a paperback book he had written. Minister Samardz´ic´ then asked Kresimir to autograph a piece of paper that he could take home to his young son, who idolized the athlete."

The 13 and 14 are the citations for Pres. Nelson's personal journal but the story doesn't have any citations so I am guessing it was April of 1987 ish.

[rongo]

Kresimir Cosic was amazing! He was arguably the best basketball player ever to play at BYU, joined the Church, and gave up a lucrative NBA career to go back home and build up the Church in Croatia (and build up basketball). He translated the BoM into Croatian.

The branch president and his family in Wilhelmshaven (North Sea Coast of Germany) were Croatian while I was there in the mid 1990s, and man, did their faces light up when talking about Kresimir Cosic! He really left an impact with his life. 

[juliann]

It sounds like it goes with Elder so and so talked to famous person on a plane story.  And being unmarried and living alone doesn't drive one to drink, quite the opposite for a good many I suspect....

[Marginal Gains]

3 hours ago, Duncan said:

“The mission president had arranged for the Church's local legal counsel, a young woman lawyer, to assist the visiting Church leaders in procuring a suitable building for meetings. When the mission president had called her the previous evening to confirm the appointment with Elders Nelson and Ringger the following day, she sounded somewhat inebriated on the telephone. With unsteady speech, she explained that she had lost two court cases that week and was feeling a little down. "I will meet you tomorrow," she slurred. "Long live Serbia!" When the Brethren met with her the next morning, they noticed that she had obviously applied her makeup with an unsteady hand. Nevertheless, they forged ahead with their search.

The lawyer had, indeed, done her homework, and the Brethren were pleased with some of the alternatives she showed them, especially a substantial three-story house constructed of granite and located in a good neighborhood close to several embassies. Following the search, the mission president apologized profusely to Elder Nelson for having retained a lawyer who was given to drink. Elder Nelson placed his hand on the young mission president's shoulder and said, "Just look at her situation. Here she is, unmarried, living alone, and trying her best to compete in a male-dominated society in a male-dominated profession. The Savior has a soft spot in His heart for young women like her."

Smac97's Pope story reminded me of this episode,it took place somewhere in Eastern Europe and I was wondering what "all yall" thought of it?

Oh, the irony...

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, Stargazer said:

I don't know about me, but there will be some here who will feel that this story is a pathetic attempt to paint the patriarchal, oligarchical, and monopolistic Church falsely as a caring, gentle and loving organization that really seeks the best for people.  It's all just for show, with nothing behind it but a despicable and sly PR department, ready, willing and able to pull the wool over the unfortunate people of the earth.

I believe the story and like what I see!

[strappinglad]

19 minutes ago, Marginal Gains said:

Oh, the irony...

In the same way that different people hear the words Laurel or Yanny in the latest internet challenge ( apparently because people are biologically tuned in to higher or lower frequencies ) , different people will see the same story and interpret it differently because the are spiritually /culturally tuned in to different frequencies.

[sunstoned]

5 hours ago, Duncan said:

“The mission president had arranged for the Church's local legal counsel, a young woman lawyer, to assist the visiting Church leaders in procuring a suitable building for meetings. When the mission president had called her the previous evening to confirm the appointment with Elders Nelson and Ringger the following day, she sounded somewhat inebriated on the telephone. With unsteady speech, she explained that she had lost two court cases that week and was feeling a little down. "I will meet you tomorrow," she slurred. "Long live Serbia!" When the Brethren met with her the next morning, they noticed that she had obviously applied her makeup with an unsteady hand. Nevertheless, they forged ahead with their search.

The lawyer had, indeed, done her homework, and the Brethren were pleased with some of the alternatives she showed them, especially a substantial three-story house constructed of granite and located in a good neighborhood close to several embassies. Following the search, the mission president apologized profusely to Elder Nelson for having retained a lawyer who was given to drink. Elder Nelson placed his hand on the young mission president's shoulder and said, "Just look at her situation. Here she is, unmarried, living alone, and trying her best to compete in a male-dominated society in a male-dominated profession. The Savior has a soft spot in His heart for young women like her."

