The M-Word

[mnn727]

10 hours ago, SamuelTheLamanite said:

. Women make five dollars an hour and have to work 16 hours every day.

Where's you get that idea? There was just a story in the news about a young woman paying for law college by doing porn. If she was only making $5 an hour she should have gone to work for McDonalds instead. I would have to question your other statements also since this one is incorrect.

Edited March 30, 2018 by mnn727

[EdGoble]

17 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Just make sure you point out to a teen that if they fail to abstain from this that they are basically an adulterer and just short of being a murderer.

Don't be silly.  I just teach my kids that it is sinful to beat off, like its sinful to look at porn, or sinful to drink beer.  That doesn't make them the least bit close to adulterers or murderers.

Edited March 30, 2018 by EdGoble

[Jeanne]

3 hours ago, jkwilliams said:

Yes, if there's one thing I've learned, it's that my Mormon experience is not the same as yours. To me, being asked, in detail, about masturbation in bishop's interviews was routine, but for others, it's something I must have made up as crude propaganda. If nothing else, at least in this area, my experience seems to be becoming more of an outlier. That's a good thing.

 

It depends on the Bishops I guess..My son said he was never asked...but my daughter was..

[SamuelTheLamanite]

 

3 hours ago, BlueDreams said:

 Masturbation is not the same as sex addiction. Not even close. And it has benefits in developing sexuality and overall sexual health. 

On a physiological side, I've found that people who've masturbated are more likely to orgasm with their sexual partners. It leads to smoother transitions to a sexual relationship in marriage, because they know their body, arousal patterns, and what they generally prefer. 

On a psychological side, masturbation and body exploration help people feel less grossed out and nervous around their body. Many of the women I work with who have never masturbated or masturbated with a ton of personal same toward the experience, have a difficult time accepting their sexual arousal process. They are often leery of their body, don't take ownership of their sex organs, and are uncertain about what arouses them.

Masturbation is toxic to our spiritual health.

3 hours ago, BlueDreams said:

 I have had clients that believed and were told that they had a porn or sex addiction, only to have me explore their constructs and realize they didn't really have one. I was often the first to say so after years of treatments and talking to ecclesiastical leaders. That's a problem.

Pornography is the exact opposite to the gospel. The Gospel strengthens families, but pornography destroys them. We can read many testimonies in facebook on how the church has saved marriages. In addiction recovery forums we only read sad stories on how pornography destroyed a family. Pornography is a toxic problem and should be illegal. 

6 hours ago, jkwilliams said:

I agree that pornography is antithetical to the teachings of the LDS church. That said, I don't think you can show a link between the availability of pornography and the incidence of sexual assault. And I'm not sure the word "survivor" is appropriate. You survive a car accident or cancer or abuse. Choosing to look at pornography is not something you survive.

In recovery forums we can read stories of many survivors. The word survivor is appropriate because pornography is destructive. There is a link between the availability of pornography and the incidence of sexual assault.  Our prophet Spencer W Kiball taught "“It is ridiculous to imply that pornography has no effect. There is a definite relationship to crime. Murder, robbery, rape, prostitution, and commercialized vice are fed on this immorality. Sex crime statistics seem to reflect a relationship between crime and pornography."

22 hours ago, smac97 said:

Consuming pornography also contributes to the demand for pornography, and hence is complicit to some extent in the risks and abuses often found in that industry.

You make an excellent point brother smac97. Please help me with Festus in the other thread. He is defending pornography, but we must fight back. We must fight back by defending the truth.

http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/70322-prohibition-yea-or-nay/?page=8

 

Edited March 30, 2018 by SamuelTheLamanite

[SamuelTheLamanite]

2 hours ago, mnn727 said:

Where's you get that idea? There was just a story in the news about a young woman paying for law college by doing porn. If she was only making $5 an hour she should have gone to work for McDonalds instead. I would have to question your other statements also since this one is incorrect.

Our prophet Spencer W Kiball taught "“It is ridiculous to imply that pornography has no effect. There is a definite relationship to crime. Murder, robbery, rape, prostitution, and commercialized vice are fed on this immorality. Sex crime statistics seem to reflect a relationship between crime and pornography." 

I read the $5 an hour in a Youtube comment. I am looking for it so I can share it.

[The Nehor]

4 hours ago, kllindley said:

I read the quote as pretty much promoting it. I agree that it's a pretty fine line between trying to maintain that proper perspective, and outright disagreeing with the teaching that masturbation is at least on some level a sin, because it involves the use of procreate of powers outside of a covenant relationship.

So does a nocturnal emission but God designed us to do it. So either God set us up to fail or our thinking is a little off.

[The Nehor]

2 hours ago, mnn727 said:

Where's you get that idea? There was just a story in the news about a young woman paying for law college by doing porn. If she was only making $5 an hour she should have gone to work for McDonalds instead. I would have to question your other statements also since this one is incorrect.

