The M-Word

[SamuelTheLamanite]

10 hours ago, jkwilliams said:

I agree with the approach that compulsive behavior is a problem, whatever the behavior. I had a colleague who was a compulsive cleaner, and it caused serious problems in his life. He couldn't work unless his desk and work area were absolutely spotless, and he would wash his hands so often they became cracked and bleeding. 

But viewing pornography is much more serious than being a compulsive cleaner. Pornography is like the anti-gospel created by Satan. The Gospel of Jesus unites and strengthens families, but pornography destroys families. Sexual assault continues to rise because pornography is everywhere.

9 hours ago, smac97 said:

Consuming pornography also contributes to the demand for pornography, and hence is complicit to some extent in the risks and abuses often found in that industry.

 1 in 4 women working in the porn industry are raped. Women make five dollars an hour and have to work 16 hours every day. The porn industry is the most abusive industry in the world.   

9 hours ago, california boy said:

First pornography I saw was at a boy scout outing when I was 12.

How sorry I am. You are a pornography survivor. Be strong.

Edited March 30, 2018 by SamuelTheLamanite

[Glenn101]

I was never asked about masturbation in any of my interviews. The bishops that I remember interviewing me mostly would iterate the most common of sexual sins, masturbation among that group, and ask if I were morally clean sexually (and otherwise). 

[jkwilliams]

5 hours ago, SamuelTheLamanite said:

But viewing pornography is much more serious than being a compulsive cleaner. Pornography is like the anti-gospel created by Satan. The Gospel of Jesus unites and strengthens families, but pornography destroys families. Sexual assault continues to rise because pornography is everywhere.

 1 in 4 women working in the porn industry are raped. Women make five dollars an hour and have to work 16 hours every day. The porn industry is the most abusive industry in the world.   

How sorry I am. You are a pornography survivor. Be strong.

I agree that pornography is antithetical to the teachings of the LDS church. That said, I don't think you can show a link between the availability of pornography and the incidence of sexual assault. And I'm not sure the word "survivor" is appropriate. You survive a car accident or cancer or abuse. Choosing to look at pornography is not something you survive.

[jkwilliams]

8 hours ago, BlueDreams said:

A different perspective. 

I don't think of masturbation as a sin. I view it as neutral. Something that can be good or bad depending on the context or way that it's used. The zero-tolerance was a hold over, to me, to victorian age ideals and reactionary to the sexual revolution. Statement in any publications are nearly all gone/rare, minus when coupled with pornography and 1 somewhat description in the FtSY pamphlet. I think it's inappropriate to add questions to the temple recommend interviews. And completely unacceptable to add questions to others

Personally, I refuse to teach my children it is a sin or something they shouldn't do. 

For my job the views that I've seen from bishops, other leaders, and lay members in my office vary drastically. A lot of the variety depends on the age, where they grew up/lived, exposure to sexual education, and their families. They've ranged from adamantly against to talking positively. I had a bishop tell a concerned congregant, after learning the person was masturbating without porn or lust oriented thoughts and told the person that not only were they fine, but that they were learning the goodness that God gave them and that the person would be more capable of sharing themselves with their spouse later in life. Even bishops where they may really believe masturbating is not good, may be persuaded otherwise when I've talked to them. 

On top of that, there's no scriptures on masturbating. Period. 

So I think it's a shame you/the church entailed an era of fairly rigid attitudes around masturbating....but I do see it changing. And very capable of changing more.

With luv,

BD

I too am encouraged by trends away from guilt and shame over this issue. I didn't receive any instruction from my parents about sexuality, and I was determined I wasn't going to delegate that responsibility to the schools and church, so we started talking about things from a fairly early age (appropriate to their ages, of course). I felt that if sexuality was just something we talked about as a matter of course, it wouldn't be a big deal to talk about it during their teen years. Sounds like you have taught your children well.

[bsjkki]

Sl Trib has a new article up. https://www.sltrib.com/religion/2018/03/30/while-applauding-latest-changes-mormons-concede-they-are-no-cure-all-some-even-ask-why-have-these-worthiness-interviews/

"Finlayson-Fife has a different view: Mormon bishops should never ask about masturbation unless it is “compulsive… and out of line with healthy development.”