Smac97's Pope story reminded me of this episode,it took place somewhere in Eastern Europe and I was wondering what "all yall" thought of it?

Props to pres. Nelson.  Less judgement and more understanding is what this world needs. 

[sunstoned]

3 hours ago, RevTestament said:

The proscription against drinking has become very strong in the Church. Somewhere along the line something that was expressly NOT given by way of commandment became "a commandment." Yet I have never really seen where. If you want a temple recommend, you are admonished to follow the word of wisdom, but that still is not a commandment. It seems to me that the Mormon cultural norm has grown so strong so as to make one talk about drinking alcohol like it is a sin. See Smac's comment above: 

This is so much so, that Duncan entitled this thread with "alcoholic lawyer." One instance of inebriation hardly qualifies someone as an alcoholic. Alcoholics have a habit they cannot break - they generally are physically addicted to alcohol. I have been inebriated before, but I was far from an alcoholic. 

I'm sure I will get smacked upside the head with my comments, but I think the push to cause everyone to conform can sometimes come across as a holier than thou attitude, which turns others off. IMHO, the woman did not sin. She succumbed to a weakness which hopefully did not become a habit.

I wish I could give you more than one up vote on this.  I agree 100%.

[mrmarklin]

4 hours ago, RevTestament said:

The proscription against drinking has become very strong in the Church. Somewhere along the line something that was expressly NOT given by way of commandment became "a commandment." Yet I have never really seen where. If you want a temple recommend, you are admonished to follow the word of wisdom, but that still is not a commandment. It seems to me that the Mormon cultural norm has grown so strong so as to make one talk about drinking alcohol like it is a sin. See Smac's comment above: 

This is so much so, that Duncan entitled this thread with "alcoholic lawyer." One instance of inebriation hardly qualifies someone as an alcoholic. Alcoholics have a habit they cannot break - they generally are physically addicted to alcohol. I have been inebriated before, but I was far from an alcoholic. 

I'm sure I will get smacked upside the head with my comments, but I think the push to cause everyone to conform can sometimes come across as a holier than thou attitude, which turns others off. IMHO, the woman did not sin. She succumbed to a weakness which hopefully did not become a habit.

Thanks for this insight.  I deal with people all the time that are not Mormons, and I'm sure a lot of them drink.  All my best friends are beer drinkers and when we are out together they certainly hoist a few!  None are alcoholics AFAIK.

I have had to fire an alcoholic employee.  I gave her a lot of chances, to no avail.

And I agree that in Mormon culture that breaking WOW is a big sin and yes, evil..  My mother (hard rock Utah Mormon) was immersed with the idea that anyone who smoked, for example, was a "bad" person.

 

BTW in most if not all European countries drinking alcohol is not considered a weakness.  Just for the record.

Edited May 21, 2018 by mrmarklin

[pogi]

5 hours ago, Duncan said:

"Long live Serbia!"

That's my favorite part of the story 

[RevTestament]

8 minutes ago, mrmarklin said:

Thanks for this insight.  I deal with people all the time that are not Mormons, and I'm sure a lot of them drink.  All my best friends are beer drinkers and when we are out together they certainly hoist a few!  None are alcoholics AFAIK.

I have had to fire an alcoholic employee.  I gave her a lot of chances, to no avail.

And I agree that in Mormon culture that breaking WOW is a big sin and yes, evil..  My mother (hard rock Utah Mormon) was immersed with the idea that anyone who smoked, for example, was a "bad" person.

 

BTW in most if not all European countries drinking alcohol is not considered a weakness.  Just for the record.

Back in my college days I did a little social drinking. This usually consisted of drinking one or two draft beers once a week - not even enough for a buzz. I hated keg beer, but did drink a handful of cups. I also hated canned beers - esp lite beers. I was not active at the time. On a handful of occasions I had some mixed alcoholic drinks. I got drunk once on Mad Dog - something I do not ever plan to repeat, and once on beer trying to beat a friend at quarters. I still think I held my alcohol better, but he was the better quarters player....nuf said. Hopefully, my comments are not taken as favorable towards alcohol. Alcohol abuse is back on the rise in the U.S. - dramatically. However, I view a glass of wine or a beer or two as basically harmless - unless one is a minor while the brain is still growing. However, I have abstained since reactivating in the Church, and do not encourage use of alcohol to temple-going members, even though I do not believe its use is a sin. Any more than a little is unhealthy even for adults. Smoking is bad, but it doesn't make one a "bad" person. It is an expensive and unhealthy habit. I believe most anything addictive is unhealthy. I also avoid caffeine because I believe its stimulation of cortisol is unhealthy on a regular basis. So I think the word of wisdom as contained in D&C is spot on, and have experienced relatively good health. I haven't seen a doctor (excepting a nurse practitioner) in years, except for a hernia surgery last year.

