The M-Word

[jkwilliams]

1 hour ago, smac97 said:

I agree with you.  I also think viewing pornography is violative of D&C 59:6 ("Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. Thou shalt not steal; neither commit adultery, nor kill, nor do anything like unto it.") and/or Matthew 5:28 ("But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.").

Consuming pornography also contributes to the demand for pornography, and hence is complicit to some extent in the risks and abuses often found in that industry.

Pornography can also creates not only unhealthy and unrealistic expectations about sex, but also unhealthy expectations and perceptions of women.

Thanks,

-Smac

It creates unhealthy expectations of both men and women. 

[jkwilliams]

2 hours ago, EdGoble said:

I don't know where you are, but as far as I'm concerned, in the area where I live, there is zero tolerance in my experience.  And I personally feel that this is one of the reasons why apostates and others are so strongly against Bishops asking children about what they do in interviews, because the true motivation for that is that these people want to promote it as a healthy practice among the youth, to free them from the burden of having to keep themselves holy.

I can’t speak for anyone else, but I think some things shouldn’t be discussed with kids behind closed doors. The idea that I’m interested in promoting masturbation is kind of silly. 

[EdGoble]

44 minutes ago, ttribe said:

You win the award for saying the dumbest thing on the Internet, today.

I stand by it, and can see that some of you have no concern for the fact that children need to be taught to keep themselves morally clean and withhold their impulses, and keep their hands off of themselves, and take up their crosses.

[hope_for_things]

2 hours ago, jkwilliams said:

Whether you think masturbation is a sin or not, I'm curious as to how church members today feel it is best to approach the topic. Do you tend toward the zero-tolerance approach of my younger days, or do you have a different perspective?

I think more damage is done than good on this subject.  Shaming people for something that is natural, uninformed messages that came from past leaders as well as a paranoia about anything sexual all create a culture that is unhealthy for single people and I think leads to unhealthy sex lives for adults as well.  Its shocking to me that you had a bishop talk to you about this as a married man.  

Unfortunately this is one more example of how the church is clinging to myths and uninformed fears from prior generations, instead of an honest evaluation on the subject including developing a cohesive sexual ethic to be taught as doctrine in the church.  We need to grow and treat this important subject in a mature way.  

[hope_for_things]

2 hours ago, jkwilliams said:

I agree with the approach that compulsive behavior is a problem, whatever the behavior. I had a colleague who was a compulsive cleaner, and it caused serious problems in his life. He couldn't work unless his desk and work area were absolutely spotless, and he would wash his hands so often they became cracked and bleeding. 

I wonder what is considered compulsive behavior on this subject.  I eat food multiple times a day, am I a compulsive eater?  I'm not overweight for my height and I try to exercise regularly.  I agree that we need to be careful with compulsions, and I think that if the compulsion interferes with our relationships, our job, or our goals and values then its potentially a problem, but that is something everyone needs to evaluate.  

[HappyJackWagon]

15 minutes ago, EdGoble said:

I stand by it, and can see that some of you have no concern for the fact that children need to be taught to keep themselves morally clean and withhold their impulses, and keep their hands off of themselves, and take up their crosses.

Can't touch others. Can't touch self. This may be the only answer

[hope_for_things]

1 hour ago, CV75 said:

I would pretty much just follow the Strength of Youth pamphlet. And yes, of course only after much soul-searching, pondering and praying for my own spiritual witness on every specific subject and each possible variation, requiring much internet research of course LOL

I think the FTSoY pamphlet is really poorly written on this topic and has many problems.  

[JulieM]

My husband has been very open with our sons about masturbatuon.  He had a horrible experience with a bishop when he was a young teen who instilled horrible guilt and self loathing over something that nearly every normal teenager (especially boys) have done.  It’s normal and doesn’t mean you’re a bad, sinful, evil person because you do it once in awhile.

My husband does not want our sons to feel the shame and guilt and self hatred that he lived with even into being an adult over the results of how he was dealt with.  And, for those who wonder, he just had an occasional slip and didn’t view porn.  But he had a leader who was relentless about the questions and he answered honestly.

He’s pretty much told our sons to avoid porn (he explained how harmful and habit forming it can be and also how it harms those involved in the industry) and to not become obsessed with it or allow it to become a harmful habit (masturbation).  But he told them an occasional slip is normal and that are completely normal to have the urges.  He joked that he’d much rather them do that than get a girl pregnant (they laughed about that and also understood).

We have a very honest, open relationship with our kids.  We mainly keep doors open and our computer is in plain sight too.

Edited March 29, 2018 by JulieM

[california boy]

49 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

I think more damage is done than good on this subject.  Shaming people for something that is natural, uninformed messages that came from past leaders as well as a paranoia about anything sexual all create a culture that is unhealthy for single people and I think leads to unhealthy sex lives for adults as well.  Its shocking to me that you had a bishop talk to you about this as a married man.  

