The M-Word

[jkwilliams]

On another thread, there's been a lively discussion about whether masturbation is a sin and how members of the church should treat the subject. I am curious about the apparent change since my youth in how it's discussed. As I have mentioned before, I was asked in every bishop's interview from the time I was 12 until my mission whether I masturbated. The first time I was asked, I told the bishop I didn't know what that meant. So, he told me, in more detail than I was ready for. I was taught repeatedly that it was a terrible vice, and that it would drive away the spirit and prevent young men from righteous exercise of the priesthood. I was also told that I could not serve a mission if I was not free from this habit. The last time I was asked about it was a couple of years after my marriage. Our bishop, a BYU professor, said it would be a betrayal of our covenants to our wives.

These days people in the church seem much less concerned about masturbation. One of my son's friends had a mission president who was a urologist. He counseled the missionaries not to obsess about it, that every so often it was healthy to "clean out the pipes." I couldn't imagine my priesthood leaders saying that when I was younger.

By the time my sons reached their teenage years, I was already in the transition to hardened apostate/anti-Mormon extraordinaire. I told them all the same thing: it's fine, as long as it doesn't become a compulsion. 

Whether you think masturbation is a sin or not, I'm curious as to how church members today feel it is best to approach the topic. Do you tend toward the zero-tolerance approach of my younger days, or do you have a different perspective?

[kllindley]

Absolutely not the zero tolerance approach. For whatever the opinion of a professional working with sexual health is worth, I think the approach at the BYU-I counseling center (which is nicely separated from the University administration) is very good. I can't speak with certainty, but I understand that BYU takes a similar position. 

http://www.byui.edu/counseling-center/self-help/compulsive-behaviors

I'm not ashamed to say that I don't see a huge distinction (definitely some) between masturbation and pornography use. So the topic on Prohibition has some great viewpoints on helpful approaches that would be applicable here. Pogi is especially insightful.

[smac97]

1 hour ago, jkwilliams said:

On another thread, there's been a lively discussion about whether masturbation is a sin and how members of the church should treat the subject. I am curious about the apparent change since my youth in how it's discussed. As I have mentioned before, I was asked in every bishop's interview from the time I was 12 until my mission whether I masturbated.

I was never asked once.  

Quote

These days people in the church seem much less concerned about masturbation.

I think it's viewed in a different frame of reference.  Still a sin and not appropriate, but not on par with fornication or adultery.

To the extent masturbation is in tandem with viewing pornography (a fairly frequent thing), I think that creates some additional concerns.

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited March 29, 2018 by smac97

[jkwilliams]

Just now, smac97 said:

I was never asked once.  

I think it's viewed in a different frame of reference.  Still a sin and not appropriate, but not on par with fornication or adultery.

To the extent masturbation is in tandem with viewing pornography (a fairly frequest thing), I think that creates some additional concerns.

Thanks,

-Smac

I'm glad you weren't asked. As for pornography, I told my sons that the worst thing about it is that it created unhealthy and unrealistic expectations about sex, not to mention that it could easily become a substitute for a real relationship with another person. 

[jkwilliams]

13 minutes ago, kllindley said:

Absolutely not the zero tolerance approach. For whatever the opinion of a professional working with sexual health is worth, I think the approach at the BYU-I counseling center (which is nicely separated from the University administration) is very good. I can't speak with certainty, but I understand that BYU takes a similar position. 

http://www.byui.edu/counseling-center/self-help/compulsive-behaviors

I'm not ashamed to say that I don't see a huge distinction (definitely some) between masturbation and pornography use. So the topic on Prohibition has some great viewpoints on helpful approaches that would be applicable here. Pogi is especially insightful.

I agree with the approach that compulsive behavior is a problem, whatever the behavior. I had a colleague who was a compulsive cleaner, and it caused serious problems in his life. He couldn't work unless his desk and work area were absolutely spotless, and he would wash his hands so often they became cracked and bleeding. 

[Joe]

I started the practice of M when I was eleven. I got the idea from my bishop, who was also my dad, when he spoke with me privately in my bedroom and explained what it was, cautioning me to never do it. I had never considered doing anything like that until he explained what it was. Within a few months I had tried it. 

