Pres. Nelson and alcoholic lawyer lady

[pogi]

1 hour ago, Marginal Gains said:

*ahem* same sex marriage *ahem* medicinal marijuana *ahem*

So any organization who offers public opinions about legislation is an intervening government in international affairs and is to blame for not preventing atrocities in Siberia?

Edited May 22, 2018 by pogi

[stemelbow]

12 minutes ago, pogi said:

So any organization who offers public opinions about legislation is an intervening government in international affairs and is to blame for not preventing atrocities in Siberia?

Siberia?  I might have to give you globe for your birthday.  When is that?  

I didn't suggest the Church was an intervening government.  If taken at its word, the leaders of the Church have revelation and prophecy at their fingertips and exist to serve others.  But the story we're told feels more like they were there to serve themselves, and seemed not concerned at all about impending brutality and lasciviousness (consider my grin when I use that out of date word). If prophetic surely they had to know something terrible was coming, by the sheer strength of their power of discernment they could have.  But then again, maybe they don't have such powers, maybe God wasn't concerned about the impending stuff.  Either way you slice it it makes me sad.  

 

[Robert F. Smith]

7 hours ago, Marginal Gains said:

He was kindly chastising the Mission President. I’m not aware from the anecdote of any interaction between Pres Nelson and the lady herself. Perhaps I’ve missed it.

You need to make some marginal gains in reading skill.  I did not say that Nelson had any personal interaction with the female lawyer.

[pogi]

30 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

Siberia?  I might have to give you globe for your birthday.  When is that?  

No need.  I am very familiar with the globe. I am an international travel health nurse and consult people who travel all over the globe every day.  It was a simple slip of the tongue (finger in this case) due to similar sounding names. 

33 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

I didn't suggest the Church was an intervening government. 

I was responding to Marginal in that particular case.

34 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

If taken at its word, the leaders of the Church have revelation and prophecy at their fingertips and exist to serve others.  But the story we're told feels more like they were there to serve themselves, and seemed not concerned at all about impending brutality and lasciviousness (consider my grin when I use that out of date word). If prophetic surely they had to know something terrible was coming, by the sheer strength of their power of discernment they could have.  But then again, maybe they don't have such powers, maybe God wasn't concerned about the impending stuff.  Either way you slice it it makes me sad.  

What makes you think that the leaders of the church can foresee every calamity, natural disaster, war, etc. that could ever befall anyone on earth?

God doesn't work that way.  He never has. 

 

[ksfisher]

39 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

If taken at its word, the leaders of the Church have revelation and prophecy at their fingertips

This isn't my understanding.

"But, behold, I say unto you, that you must study it out in your mind; then you must ask me if it be right, and if it is right I will cause that your bosom shall burn within you; therefore, you shall feel that it is right." (D&C 9:8)

 

[Robert F. Smith]

11 hours ago, CMZ said:

It became a "commandment" when Heber J. Grant made it a temple recommend question. But, yes, Mormons have taken the Word of Wisdom to mean that the entire world has been commanded not to drink alcohol. Now, I'm not saying people should drink alcohol (I'd kind of prefer they didn't) but the Word of Wisdom was given to members and we shouldn't act like non-members are guilty of breaking a rule that they generally don't even know about. Fortunately the smell of alcohol does not give me any temptation to drink it.

Correct.  We might compare the Jewish rules of kashrut (kosher), which apply only to Jews.  They never fault the Gentiles for violation of kashrut.

[stemelbow]

33 minutes ago, pogi said:

No need.  I am very familiar with the globe. I am an international travel health nurse and consult people who travel all over the globe every day.  It was a simple slip of the tongue (finger in this case) due to similar sounding names. 

Well good to hear.  And surely it makes sense in all this typing and responding it gets mixed up a bit.  

33 minutes ago, pogi said:

I was responding to Marginal in that particular case.

What makes you think that the leaders of the church can foresee every calamity, natural disaster, war, etc. that could ever befall anyone on earth?

God doesn't work that way.  He never has. 

 

If he works at all, huh?  I mean at different times in the scriptures he worked that way, so why don't we expect him to do so today?  Is it the scriptures aren't true nor are to be taken seriously?  or did He change?  Or are our expectations of him so mixed up he's unwilling to help out?  