Otherwise, it is part of normal sexual maturation, she says. By asking about it so routinely, the church sends the message that the person who does it is “defective.”

“We need to shape a clear understanding of what constitutes normal sexuality, especially in our very positive understanding of sex,” the therapist says. “That kind of framing” is what Mormon couples will take into their marriage."

[jkwilliams]

3 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

Sl Trib has a new article up. https://www.sltrib.com/religion/2018/03/30/while-applauding-latest-changes-mormons-concede-they-are-no-cure-all-some-even-ask-why-have-these-worthiness-interviews/

"Finlayson-Fife has a different view: Mormon bishops should never ask about masturbation unless it is “compulsive… and out of line with healthy development.”

Otherwise, it is part of normal sexual maturation, she says. By asking about it so routinely, the church sends the message that the person who does it is “defective.”

“We need to shape a clear understanding of what constitutes normal sexuality, especially in our very positive understanding of sex,” the therapist says. “That kind of framing” is what Mormon couples will take into their marriage."

That's in line with my feelings. Attaching the guilt, shame, and feelings of "defectiveness" makes this fairly trivial thing take on huge proportions, and that's not healthy. BTW, I don't think she's "promoting" it, either, just suggesting a little perspective is in order.

Thanks for the quote. I've used up all my Trib articles for the month, so I can't see that.

[kllindley]

4 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

BTW, I don't think she's "promoting" it, either, just suggesting a little perspective is in order.

I read the quote as pretty much promoting it. I agree that it's a pretty fine line between trying to maintain that proper perspective, and outright disagreeing with the teaching that masturbation is at least on some level a sin, because it involves the use of procreate of powers outside of a covenant relationship.

[jkwilliams]

1 minute ago, kllindley said:

I read the quote as pretty much promoting it. I agree that it's a pretty fine line between trying to maintain that proper perspective, and outright disagreeing with the teaching that masturbation is at least on some level a sin, because it involves the use of procreate of powers outside of a covenant relationship.

I guess I distinguish between finding something "part of normal sexual maturation" and promoting it. YMMV.

[hope_for_things]

9 hours ago, kllindley said:

Unfortunately. This is a perfect example of how an individual who has every right to discover and decide his own beliefs becomes condescending and irrationally bigoted toward other beliefs. People really need to grow and learn to have conversations in a mature way. 

Are you saying that your response to me is an example of a mature conversation that isn't condescending?  

[kllindley]

3 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

Are you saying that your response to me is an example of a mature conversation that isn't condescending?  

Oh not at all. It was a deliberate choice to match your rhetorical style. 

[kllindley]

8 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

I guess I distinguish between finding something "part of normal sexual maturation" and promoting it. YMMV.

I can respect that and agree to disagree. 

[ALarson]

15 hours ago, JulieM said:

My husband has been very open with our sons about masturbatuon.  He had a horrible experience with a bishop when he was a young teen who instilled horrible guilt and self loathing over something that nearly every normal teenager (especially boys) have done.  It’s normal and doesn’t mean you’re a bad, sinful, evil person because you do it once in awhile.

My husband does not want our sons to feel the shame and guilt and self hatred that he lived with even into being an adult over the results of how he was dealt with.  And, for those who wonder, he just had an occasional slip and didn’t view porn.  But he had a leader who was relentless about the questions and he answered honestly.

He’s pretty much told our sons to avoid porn (he explained how harmful and habit forming it can be and also how it harms those involved in the industry) and to not become obsessed with it or allow it to become a harmful habit (masturbation).  But he told them an occasional slip is normal and that are completely normal to have the urges.  He joked that he’d much rather them do that than get a girl pregnant (they laughed about that and also understood).

We have a very honest, open relationship with our kids.  We mainly keep doors open and our computer is in plain sight too.

Sounds like you and your husband have handled this admirably.  I have tried to approach this in a similar manner with my boys (now all grown with kids of their own and they also plan to handle the topic of masturbation this way with their kids).

We need to get away from causing such tremendous guilt and shame over something that is very normal and natural to occur at times.  I'm not talking about compulsive behavior or a person spending hours each day in their bedroom or bathroom (or viewing porn).