I continued this practice compulsively for twenty two years and it was the source of much shame and self-loathing. I completely discontinued the practice four years ago when I realized I was using it to numb my negative emotions. That numbing effect also diminished positive emotions, and I found myself in a terrible funk. 

Because of my experience I have a very nuanced view on M. I don't think it should be something to be ashamed of, but I know from experience that it can be harmful. I know that it can interfere with physical intimacy in a loving relationship. I know that the thoughts I had while doing it led me into a pattern of thinking that objectified women. I know that I once did it so much in one night that I hurt myself physically. I still have the scars. TMI?

I currently have sons that are at the age I was at when I started. I have chosen not to talk to them about it at this time, but I'm sure when I do decide to talk to them about it I'm going to tell them my experience. I will make sure they know the consequences I experienced with it. I also will let them know they don't need to tell the bishop about it or be ashamed of it.

 

[EdGoble]

36 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

On another thread, there's been a lively discussion about whether masturbation is a sin and how members of the church should treat the subject. I am curious about the apparent change since my youth in how it's discussed. As I have mentioned before, I was asked in every bishop's interview from the time I was 12 until my mission whether I masturbated. The first time I was asked, I told the bishop I didn't know what that meant. So, he told me, in more detail than I was ready for. I was taught repeatedly that it was a terrible vice, and that it would drive away the spirit and prevent young men from righteous exercise of the priesthood. I was also told that I could not serve a mission if I was not free from this habit. The last time I was asked about it was a couple of years after my marriage. Our bishop, a BYU professor, said it would be a betrayal of our covenants to our wives.

These days people in the church seem much less concerned about masturbation. One of my son's friends had a mission president who was a urologist. He counseled the missionaries not to obsess about it, that every so often it was healthy to "clean out the pipes." I couldn't imagine my priesthood leaders saying that when I was younger.

By the time my sons reached their teenage years, I was already in the transition to hardened apostate/anti-Mormon extraordinaire. I told them all the same thing: it's fine, as long as it doesn't become a compulsion. 

Whether you think masturbation is a sin or not, I'm curious as to how church members today feel it is best to approach the topic. Do you tend toward the zero-tolerance approach of my younger days, or do you have a different perspective?

I don't know where you are, but as far as I'm concerned, in the area where I live, there is zero tolerance in my experience.  And I personally feel that this is one of the reasons why apostates and others are so strongly against Bishops asking children about what they do in interviews, because the true motivation for that is that these people want to promote it as a healthy practice among the youth, to free them from the burden of having to keep themselves holy.

[Gray]

Just now, EdGoble said:

I don't know where you are, but as far as I'm concerned, in the area where I live, there is zero tolerance in my experience.  And I personally feel that this is one of the reasons why apostates and others are so strongly against Bishops asking children about what they do in interviews, because the true motivation for that is that these people want to promote it as a healthy practice among the youth, to free them from the burden of having to keep themselves holy.

By this same reasoning, Mormons must work so hard to convert so many Catholics each year because their true motivation is that they want to promote family planning and contraception among vulnerable Catholics, to free themselves from the burden of having to keep themselves holy by following the Holy Father's word on contraceptives.

See how silly that sounds?

[HappyJackWagon]

It definitely seems to be a matter of leadership roulette. Some leaders like to beat the bushes in interviews to route out the evil deed while others simply recognize that there is no hard, fast rule about what frequency may make a person unworthy. Either way, I've always been told that if I hold tightly to the iron rod, that I will have the strength to overcome temptation.

[EdGoble]

2 minutes ago, Gray said:

By this same reasoning, Mormons must work so hard to convert so many Catholics each year because their true motivation is that they want to promote family planning and contraception among vulnerable Catholics, to free themselves from the burden of having to keep themselves holy by following the Holy Father's word on contraceptives.

See how silly that sounds?

Yeah, the way you say what you are saying, what you are saying certainly does sound silly.

[Kenngo1969]

"The M-word"?

What, marriage?

What's wrong with that?  

What?  

Oh, sorry.  

Couldn't resist!  

Don't mind me.  Carry on!

[Gray]

2 minutes ago, EdGoble said:

Yeah, the way you say what you are saying, what you are saying certainly does sound silly.