Unfortunately this is one more example of how the church is clinging to myths and uninformed fears from prior generations, instead of an honest evaluation on the subject including developing a cohesive sexual ethic to be taught as doctrine in the church.  We need to grow and treat this important subject in a mature way.  

It would be interesting if the church leaders ever sat down and stripped away all the superfluous traditions, some of which actually leads away from Christ, and instead only focused on our relationship with Christ and living the gospel He actually laid out. When I read the gospel of Christ, I see him trying to strip away many of the superfluous things that had created into Jewish worship.  There could possibly be a lesson there.  Drinking coffee sounds about as critical to ones salvation as not ever cutting your hair to nazarites in His day.  It has little to do with how we treat ourselves and others. 

Quote

 

Mosiah 18

8 And it came to pass that he said unto them: Behold, here are the waters of Mormon (for thus were they called) and now, as ye are desirous to come into the fold of God, and to be called his people, and are willing to bear one another’s burdens, that they may be light;

9 Yea, and are willing to mourn with those that mourn; yea, and comfort those that stand in need of comfort, and to stand as witnesses of God at all times and in all things, and in all places that ye may be in, even until death, that ye may be redeemed of God, and be numbered with those of the first resurrection, that ye may have eternal life—

10 Now I say unto you, if this be the desire of your hearts, what have you against being baptized in the name of the Lord, as a witness before him that ye have entered into a covenant with him, that ye will serve him and keep his commandments, that he may pour out his Spirit more abundantly upon you?

 

I posted this in the wrong thread.  Met to do it about the one on the WoW.  But I think the principles still apply.

Edited March 29, 2018 by california boy

[hope_for_things]

3 minutes ago, california boy said:

It would be interesting if the church leaders ever sat down and stripped away all the superfluous traditions, some of which actually leads away from Christ, and instead only focused on our relationship with Christ and living the gospel He actually laid out. When I read the gospel of Christ, I see him trying to strip away many of the superfluous things that had created into Jewish worship.  There could possibly be a lesson there.  Drinking coffee sounds about as critical to ones salvation as not ever cutting your hair to nazarites in His day.  It has little to do with how we treat ourselves and others. 

I completely agree.  I say this frequently, but I think the church needs to re-evaluate its values now and in the future.  Its in our central doctrine the idea of continuing revelation.  How can we get revelation when we cling to traditions that were founded in naive and less informed ideas.  The light and knowledge that continues to come to humanity through regular discoveries is regularly being ignored or worse we have leaders that fear it. 

I'm not suggesting that everything that comes from the secular should be accepted without any critical evaluation, instead it should require critical evaluation and discussion and prayer.  I don't see this happening from our leaders, I see them insulating themselves in echo chambers, and only responding to external stimuli when it becomes politically expedient (see the MTC sex scandal as evidence.)  Perhaps I'm judging to harshly here, and there are more positive steps being taken, but its frustratingly slow from my vantage point.  

[Maestrophil]

I had a great bishop who opened every interview with asking about this in a very humorous way.  We all knew it would be the first question, and we all knew it was asked in a light hearted way so the pressure was lessened.  He told us that we should try and stop and keep him updated on our progress.  Unless we were very frequent in our M-wording, we could still pass and bless the sacrament.  

But between all of the lessons, and books, and talks about the subject, I definitely felt like a terrible sinner most of my youth for simply desiring it.

I feel there should be a lighter approach to it personally, while still gently dissuading like my bishop did.

[ttribe]

1 hour ago, EdGoble said:

I stand by it, and can see that some of you have no concern for the fact that children need to be taught to keep themselves morally clean and withhold their impulses, and keep their hands off of themselves, and take up their crosses.

Like you have any idea what I, or just about anyone else, actually want.  But, hey, don't let that get in the way of ascribing the worst possible motivations to your perceived enemies.

[Kenngo1969]

1 hour ago, EdGoble said:

I stand by it, and can see that some of you have no concern for the fact that children need to be taught to keep themselves morally clean and withhold their impulses, and keep their hands off of themselves, and take up their crosses.

With the caveat that I believe the word you're looking for when you use the word withhold is withstand, I agree with what you've stated.  Yes, children should be taught to keep themselves morally clean, to withstand immoral impulses, and to keep their hands off of themselves (when it comes to masturbation).  But if even President Boyd K. Packer (who is hardly known for permissiveness) said that it's not something that the Lord would reject someone for, to me, that says a lot about how we might want to approach the subject.