I'm hopeful that more leaders will be called with this attitude (and I think that will happen with this next generation) about masturbation and sex.  I know my Bishop shares my views and refuses to interrogate the youth about masturbation or make them feel ashamed or evil over it.

Edited March 30, 2018 by ALarson

[Kevin Christensen]

Given that shaming is bad (except, obviously for shaming Mormons for shaming people), there is the question about what happens to a person who is utterly shameless?  There is a famous book on the topic called Healing the Shame that Binds you by John Bradshaw, who distinguishes between toxic shame that says, "I am defective and if people knew the whole truth about me they would reject me" and healthy shame that says, "I am human, am prone to making mistakes, and therefore, I need boundaries."  A person who is shameless is one who has no boundaries.  Their own desires of the moment trump all other considerations.

One of the opposites to both toxic and healthy shame is enabling, which has its own downside that ought to recognized and discussed, as a balance to the tendency to shame Mormons for shaming people because shaming bad except for shaming Mormons.  One of the reasons why sexuality is powerful is that the body chemistry includes chemicals of the same family as heroin and morphine.  And that is one factor in sex addiction, a progressive disease that involves increased craving and impaired judgement.   Surrounding a sex addict with sympathetic enablers as an alternative to toxic shamers does nothing to address the problem of addiction.   Telling a sex addict that what they are doing is natural, an integral part of their human identity, just the way they are, and something to be embraced without shame or boundaries has consequences.  So it is important to be able to recognize and diagnose sex addiction and distinguish it from normal sexuality.  Two of the main diagnostic behaviors that appear in sex addiction are 1- the conviction that "sex is my most important need" and 2, a tendency to dwell on resentments toward other people as a means to self-justification and entitlement.  "How sharply we became attuned to the defects of others. Our ability to detect hypocrisy in others seemed to increase in direct proportion to our own self-blindness, as though we had to sharpen our critical spirit to keep from looking inward...we were particularly blind to the perception of our addiction. Even though part of us knew the habit controlled us, it was often the one thing in our lives we thought we were controlling." (From the SA Whitebook, 54.)

According to Patrick Carnes, the difference between heroes and villains is that heroes face their fears and villains nurture their resentments.  And that is the difference between those who succeed in recovery and those who refuse to recognize that recovery is a desirable option.  It's also the difference between Alma and Laman and Lemuel in response to the angel.  The difference between Harry Potter and Voldemort, Thor and Loki... and it can be the difference between who we could become, and who we choose to be.

According to the DVD Pleasure Unwoven: The Science of Addition, the disease model had doubled the human lifespan in the past hundred years.

Organ + Damage = Symptoms. 

Heal the damage, the symptoms go away.  Just treat the symptoms, either by shaming or enabling, and the damage remains.  The damage in addiction involves increased craving and impaired judgement.  So healing the damage involves both a changing lifestyles to account for the craving and self examination in order to heal judgement.  Twelve step recovery, when done properly addresses both aspects of the damage, and leads to real healing.  It takes work, and about 1.5 to 2.5 years to do.  Not just self denial and suppression of a person's core self.  Addiction wears the person like a mask and then insists there is no mask.

Shame is a core component of any addictive behavior.  Shame is the feeling of being exposed when not ready or prepared or desiring it.  A core belief of addicts is often that if people knew me, they would reject me.   So a key component of the healing process is confession, not to inflict shame, but to release it.  It is not about being able to self-righteously point a finger and say "Shame on you!" That is what the process of At-one-ment was for.  Jesus entering into complete empathy and awareness of who we are, including the circumstances of all our decisions.  That, I think is the light of Christ, knowing us perfectly.   If we accept that he knows us as we are, and all we have done, and loves us, that heals the shame that binds us.  As part of my own healing I took a series of polygraphs.  The first one turned out the be one of the most healing experiences of my life, and is directly responsible for saving my marriage.  A weight left that had been so overwhelming present that until it was lifted, I did not realize it was there.  I've also seen it work many times in recovery situations, when a person comes to a meeting, hears other people share their stories, and listen to others without shaming one another.   In recovery, we don't reject one another, nor shame one another for mistakes, past or present.   We offer our own weakness as a gift to others to help them release their toxic shame.  But we don't enable either.