Yours was just as silly. That was my point. You could do the same with any starting point religion - people leave Jehovah's Witnesses because they want to justify themselves in accepting blood transfusions. People leave Islam because they want to justify themselves in eating pork. Etc etc.

[smac97]

33 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

I'm glad you weren't asked. As for pornography, I told my sons that the worst thing about it is that it created unhealthy and unrealistic expectations about sex, not to mention that it could easily become a substitute for a real relationship with another person. 

I agree with you.  I also think viewing pornography is violative of D&C 59:6 ("Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. Thou shalt not steal; neither commit adultery, nor kill, nor do anything like unto it.") and/or Matthew 5:28 ("But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.").

Consuming pornography also contributes to the demand for pornography, and hence is complicit to some extent in the risks and abuses often found in that industry.

Pornography can also creates not only unhealthy and unrealistic expectations about sex, but also unhealthy expectations and perceptions of women.

Thanks,

-Smac

[california boy]

I was asked about it by my bishop in every interview from age 12.  And yes, he wanted to know details.  How often and if I ever did it with another person.  It made me very uncomfortable and seemed a bit creepy.  

First pornography I saw was at a boy scout outing when I was 12.  We were staying at a cabin in the snow.  One of the kids brought a Playboy.  And actually it was the first time I realized that I was not like all the other guys.  They were all going nuts over these naked women.  I had absolutely no interest.  Still don't. I couldn't understand why.

I honestly never really worried about doing it.  I had a much bigger darker secret.  I was gay.  And I knew I would not be going to the Celestial Kingdom.  So really, what difference would it make if I masterbated.  

[Robert F. Smith]

7 minutes ago, Gray said:

Yours was just as silly. That was my point. You could do the same with any starting point religion - people leave Jehovah's Witnesses because they want to justify themselves in accepting blood transfusions. People leave Islam because they want to justify themselves in eating pork. Etc etc.

Maybe Ed is talking about the unconscious level of motivation -- the id.

[cinepro]

1 hour ago, smac97 said:

I was never asked once.  

 

I was never asked once either. 

Frankly, the huge variation on this in the Church is really disappointing, but also encouraging.

When I lived in West Los Angeles, we had an incredibly wise and caring Bishop (also a former Stake President), and one week he taught the lesson in Elder's Quorum and let us know that masturbation was okay as long as it doesn't become an addiction or involve pornography.  I was good friends with him, so I mentioned after the class that it was an unusual message, and he mentioned how, as a Stake President, he had talked to other Stake Presidents at meetings and, "off the record", almost none of them thought masturbation was something to worry about, and he thought this would eventually go away in the Church as a big concern.

I suspect it is "The Miracle of Forgiveness" and "To the Young Men Only" that most directly engraved the idea that "masturbation is a sin worth discussing in bishop's office" to a generation of LDS, and it will slowly fade over time unless it gets reinforced. 

Unfortunately, for many LDS it is discussions just like this one that can serve to reinforce what has been taught and remind them of what they think the Church's doctrine on this is.  

Edited March 29, 2018 by cinepro

[Robert F. Smith]

3 minutes ago, california boy said:

.......................................I honestly never really worried about doing it.  I had a much bigger darker secret.  I was gay.  And I knew I would not be going to the Celestial Kingdom.  So really, what difference would it make if I masterbated.  

I think that we may both be somewhat surprised when we find ourselves in the celestial kingdom, these side issues no longer so important.

[RevTestament]

35 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

On another thread, there's been a lively discussion about whether masturbation is a sin and how members of the church should treat the subject. I am curious about the apparent change since my youth in how it's discussed. As I have mentioned before, I was asked in every bishop's interview from the time I was 12 until my mission whether I masturbated. The first time I was asked, I told the bishop I didn't know what that meant. So, he told me, in more detail than I was ready for. I was taught repeatedly that it was a terrible vice, and that it would drive away the spirit and prevent young men from righteous exercise of the priesthood. I was also told that I could not serve a mission if I was not free from this habit. The last time I was asked about it was a couple of years after my marriage. Our bishop, a BYU professor, said it would be a betrayal of our covenants to our wives.

These days people in the church seem much less concerned about masturbation. One of my son's friends had a mission president who was a urologist. He counseled the missionaries not to obsess about it, that every so often it was healthy to "clean out the pipes." I couldn't imagine my priesthood leaders saying that when I was younger.