 

[rpn]

I wish all parents simply taught it as one of the multiple parts, passions and appetites that come with this mortal body. which we were anxious to get so we could become like our Father in Heaven and learn to control in submission to His will.  That sexual appetites are likely the strongest, and made by God so that people would choose to get married, build the loving and strong union a marriage is supposed to be,  and nurture together any children born within that relationship.  That the appetites can bring important and special dimension to a marriage that blesses not just the parents, but also the whole atmosphere of the home.   That just because it is strong and perfectly natural and even beautiful, that doesn't mean we are free to express those feelings outside of a marriage with an opposite sex spouse, which is the only circumstance it is intended to be used.   Yes it is okay to figure out how your body reacts and how you feel: it is hard to use it the way it is intended if you have no knowledge of how it works,   But when you use it outside of marriage, you make it harder to control and bank for its intended purpose.   Self stimulation is the opposite of banking our sexual desires, and the more you use it outside of how God intends for it to be used, the harder time you'll have controlling all aspects of your natural man/woman, which will make your life harder than it has to be, and can interfere with your marital relationship.

[The Nehor]

3 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

From the point of view of anyone seeking to develop deep spirituality, these various obsessions and compulsions (sex, drugs, or rock & roll) are distractions.  The yogis and zen masters have always said that even getting stuck on occult powers (siddhi) can be the death knell of real spirituality.  The best way to avoid or cure bad habits of that kind is to find something more engaging and fulfilling.

When rich traditional life was our focus, that made everything easier, while today tradition is openly flouted or ignored.  That leaves most of us adrift, trying to make sense of it all, not  knowing what profession to seek, whether or when to marry, how to raise children, etc., not finding a sure path through life's stages (not even knowing if there are stages or meaning).  Communities which emphasize tradition seem to negotiate the badlands better than other, less traditional groups and individuals. The Gospel does provide a safe harbor for us, to the degree that we will allow it.

Masturbation is the least of our problems.

If the monastic self-denying life was the way to God we would have a monastic self-denying tradition in the LDS faith.

[The Nehor]

2 hours ago, EdGoble said:

I stand by it, and can see that some of you have no concern for the fact that children need to be taught to keep themselves morally clean and withhold their impulses, and keep their hands off of themselves, and take up their crosses.

Just make sure you point out to a teen that if they fail to abstain from this that they are basically an adulterer and just short of being a murderer.

Edited March 30, 2018 by The Nehor

[jkwilliams]

4 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Just make sure you point out to a teen that if they fail to abstain from this that they are basically an adulterer and just short of being a murderer.

I suppose that’s what the problem was with the teachings I received growing up: the lack of proportion. I can’t see putting so much guilt and shame on people for something so relatively trivial. 

[Kenngo1969]

40 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

If the monastic self-denying life was the way to God we would have a monastic self-denying tradition in the LDS faith.

We do.  It's called Eternal Bachelorhood!  

[The Nehor]

5 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said:

We do.  It's called Eternal Bachelorhood!  

Oh, well I’m that case I can conclusively declare that it is a false path and tends to lead to selfishness, stagnation, and emotional immaturity. I present myself as exhibit A. I propose we denounce this false path to exaltation and counsel all to avoid it. All in favor please manifest it.

[Duncan]

I dunno, but it's odd to me to take advice from someone who hasn't had to live with their own advice, "yeah, you single people don't have sex, masturbate, et al" meanwhile he got married when he was like 20.....thanks for the hot tip

[Robert F. Smith]

43 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

If the monastic self-denying life was the way to God we would have a monastic self-denying tradition in the LDS faith.

The stage of self-denial for Hindus and Buddhists was merely a short period of youth (monks in saffron robes with begging bowls), followed by the adoption of a vocation and life as a householder with children, followed by an age of wisdom and spiritual seeking, etc.  Only rarely did anyone commit himself to lifelong monasticism.

One could argue that Westerners have an analogous youthful period of hardship and self-denial with enlistment in the military, or with the serving of a religious mission. or with strong efforts in higher education to master a particular discipline, before marriage and children.  A lot of those traditional paths have disappeared.

[Rivers]

I got asked about the M word as a youth.  This may sound shocking to many, but I never had much of an issue with it back then.  I was rather repulsed by the idea. I had no idea it was such a common thing among young boys.  I didn't understand why I had bishops talking to me about it.  It was very weird.  

[BlueDreams]

6 hours ago, jkwilliams said:

On another thread, there's been a lively discussion about whether masturbation is a sin and how members of the church should treat the subject. I am curious about the apparent change since my youth in how it's discussed. As I have mentioned before, I was asked in every bishop's interview from the time I was 12 until my mission whether I masturbated. The first time I was asked, I told the bishop I didn't know what that meant. So, he told me, in more detail than I was ready for. I was taught repeatedly that it was a terrible vice, and that it would drive away the spirit and prevent young men from righteous exercise of the priesthood. I was also told that I could not serve a mission if I was not free from this habit. The last time I was asked about it was a couple of years after my marriage. Our bishop, a BYU professor, said it would be a betrayal of our covenants to our wives.