One way to tell the difference between normal sexuality and addiction is whether a person can easily go without.  If the notion of going without seems unthinkable and oppressive, consider that biologically what happens in addiction is that the brain is essentially tricked into treating something that should be optional as though it were essential to survival.  (See Pleasure Unwoven: The Science of Addiction for a detailed explanation.  You can get it from Amazon.)  Our personal values involve what gets compromised where there is a conflict between desirable options.   If sexuality is felt to be a need, an essential that cannot be compromised, then it is more likely to compromise other desirable things in the event of conflicts that inevitably come.  Things like honesty, homework, faith, family, safety, integrity, responsiblity.  If sexuality is an option, rather than a need, then Love can be the First and Great value, the thing that guides our relationship with God, others, and our selves.

And there is this, that I wrote a few years back, which has more details, and case studies and sources.

http://squaretwo.org/Sq2ArticleChristensenRashomon.html

It took a while to find a place to publish, and I prepared myself for a storm of criticism that never came.  I think because even entering the discussion involves a challenge to a social order that does not want to even raise the question.

FWIW

Kevin Christensen

Canonsburg, PA

 

[bsjkki]

37 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

That's in line with my feelings. Attaching the guilt, shame, and feelings of "defectiveness" makes this fairly trivial thing take on huge proportions, and that's not healthy. BTW, I don't think she's "promoting" it, either, just suggesting a little perspective is in order.

Thanks for the quote. I've used up all my Trib articles for the month, so I can't see that.

I just change browsers...I may need to add firefox into the mix. 

[jkwilliams]

Quote

Given that shaming is bad (except, obviously for shaming Mormons for shaming people), there is the question about what happens to a person who is utterly shameless?  There is a famous book on the topic called Healing the Shame that Binds you by John Bradshaw, who distinguishes between toxic shame that says, "I am defective and if people knew the whole truth about me they would reject me" and healthy shame that says, "I am human, am prone to making mistakes, and therefore, I need boundaries."  A person who is shameless is one who has no boundaries.  Their own desires of the moment trump all other considerations.

Is shame an appropriate response to masturbation? Seems to me that, if you take the shame out of the equation,.there is less possibility of compulsion. 

And this thread is not about shaming the church. I asked for perspectives, and I appreciate you sharing yours. I don't understand the need to take a cheap shot, especially in the first sentence of your post. 

Edited March 30, 2018 by jkwilliams

[hope_for_things]

An interesting article with some relevant discussion on this topic.  

https://www.sltrib.com/religion/2018/03/30/while-applauding-latest-changes-mormons-concede-they-are-no-cure-all-some-even-ask-why-have-these-worthiness-interviews

Quote

The ‘M’ word • Some parents want to be in the room because they don’t want the bishop to ask about masturbation, a practice they feel is little more than an infraction, says Salt Lake City attorney James McConkie, a former bishop. 

Other parents want to be there to guarantee the bishop has the same views they do — that masturbation is wrong and needs to stop.

The whole article is worth a read.  

[BlueDreams]

2 hours ago, jkwilliams said:

I too am encouraged by trends away from guilt and shame over this issue. I didn't receive any instruction from my parents about sexuality, and I was determined I wasn't going to delegate that responsibility to the schools and church, so we started talking about things from a fairly early age (appropriate to their ages, of course). I felt that if sexuality was just something we talked about as a matter of course, it wouldn't be a big deal to talk about it during their teen years. Sounds like you have taught your children well.

Well, more like hopefully will. No kids yet. But my fiance and I are very much in agreement with this. 

I agree, its generally suggested you talk about the basics about sexuality at a young age, because around 8-10, the gross factor kicks in and they assume they know everything anyways. So good on you and your family  

 

With luv,

BD

[jkwilliams]

Just now, BlueDreams said:

Well, more like hopefully will. No kids yet. But my fiance and I are very much in agreement with this. 

I agree, its generally suggested you talk about the basics about sexuality at a young age, because around 8-10, the gross factor kicks in and they assume they know everything anyways. So good on you and your family  

 

With luv,

BD

Oh, congratulations! That is very exciting. We have a wedding coming up in our family. Lots to do.