By the time my sons reached their teenage years, I was already in the transition to hardened apostate/anti-Mormon extraordinaire. I told them all the same thing: it's fine, as long as it doesn't become a compulsion. 

Whether you think masturbation is a sin or not, I'm curious as to how church members today feel it is best to approach the topic. Do you tend toward the zero-tolerance approach of my younger days, or do you have a different perspective?

I absolutely do not have a zero tolerance approach. I have three sons. I explained to them natural reactions of the male entering puberty. Later, I explained to them the usual expectations of the Church and that a bishop may ask about masturbation. I think it worth noting that despite the Church's usual stance on this issue, it is never addressed in scripture - the closest is addressing night-time emissions and the required time of separateness.  I have learned with dismay that some bishops hounded young boys on this issue to the extent that they took their own lives. This is probably a Catholic or Puritan-type attitude. Since this particular "sin" is never addressed in scripture I fail to see any way it should be equated with fornication or adultery - nor boys tormented with the idea that they will lose their salvation. It is just not comparable. If it was such a horrible sin, it seems the Lord would have told His people before 1900 A.D. Is it a sin against the Lord, if there is no scripture commanding against it? Is it a sin against some person? What exactly is the nature of this alleged sin? Or is it just an out-dated societal attitude?

19 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

I'm glad you weren't asked. As for pornography, I told my sons that the worst thing about it is that it created unhealthy and unrealistic expectations about sex, not to mention that it could easily become a substitute for a real relationship with another person. 

"The Lord cannot look upon sin with the least allowance ." Those depicted in pornography are sinning - engaging in sexual acts for money outside the bounds of marriage. The Lord cannot look on it with allowance, nor can we. Further, use of pornography financially supports the sin, making the users far from innocent - it makes them complicit. Pornography is a tool used by Satan which allows evil spirits to gain control of our sexual mind. It is a severe evil not to be condoned in the least - whether inside or outside of marriage, and I believe is a major contributor to the sexual perversions of modern America. Many in the Church seem to equate pornography and masturbation. Masturbation was around long before pornography. They are not the same.

[california boy]

3 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

I think that we may both be somewhat surprised when we find ourselves in the celestial kingdom, these side issues no longer so important.

I agree with you.  But as a teenager, I didn't have that view because of church teachings.  Unfortunately, I think there are still a lot of teenagers who feel they will never return to God.  With age comes perspective and understanding.  We learn to trust the Spirit more and what church leaders think less.

[Robert F. Smith]

From the point of view of anyone seeking to develop deep spirituality, these various obsessions and compulsions (sex, drugs, or rock & roll) are distractions.  The yogis and zen masters have always said that even getting stuck on occult powers (siddhi) can be the death knell of real spirituality.  The best way to avoid or cure bad habits of that kind is to find something more engaging and fulfilling.

When rich traditional life was our focus, that made everything easier, while today tradition is openly flouted or ignored.  That leaves most of us adrift, trying to make sense of it all, not  knowing what profession to seek, whether or when to marry, how to raise children, etc., not finding a sure path through life's stages (not even knowing if there are stages or meaning).  Communities which emphasize tradition seem to negotiate the badlands better than other, less traditional groups and individuals. The Gospel does provide a safe harbor for us, to the degree that we will allow it.

Masturbation is the least of our problems.

[Storm Rider]

1 hour ago, jkwilliams said:

On another thread, there's been a lively discussion about whether masturbation is a sin and how members of the church should treat the subject. I am curious about the apparent change since my youth in how it's discussed. As I have mentioned before, I was asked in every bishop's interview from the time I was 12 until my mission whether I masturbated. The first time I was asked, I told the bishop I didn't know what that meant. So, he told me, in more detail than I was ready for. I was taught repeatedly that it was a terrible vice, and that it would drive away the spirit and prevent young men from righteous exercise of the priesthood. I was also told that I could not serve a mission if I was not free from this habit. The last time I was asked about it was a couple of years after my marriage. Our bishop, a BYU professor, said it would be a betrayal of our covenants to our wives.