[Calm]

3 hours ago, Duncan said:

all I know is what it said in the account, it sounded like she was inebriated on the phone and was "given to drink" so, to them at least it sounded and looked like she was a tosspot

I agree "given to drink" sounds habitual, though habitual doesn't equate to alcoholic, imo, as those are generally considered addicts so I think assuming alcoholic is probably a stretch, imo.

And the mission president may have made the comment of "given to drink" based on ongoing experience with the woman and not just that one time.  It is possible she was chosen because a member recommended her and she might have been used before quite a bit because she was effective even if careless with drinking at times.  The MP might not have minded it himself since he was familiar with the culture which includes a lot of drinking apparently, but it would be embarrassing in front of others.

https://inserbia.info/today/2013/05/serbia-fourth-in-europe-in-alcohol-consumption/

http://www.balkaninsight.com/en/blog/time-to-change-the-drinking-culture-in-the-balkans-08-05-2016

Quote

Starting the day with a shot of rakija is “healthy” in our mindset - if not physically, then socially. And it’s this attitude which concerns many authorities. While we certainly drink too much, our per-capita alcohol consumption is not so worrying for doctors as our attitude towards that drinking - largely because a blase attitude towards problematic drinking can tacitly encourage a climate in which vulnerable individuals develop alcoholism.

The scale of alcohol consumption in most Balkan nations is staggering. Compared to other nations, we dwarf non-European countries in the drinking stakes, and even pull ahead of hard-drinking European nations like Germany and the UK.

While our near neighbours the Czech Republic and Lithuania, have the edge on us, our drinking patterns are still up there with the most unhealthy.

Now, an unhealthy drinking pattern does not necessarily make one an “alcoholic”.

The definition of what constitutes full-blown alcoholism varies from nation to nation. Many European drinkers would be considered “alcoholics” by US standards, and we would all be, by Saudi Arabian standards. Nonetheless, when alcohol usage starts to impact upon someone’s personal health or their lifestyle, and when they start to prioritize alcohol and alcohol-seeking behaviours above all else, things have to be considered problematic. And it can’t be denied that the Balkan nations - like Estonia, have a huge problem with alcohol-related illness and lifestyle deterioration. But nobody seems to care - and that’s perhaps more worrying even than the problem itself as it currently stands, because it means that things are likely to get worse.

 

Edited May 21, 2018 by Calm

[Stargazer]

2 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I believe the story and like what I see!

Then perhaps you are selectively believing.  In another thread all kinds of suspicions are being expressed over the timing of the NAACP/LDS meeting and announcement.  

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[CA Steve]

3 hours ago, juliann said:

It sounds like it goes with Elder so and so talked to famous person on a plane story.  And being unmarried and living alone doesn't drive one to drink, quite the opposite for a good many I suspect....

So not being female, maybe It's just me, but this line in the story

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 Elder Nelson placed his hand on the young mission president's shoulder and said, "Just look at her situation. Here she is, unmarried, living alone, and trying her best to compete in a male-dominated society in a male-dominated profession. The Savior has a soft spot in His heart for young women like her."

is hugely condescending to me.

How does being unmarried, living alone and "trying her best" have anything to do with whether or not the Savior has a soft spot for this person? As if these things are supposed to be to  difficulties this woman had to overcome which led to her drinking. For all anyone knows, she enjoys being single, likes living by herself and may have no problems working as a lawyer.

I expect many will disagree, but what I see is a unconsciously condescending comment by someone who still thinks women want to  be home raising children for their husbands instead.

Edited May 21, 2018 by CA Steve