[kllindley]

6 minutes ago, Kevin Christensen said:

Given that shaming is bad (except, obviously for shaming Mormons for shaming people), there is the question about what happens to a person who is utterly shameless?  There is a famous book on the topic called Healing the Shame that Binds you by John Bradshaw, who distinguishes between toxic shame that says, "I am defective and if people knew the whole truth about me they would reject me" and healthy shame that says, "I am human, am prone to making mistakes, and therefore, I need boundaries."  A person who is shameless is one who has no boundaries.  Their own desires of the moment trump all other considerations.

One of the opposites to both toxic and healthy shame is enabling, which has its own downside that ought to recognized and discussed, as a balance to the tendency to shame Mormons for shaming people because shaming bad except for shaming Mormons.  One of the reasons why sexuality is powerful is that the body chemistry includes chemicals of the same family as heroin and morphine.  And that is one factor in sex addiction, a progressive disease that involves increased craving and impaired judgement.   Surrounding a sex addict with sympathetic enablers as an alternative to toxic shamers does nothing to address the problem of addiction.   Telling a sex addict that what they are doing is natural, an integral part of their human identity, just the way they are, and something to be embraced without shame or boundaries has consequences.  So it is important to be able to recognize and diagnose sex addiction and distinguish it from normal sexuality.  Two of the main diagnostic behaviors that appear in sex addiction are 1- the conviction that "sex is my most important need" and 2, a tendency to dwell on resentments toward other people as a means to self-justification and entitlement.  "How sharply we became attuned to the defects of others. Our ability to detect hypocrisy in others seemed to increase in direct proportion to our own self-blindness, as though we had to sharpen our critical spirit to keep from looking inward...we were particularly blind to the perception of our addiction. Even though part of us knew the habit controlled us, it was often the one thing in our lives we thought we were controlling." (From the SA Whitebook, 54.)

According to Patrick Carnes, the difference between heroes and villains is that heroes face their fears and villains nurture their resentments.  And that is the difference between those who succeed in recovery and those who refuse to recognize that recovery is a desirable option.  It's also the difference between Alma and Laman and Lemuel in response to the angel.  The difference between Harry Potter and Voldemort, Thor and Loki... and it can be the difference between who we could become, and who we choose to be.

According to the DVD Pleasure Unwoven: The Science of Addition, the disease model had doubled the human lifespan in the past hundred years.

Organ + Damage = Symptoms. 

Heal the damage, the symptoms go away.  Just treat the symptoms, either by shaming or enabling, and the damage remains.  The damage in addiction involves increased craving and impaired judgement.  So healing the damage involves both a changing lifestyles to account for the craving and self examination in order to heal judgement.  Twelve step recovery, when done properly addresses both aspects of the damage, and leads to real healing.  It takes work, and about 1.5 to 2.5 years to do.  Not just self denial and suppression of a person's core self.  Addiction wears the person like a mask and then insists there is no mask.

Shame is a core component of any addictive behavior.  Shame is the feeling of being exposed when not ready or prepared or desiring it.  A core belief of addicts is often that if people knew me, they would reject me.   So a key component of the healing process is confession, not to inflict shame, but to release it.  It is not about being able to self-righteously point a finger and say "Shame on you!" That is what the process of At-one-ment was for.  Jesus entering into complete empathy and awareness of who we are, including the circumstances of all our decisions.  That, I think is the light of Christ, knowing us perfectly.   If we accept that he knows us as we are, and all we have done, and loves us, that heals the shame that binds us.  As part of my own healing I took a series of polygraphs.  The first one turned out the be one of the most healing experiences of my life, and is directly responsible for saving my marriage.  A weight left that had been so overwhelming present that until it was lifted, I did not realize it was there.  I've also seen it work many times in recovery situations, when a person comes to a meeting, hears other people share their stories, and listen to others without shaming one another.   In recovery, we don't reject one another, nor shame one another for mistakes, past or present.   We offer our own weakness as a gift to others to help them release their toxic shame.  But we don't enable either.