These days people in the church seem much less concerned about masturbation. One of my son's friends had a mission president who was a urologist. He counseled the missionaries not to obsess about it, that every so often it was healthy to "clean out the pipes." I couldn't imagine my priesthood leaders saying that when I was younger.

By the time my sons reached their teenage years, I was already in the transition to hardened apostate/anti-Mormon extraordinaire. I told them all the same thing: it's fine, as long as it doesn't become a compulsion. 

Whether you think masturbation is a sin or not, I'm curious as to how church members today feel it is best to approach the topic. Do you tend toward the zero-tolerance approach of my younger days, or do you have a different perspective?

It is funny how differently this has been treated.  I have a beard that is almost completely white - hair on top has taken an extended vacation and has not given any notice of returning.  I have no recollection of every being asked about masturbation in any interview growing up or on my mission in France; not a single time.  Frankly, it amazes me that so many of you seemed to have been asked about it rather than just asked about your worthiness and obedience to the law of chastity.  

My son and I discussed masturbation as a topic, but never as a question.  We discussed like we discussed most topics about human sexuality. 

One time I found that he had been looking at porn.  The next day we talked about it and how it made him feel.  After ten to fifteen minutes I asked if he felt he need to talk to the bishop then to take care of it quickly rather than allowing it to fester.  We never mentioned it again and I never saw any evidence that he looked at porn again.  

I don't think there is any benefit in discussing that once is okay or any other number.  The question is - "Son, how does it make you feel?"  From that point forward the conversation is easy. 

[CV75]

1 hour ago, jkwilliams said:

On another thread, there's been a lively discussion about whether masturbation is a sin and how members of the church should treat the subject. I am curious about the apparent change since my youth in how it's discussed. As I have mentioned before, I was asked in every bishop's interview from the time I was 12 until my mission whether I masturbated. The first time I was asked, I told the bishop I didn't know what that meant. So, he told me, in more detail than I was ready for. I was taught repeatedly that it was a terrible vice, and that it would drive away the spirit and prevent young men from righteous exercise of the priesthood. I was also told that I could not serve a mission if I was not free from this habit. The last time I was asked about it was a couple of years after my marriage. Our bishop, a BYU professor, said it would be a betrayal of our covenants to our wives.

These days people in the church seem much less concerned about masturbation. One of my son's friends had a mission president who was a urologist. He counseled the missionaries not to obsess about it, that every so often it was healthy to "clean out the pipes." I couldn't imagine my priesthood leaders saying that when I was younger.

By the time my sons reached their teenage years, I was already in the transition to hardened apostate/anti-Mormon extraordinaire. I told them all the same thing: it's fine, as long as it doesn't become a compulsion. 

Whether you think masturbation is a sin or not, I'm curious as to how church members today feel it is best to approach the topic. Do you tend toward the zero-tolerance approach of my younger days, or do you have a different perspective?

I would pretty much just follow the Strength of Youth pamphlet. And yes, of course only after much soul-searching, pondering and praying for my own spiritual witness on every specific subject and each possible variation, requiring much internet research of course LOL

[Duncan]

We had a zone conference lecture about it, I remember feeling very awkward when the MP asked the sisters to leave the chapel and who knows what they heard. Our MP 's position was don't call him at 4am to tell him you did it, it's no big deal unless you do it like 4 times a day or something but it doesn't affect your standing in the Church. I took it as it's not a good thing but not a sin or something you needed to confess, like you would if you stole a car or was planning on killing someone. I know some years ago our Stake President said in stake priesthood that masturbation leads to murder, like first off yeah right, if that were even remotely true then the world would be dead on in jail for murder. The other thing too was I live across the street from a high school so, am I doomed now??????????

Edited March 29, 2018 by Duncan

[Gray]

1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Maybe Ed is talking about the unconscious level of motivation -- the id.

If so, he's speaking awfully confidently about the ids of total strangers.

[ttribe]

1 hour ago, EdGoble said:

I don't know where you are, but as far as I'm concerned, in the area where I live, there is zero tolerance in my experience.  And I personally feel that this is one of the reasons why apostates and others are so strongly against Bishops asking children about what they do in interviews, because the true motivation for that is that these people want to promote it as a healthy practice among the youth, to free them from the burden of having to keep themselves holy.

You win the award for saying the dumbest thing on the Internet, today.