[pogi]

18 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

Well good to hear.  And surely it makes sense in all this typing and responding it gets mixed up a bit.  

If he works at all, huh?  I mean at different times in the scriptures he worked that way, so why don't we expect him to do so today?  Is it the scriptures aren't true nor are to be taken seriously?  or did He change?  Or are our expectations of him so mixed up he's unwilling to help out?  

Prophets in scripture have never foreseen every war/conflict/natural disaster/disease outbreak.

[Marginal Gains]

25 minutes ago, pogi said:

Prophets in scripture have never foreseen every war/conflict/natural disaster/disease outbreak.

Have modern Mormon Prophets ever foreseen any war/conflict/natural disaster/disease outbreak?

[Duncan]

4 minutes ago, Marginal Gains said:

Have modern Mormon Prophets ever foreseen any war/conflict/natural disaster/disease outbreak?

i'm under the impression that Pres. Hinckley did for the economic downturn in the 2000's, Pres. George Albert Smith saw the Korean War coming and I think.........Hugh Nibley quoted Elder Melvin Ballard as saying something about WW2

[Marginal Gains]

1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said:

You need to make some marginal gains in reading skill.  I did not say that Nelson had any personal interaction with the female lawyer.

You said:

“Nonetheless, it is very heartening to know of Pres Nelson's kind reaction to this young woman's possible weakness.  All of us can take a lesson in ministry from that.“

His kindness in the anecdote, was in chastising the young Mission President with gentleness. It wasn’t a kind reaction to the young woman’s possible weakness. It was a kind reaction to the young Mission   Presidents judgement of the young woman.

Un less eyem reeding it rong...

[Marginal Gains]

1 minute ago, Duncan said:

i'm under the impression that Pres. Hinckley did for the economic downturn in the 2000's, Pres. George Albert Smith saw the Korean War coming and I think.........Hugh Nibley quoted Elder Melvin Ballard as saying something about WW2

CFR’s please

[Duncan]

1 minute ago, Marginal Gains said:

CFR’s please

um, Certified First Responder? I am not following

[Marginal Gains]

1 minute ago, Duncan said:

um, Certified First Responder? I am not following

I’m asking you to reference your claims.

[pogi]

14 minutes ago, Marginal Gains said:

Have modern Mormon Prophets ever foreseen any war/conflict/natural disaster/disease outbreak?

How many ancient prophets did?  How many hundreds of years in between prophecies?  We have only been around a couple hundred years.

Some would argue the civil war was prophecy.  We have general last days prophecies and are counsels to practice the principles of self reliance in preparation for tough times.

[Marginal Gains]

3 minutes ago, pogi said:

How many ancient prophets did?  How many hundreds of years in between prophecies?  We have only been around a couple hundred years.

Some would argue the civil war was prophecy.  We have general last days prophecies and are counsels to practice the principles of self reliance in preparation for tough times.

Not exactly what springs to mind when someone claims to be a Prophet, Seer and Revelator.

[pogi]

4 minutes ago, Marginal Gains said:

Not exactly what springs to mind when someone claims to be a Prophet, Seer and Revelator.

Again, compare to ancient revelations.  Few are far between with lots of general prophecies of wars and rumors of wars etc.  Not even close to what is being expected of modern prophets to foresee every natural disaster, war, disease outbreak across the entire globe.

[stemelbow]

54 minutes ago, pogi said:

Prophets in scripture have never foreseen every war/conflict/natural disaster/disease outbreak.

Ok.  Is this in defense of why Pres Nelson didn't foresee the outbreak of civil war in the former Yugoslavia?  "well, we can be sure that prophets didn't foresee them all".  Again, though, I think its fair for me to feel sad that a prophet, seer and revelator worked with Yugoslavian officials for the purpose of getting missionaries there, or more missionaries, and yet was not able to prophecy for their benefit.  God didn't want him to....God didn't know about it....God didn't care....they aren't really prophets in the sense of God sharing messages with them...

None of that is encouraging to me.  If you are encouraged by it all, good for you.  

[rongo]

I think the caricature/strawman of prophets insisted on by critics (LDS or non) is this, exactly --- except they include "monumental" things along with "trivial" things:

https://www.nbc.com/saturday-night-live/video/ed-glosser-trivial-psychic/n10314

They seem to really believe that prophets, if real, need to be walking fax machines connected to God, who can be commandeered by God at a moment's notice. 