One way to tell the difference between normal sexuality and addiction is whether a person can easily go without.  If the notion of going without seems unthinkable and oppressive, consider that biologically what happens in addiction is that the brain is essentially tricked into treating something that should be optional as though it were essential to survival.  (See Pleasure Unwoven: The Science of Addiction for a detailed explanation.  You can get it from Amazon.)  Our personal values involve what gets compromised where there is a conflict between desirable options.   If sexuality is felt to be a need, an essential that cannot be compromised, then it is more likely to compromise other desirable things in the event of conflicts that inevitably come.  Things like honesty, homework, faith, family, safety, integrity, responsiblity.  If sexuality is an option, rather than a need, then Love can be the First and Great value, the thing that guides our relationship with God, others, and our selves.

And there is this, that I wrote a few years back, which has more details, and case studies and sources.

http://squaretwo.org/Sq2ArticleChristensenRashomon.html

It took a while to find a place to publish, and I prepared myself for a storm of criticism that never came.  I think because even entering the discussion involves a challenge to a social order that does not want to even raise the question.

FWIW

Kevin Christensen

Canonsburg, PA

 

I think you've made some great points that contribute to the discussion greatly. 

I'm my groups on shame, we talk about how or goal is not too to eliminate shame or teach people do be shame proof. There is a name for people who don't feel shame. They are sociopaths. The goal is shame resilience. Being able to recognize shame, maintain clear perspective about where that shame comes from, and then use the experience of shame as a catalyst for connection instead of isolation.

[kllindley]

7 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

Is shame an appropriate response to masturbation? Seems to me that, if you take the shame out of the equation,.there is less possibility of compulsion. 

I would say absolutely not. Guilt would be. Though that guilt has to come from the individual's personal values system.

[BlueDreams]

5 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

An interesting article with some relevant discussion on this topic.  

https://www.sltrib.com/religion/2018/03/30/while-applauding-latest-changes-mormons-concede-they-are-no-cure-all-some-even-ask-why-have-these-worthiness-interviews

The whole article is worth a read.  

I think the article points to the bigger trend that I see in mormondom: views vastly range from family to family. I have seen this in my office time and time again. I think it points to an odd phenomenon that I've seen both on this board and IRL. We mormons often have a diverse range of beliefs and practices...but we assume unanimity more often than we should about our beliefs. 

With luv,

BD

[hope_for_things]

2 minutes ago, BlueDreams said:

I think the article points to the bigger trend that I see in mormondom: views vastly range from family to family. I have seen this in my office time and time again. I think it points to an odd phenomenon that I've seen both on this board and IRL. We mormons often have a diverse range of beliefs and practices...but we assume unanimity more often than we should about our beliefs. 

With luv,

BD

Yes, I completely agree.  I wonder how current events will influence the overall culture on these topics going forward into the future.  Will these events cause a polarization to the extremes on both ends?  

[jkwilliams]

10 minutes ago, BlueDreams said:

I think the article points to the bigger trend that I see in mormondom: views vastly range from family to family. I have seen this in my office time and time again. I think it points to an odd phenomenon that I've seen both on this board and IRL. We mormons often have a diverse range of beliefs and practices...but we assume unanimity more often than we should about our beliefs. 

With luv,

BD

Yes, if there's one thing I've learned, it's that my Mormon experience is not the same as yours. To me, being asked, in detail, about masturbation in bishop's interviews was routine, but for others, it's something I must have made up as crude propaganda. If nothing else, at least in this area, my experience seems to be becoming more of an outlier. That's a good thing.

 

Edited March 30, 2018 by jkwilliams

[BlueDreams]

18 minutes ago, Kevin Christensen said:

Given that shaming is bad (except, obviously for shaming Mormons for shaming people), there is the question about what happens to a person who is utterly shameless?  There is a famous book on the topic called Healing the Shame that Binds you by John Bradshaw, who distinguishes between toxic shame that says, "I am defective and if people knew the whole truth about me they would reject me" and healthy shame that says, "I am human, am prone to making mistakes, and therefore, I need boundaries."  A person who is shameless is one who has no boundaries.  Their own desires of the moment trump all other considerations.