These days people in the church seem much less concerned about masturbation. One of my son's friends had a mission president who was a urologist. He counseled the missionaries not to obsess about it, that every so often it was healthy to "clean out the pipes." I couldn't imagine my priesthood leaders saying that when I was younger.

By the time my sons reached their teenage years, I was already in the transition to hardened apostate/anti-Mormon extraordinaire. I told them all the same thing: it's fine, as long as it doesn't become a compulsion. 

Whether you think masturbation is a sin or not, I'm curious as to how church members today feel it is best to approach the topic. Do you tend toward the zero-tolerance approach of my younger days, or do you have a different perspective?

A different perspective. 

I don't think of masturbation as a sin. I view it as neutral. Something that can be good or bad depending on the context or way that it's used. The zero-tolerance was a hold over, to me, to victorian age ideals and reactionary to the sexual revolution. Statement in any publications are nearly all gone/rare, minus when coupled with pornography and 1 somewhat description in the FtSY pamphlet. I think it's inappropriate to add questions to the temple recommend interviews. And completely unacceptable to add questions to others

Personally, I refuse to teach my children it is a sin or something they shouldn't do. 

For my job the views that I've seen from bishops, other leaders, and lay members in my office vary drastically. A lot of the variety depends on the age, where they grew up/lived, exposure to sexual education, and their families. They've ranged from adamantly against to talking positively. I had a bishop tell a concerned congregant, after learning the person was masturbating without porn or lust oriented thoughts and told the person that not only were they fine, but that they were learning the goodness that God gave them and that the person would be more capable of sharing themselves with their spouse later in life. Even bishops where they may really believe masturbating is not good, may be persuaded otherwise when I've talked to them. 

On top of that, there's no scriptures on masturbating. Period. 

So I think it's a shame you/the church entailed an era of fairly rigid attitudes around masturbating....but I do see it changing. And very capable of changing more.

 

With luv,

BD

[kllindley]

6 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

I think more damage is done than good on this subject.  Shaming people for something that is natural, uninformed messages that came from past leaders as well as a paranoia about anything sexual all create a culture that is unhealthy for single people and I think leads to unhealthy sex lives for adults as well.  Its shocking to me that you had a bishop talk to you about this as a married man.  

Unfortunately this is one more example of how the church is clinging to myths and uninformed fears from prior generations, instead of an honest evaluation on the subject including developing a cohesive sexual ethic to be taught as doctrine in the church.  We need to grow and treat this important subject in a mature way.  

Unfortunately. This is a perfect example of how an individual who has every right to discover and decide his own beliefs becomes condescending and irrationally bigoted toward other beliefs. People really need to grow and learn to have conversations in a mature way. 

A mature way would mean that you don't start the conversation by trying to delegitimize the opposing perspective through time like calling them myths, uninformed, paranoia, etc. 

6 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

I wonder what is considered compulsive behavior on this subject.  I eat food multiple times a day, am I a compulsive eater?  I'm not overweight for my height and I try to exercise regularly.  I agree that we need to be careful with compulsions, and I think that if the compulsion interferes with our relationships, our job, or our goals and values then its potentially a problem, but that is something everyone needs to evaluate.  

Congratulations on acting like you had a profound thought on the subject while refusing to actually engage with the substance of the comment. 

6 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

I think the FTSoY pamphlet is really poorly written on this topic and has many problems.  

Naturally you do. 

5 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

I completely agree.  I say this frequently, but I think the church needs to re-evaluate its values now and in the future.  Its in our central doctrine the idea of continuing revelation.  How can we get revelation when we cling to traditions that were founded in naive and less informed ideas.  The light and knowledge that continues to come to humanity through regular discoveries is regularly being ignored or worse we have leaders that fear it. 

I'm not suggesting that everything that comes from the secular should be accepted without any critical evaluation, instead it should require critical evaluation and discussion and prayer.  I don't see this happening from our leaders, I see them insulating themselves in echo chambers, and only responding to external stimuli when it becomes politically expedient (see the MTC sex scandal as evidence.)  Perhaps I'm judging to harshly here, and there are more positive steps being taken, but its frustratingly slow from my vantage point.  

Maybe you are judging too harshly in expecting people you don't agree with to change anything see things the way you do. Is that really any different than the hard-line religious approach of expecting "the world" to change?

I also strongly disagree that the leaders insulate themselves in echo chambers. 

[kllindley]

4 hours ago, jkwilliams said:

I suppose that’s what the problem was with the teachings I received growing up: the lack of proportion. I can’t see putting so much guilt and shame on people for something so relatively trivial. 

Absolutely no disagreement here.