[Duncan]

5 minutes ago, Marginal Gains said:

I’m asking you to reference your claims.

oh, well

"It will not be long until calamities will overtake the human family unless there is speedy repentance. It will not be long before those who are scattered over the face of the earth by millions will die like flies because of what will come. Our Heavenly Father has told us how it can be avoided, and that is our mission, in part, to go into the world and explain to people how it may be avoided, and that people need not be unhappy as they are everywhere but that happiness may be in their lives—because when the Spirit of God burns in your soul, you cannot be otherwise than happy" Pres. George Albert Smith, Conference Report April 1950, 167-170; 

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/1998/10/to-the-boys-and-to-the-men?lang=eng

you have to scroll down a bit

I will get back to you about the Elder Ballard anecdote

[pogi]

8 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

Ok.  Is this in defense of why Pres Nelson didn't foresee the outbreak of civil war in the former Yugoslavia?  "well, we can be sure that prophets didn't foresee them all".  Again, though, I think its fair for me to feel sad that a prophet, seer and revelator worked with Yugoslavian officials for the purpose of getting missionaries there, or more missionaries, and yet was not able to prophecy for their benefit.  God didn't want him to....God didn't know about it....God didn't care....they aren't really prophets in the sense of God sharing messages with them...

None of that is encouraging to me.  If you are encouraged by it all, good for you.  

I clearly do not believe in the same God you do.  My God allows suffering.  My prophet is not expected to warn about all human suffering.  

I am beyond grateful for the word of God they do offer me.  It has blessed me beyond words. I treasure the pearls of great price they offer.  If my family was killed in a major earthquake tomorrow, I would not be angry at God or the prophet for not giving warning.

I see the big picture, thanks to the prophets.

[juliann]

6 hours ago, Stargazer said:

 

But given that this situation happened back in a day when the formerly conventional, now wildly out of mode lifestyles (like women marrying men and having children while the men went out to work) was the usual case, especially in the country referred to, and most young women seemed to gravitate to such situations -- especially in parts of the earth where feminism had not yet run completely rampant -- I think that Elder Nelson's sentiment was probably close to spot-on.

 

Yeah, heaven forbid "feminism" should take over in parts of the world where things like rape and child marriage are ignored or protected. 

[Duncan]

So, Elder Ballard about WW2, when Hugh Nibley was set apart for his mission by Elder Ballard he was told that he was to call the German people to repentance and if they didn't they would be destroyed by fire as if from heaven. That comes from Boyd Petersen's article, "Truth is Stranger than Folklore:Hugh Nibley-the Man and the legend", Sunstone Dec. 2002

[stemelbow]

8 minutes ago, rongo said:

I think the caricature/strawman of prophets insisted on by critics (LDS or non) is this, exactly --- except they include "monumental" things along with "trivial" things:

https://www.nbc.com/saturday-night-live/video/ed-glosser-trivial-psychic/n10314

They seem to really believe that prophets, if real, need to be walking fax machines connected to God, who can be commandeered by God at a moment's notice. 

I do agree that'd be a caricatured description of what "critics" think about this.  Mostly they expect if someone claims to be a prophet, why, that one ought to prophesy at some point.  Its kind of silly to see some clumsily thought out reason to exclude gay people in a manual as prophecy, even if it is claimed to be revelation from God.  In other words, you simply don't have much leg to stand on but to caricaturize another's expectations.  

 

But again, back tot he quotes in question.  It is sad that a prophet, seer and revelation seemed more concerned about extending the influence of the Church than about a people who were about to be devastated by civil war.  

[Robert F. Smith]

49 minutes ago, Marginal Gains said:

You said:

“Nonetheless, it is very heartening to know of Pres Nelson's kind reaction to this young woman's possible weakness.  All of us can take a lesson in ministry from that.“

His kindness in the anecdote, was in chastising the young Mission President with gentleness. It wasn’t a kind reaction to the young woman’s possible weakness. It was a kind reaction to the young Mission   Presidents judgement of the young woman.

Un less eyem reeding it rong...

Sorry, but you definitely need to make some marginal gains in reading skill.