One of the opposites to both toxic and healthy shame is enabling, which has its own downside that ought to recognized and discussed, as a balance to the tendency to shame Mormons for shaming people because shaming bad except for shaming Mormons.  One of the reasons why sexuality is powerful is that the body chemistry includes chemicals of the same family as heroin and morphine.  And that is one factor in sex addiction, a progressive disease that involves increased craving and impaired judgement.   Surrounding a sex addict with sympathetic enablers as an alternative to toxic shamers does nothing to address the problem of addiction.   Telling a sex addict that what they are doing is natural, an integral part of their human identity, just the way they are, and something to be embraced without shame or boundaries has consequences.  So it is important to be able to recognize and diagnose sex addiction and distinguish it from normal sexuality.  Two of the main diagnostic behaviors that appear in sex addiction are 1- the conviction that "sex is my most important need" and 2, a tendency to dwell on resentments toward other people as a means to self-justification and entitlement.  "How sharply we became attuned to the defects of others. Our ability to detect hypocrisy in others seemed to increase in direct proportion to our own self-blindness, as though we had to sharpen our critical spirit to keep from looking inward...we were particularly blind to the perception of our addiction. Even though part of us knew the habit controlled us, it was often the one thing in our lives we thought we were controlling." (From the SA Whitebook, 54.)

According to Patrick Carnes, the difference between heroes and villains is that heroes face their fears and villains nurture their resentments.  And that is the difference between those who succeed in recovery and those who refuse to recognize that recovery is a desirable option.  It's also the difference between Alma and Laman and Lemuel in response to the angel.  The difference between Harry Potter and Voldemort, Thor and Loki... and it can be the difference between who we could become, and who we choose to be.

I think there is a wide world between shame and enabling in reactions towards masturbation, pornography, and sexuality. And sexual addiction is more likely to be bred in silence about their sexuality with sporadic shame messages about their budding sexuality than it is in a household that openly discussed sex. I haven't read the thread very thoroughly (I probably shouldn't be on right now...busy day...like all my days lately ) , but I haven't seen anyone suggest that they should allow any sexual behavior from their children to be promoted and given a slide. Masturbation is not the same as sex addiction. Not even close. And it has benefits in developing sexuality and overall sexual health. 

On a physiological side, I've found that people who've masturbated are more likely to orgasm with their sexual partners. It leads to smoother transitions to a sexual relationship in marriage, because they know their body, arousal patterns, and what they generally prefer. 

On a psychological side, masturbation and body exploration help people feel less grossed out and nervous around their body. Many of the women I work with who have never masturbated or masturbated with a ton of personal same toward the experience, have a difficult time accepting their sexual arousal process. They are often leery of their body, don't take ownership of their sex organs, and are uncertain about what arouses them.

On a relational level, masturbation can teach ownership of ones own pleasure and - when taught right - the idea of sharing oneself with your partner. 

It can have spiritual benefits as well, as they are more likely to accept their body's experiences and learn to cherish it (again, if masturbation is not done with shame and is taught in a proper context of body consciousness and self-pleasure....not hijacked by early exposure to porn)

I'm not mentioning all of the potential pluses to masturbation, but I hope this gives an idea about what masturbation can be to an individual and subsequently, a marriage's health.

Though Patrick Carnes and others have given a lot to help treat sexual behavior that's leading to addictive symptomology....their models of treatment still has some holes IMO. 2 Small examples:

- the models that I've seen treating sex addiction acknowledges the need for learning healthy sex, but often neglects said development. I've seen people where drying up the porn or sex addiction also dried up their libido. That's a big problem to me.....like if we had a binge eater go into treatment and end up an anorexic. 

- Their means of diagnosis is too broad.  I was curious when I found a questionnaire from a reputable sight, whether I would qualify for  a sex addiction. Sure enough I did....even though I had never had sex and never viewed pornography and deeply valued my sexuality and expressed it congruent to my relational and personal patterns. I have had clients that believed and were told that they had a porn or sex addiction, only to have me explore their constructs and realize they didn't really have one. I was often the first to say so after years of treatments and talking to ecclesiastical leaders. That's a problem.

 

Quote

 

According to the DVD Pleasure Unwoven: The Science of Addition, the disease model had doubled the human lifespan in the past hundred years.

Organ + Damage = Symptoms. 

Heal the damage, the symptoms go away.  Just treat the symptoms, either by shaming or enabling, and the damage remains.  The damage in addiction involves increased craving and impaired judgement.  So healing the damage involves both a changing lifestyles to account for the craving and self examination in order to heal judgement.  Twelve step recovery, when done properly addresses both aspects of the damage, and leads to real healing.  It takes work, and about 1.5 to 2.5 years to do.  Not just self denial and suppression of a person's core self.  Addiction wears the person like a mask and then insists there is no mask.

 

fun fact. I went to UCAP recently, and they talked about how the disease model to sex addiction (and addiction in general) is being replaced by a learning disorder model. Which, IMO, fits more what I see with sex addiction cases. They're not sick in the classic sense of the word, they've learn sex as a coping tool to pain with little/no ability to face their emotional traumas or struggles. Any deep emotions are difficult for them to process...even joy....so porn or sex is a way to remain in homeostasis. Again, masturbation as a neutral construct means that parents and society would have to teach proper behavior and place for masturbations. Placing boundaries about where, when, and how one masturbates as well as teaching children how to recognize and healthily emotionally regulate, would easily reduce the concerns for possible addiction states. 

Shame is a core component of any addictive behavior.  Shame is the feeling of being exposed when not ready or prepared or desiring it.  A core belief of addicts is often that if people knew me, they would reject me.   So a key component of the healing process is confession, not to inflict shame, but to release it.  It is not about being able to self-righteously point a finger and say "Shame on you!" That is what the process of At-one-ment was for.  Jesus entering into complete empathy and awareness of who we are, including the circumstances of all our decisions.  That, I think is the light of Christ, knowing us perfectly.   If we accept that he knows us as we are, and all we have done, and loves us, that heals the shame that binds us.  As part of my own healing I took a series of polygraphs.  The first one turned out the be one of the most healing experiences of my life, and is directly responsible for saving my marriage.  A weight left that had been so overwhelming present that until it was lifted, I did not realize it was there.  I've also seen it work many times in recovery situations, when a person comes to a meeting, hears other people share their stories, and listen to others without shaming one another.   In recovery, we don't reject one another, nor shame one another for mistakes, past or present.   We offer our own weakness as a gift to others to help them release their toxic shame.  But we don't enable either.

One way to tell the difference between normal sexuality and addiction is whether a person can easily go without.  If the notion of going without seems unthinkable and oppressive, consider that biologically what happens in addiction is that the brain is essentially tricked into treating something that should be optional as though it were essential to survival.  (See Pleasure Unwoven: The Science of Addiction for a detailed explanation.  You can get it from Amazon.)  Our personal values involve what gets compromised where there is a conflict between desirable options.   If sexuality is felt to be a need, an essential that cannot be compromised, then it is more likely to compromise other desirable things in the event of conflicts that inevitably come.  Things like honesty, homework, faith, family, safety, integrity, responsiblity.  If sexuality is an option, rather than a need, then Love can be the First and Great value, the thing that guides our relationship with God, others, and our selves.

And there is this, that I wrote a few years back, which has more details, and case studies and sources.

http://squaretwo.org/Sq2ArticleChristensenRashomon.html

It took a while to find a place to publish, and I prepared myself for a storm of criticism that never came.  I think because even entering the discussion involves a challenge to a social order that does not want to even raise the question.

 I believe sexuality is fundamental to healthy human development. Not all forms of sexual expression are made equal and one doesn't need a specific sexual expression to be healthy or centered in their sexuality. But sexuality to me is not an option. And it's a concern for me with addiction models to sexual behaviors that they may inadvertently be throwing the baby out with the bathwater about this.

Well I should probably do my day now....

With luv,

BD

[mnn727]

20 hours ago, jkwilliams said:

Whether you think masturbation is a sin or not, I'm curious as to how church members today feel it is best to approach the topic. Do you tend toward the zero-tolerance approach of my younger days, or do you have a different perspective?

I wouldn't approach the subject at all with youths unless they felt they had a problem with it and came to me to talk about it. Like your sons MP/Urologist I also think that every so often its probably healthy to "clean out the pipes."