He is way off generally. I suspect he is confusing porn work with studies on prostitution and even there the sex trafficking kind. He and reality are not really on speaking terms.

[The Nehor]

18 minutes ago, SamuelTheLamanite said:

I read the $5 an hour in a Youtube comment. I am looking for it so I can share it.

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, EdGoble said:

Don't be silly.  I just teach my kids that it is sinful to beat off, like its sinful to look at porn, or sinful to drink beer.  That doesn't make them the least bit close to adulterers or murderers.

I am not being silly. I know of people who were taught all sexual sin is basically on the same level. I was not but it can happen.

[kllindley]

30 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

So does a nocturnal emission but God designed us to do it. So either God set us up to fail or our thinking is a little off.

I think there is a huge difference between an involuntary autonomic process and a volitional act. Are you disagreeing with that distinction?

And, yeah I generally believe that God sets us up to fail. That's pretty much the entire message of the Old and New Testament. The law makes us sinners, we inescapably live in mortality. 

[kllindley]

24 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I am not being silly. I know of people who were taught all sexual sin is basically on the same level. I was not but it can happen.

It's true. I was taught this. It's not clear to me that the only other alternative is to insist it's not a sin at all. 

[The Nehor]

4 minutes ago, kllindley said:

I think there is a huge difference between an involuntary autonomic process and a volitional act. Are you disagreeing with that distinction?

And, yeah I generally believe that God sets us up to fail. That's pretty much the entire message of the Old and New Testament. The law makes us sinners, we inescapably live in mortality. 

An autonomic process that usually involves an erotic dream. I do not see a huge distinction.

Remind me to stop being grateful to God in my prayers from now on.

[The Nehor]

5 minutes ago, kllindley said:

It's true. I was taught this. It's not clear to me that the only other alternative is to insist it's not a sin at all. 

I did not suggest it was. I am honestly not sure whether it is sin or not but if it is a sin I put it with minor ones like being short tempered with someone, minor gluttony, sleeping through a service project, and things of that nature.

[kllindley]

1 minute ago, The Nehor said:

An autonomic process that usually involves an erotic dream. I do not see a huge distinction.

Remind me to stop being grateful to God in my prayers from now on.

Do you think the content of dreams is voluntary? I've never experienced any sense of being able to control my dreams. 

I'm assuming some sarcasm, but really don't know.  You seem surprised by that answer.  I thought that was the whole reason we need Christ. Because everyone is equally and eternally screwed without him. 

[The Nehor]

1 minute ago, kllindley said:

Do you think the content of dreams is voluntary? I've never experienced any sense of being able to control my dreams. 

I'm assuming some sarcasm, but really don't know.  You seem surprised by that answer.  I thought that was the whole reason we need Christ. Because everyone is equally and eternally screwed without him. 

We are but that we were set up to fail seems......cruel. We were set up to experience good and evil. Lucid dreaming is a thing. I have done it a few times. It is amazing to control your dreams. Wish it happened more often.

[kllindley]

5 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I did not suggest it was. I am honestly not sure whether it is sin or not but if it is a sin I put it with minor ones like being short tempered with someone, minor gluttony, sleeping through a service project, and things of that nature.

My example was a cup of coffee. But yeah. Much closer to those than adultery.

[kllindley]

4 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

We are but that we were set up to fail seems......cruel. We were set up to experience good and evil. 

Sounds like a semantic preference. It also sounds cruel the God sentences everyone to death. 

[pogi]

This is a really interesting thread for me to read.  I am surprised at how open and honest people are about M...that is a good thing.  As a recovering porn addict myself, the two (M and P) are inseparable actions and are analogous in function.  One will always be a trigger for the other, therefore M is not an option for me anymore, as I do my best to avoid all triggers.  It feels like the majority here agree that P is bad and harmful, but that M is spiritually neutral and physiologically good and healthy.  This is a little hard for me to wrap my head around quite honestly.  Let me explain.  

If we list all of the reasons as to why P might be spiritually damaging, the list might include -  lust, objectification of women, unhealthy coping mechanism, etc.  If P is bad for these reasons, I am having a hard time understanding why M would not be a spiritually questionable practice for the same reasons.  Let's be honest, how many guys can successfully arouse themselves sufficiently to perform M without using lustful thoughts/fantasy in thinking about the act (thus objectifying women in their minds), and just as P can be used as an unhealthy coping mechanism, so too can M (not arguing that it always is thought).  Maybe that is just me, with my messed up addict mind, but somehow I suspect that very few, if any, guys are capable of arousing this physiological response without getting a little lustful.  Am I crazy?  I am open to be corrected on this, but it just seems...unlikely.  So, how does one condone M without condoning lust?  It is true that M is not forbidden in the scriptures,, but lust is... is M not simply a more physical indulgence in lustful thinking? 

I think that people are wrong to conflate spiritual boundaries (rules/commandments) with toxic shame.  One can create healthy boundaries and expectations without inflicting toxic shame.  And contrary to popular belief, one can be happy and fulfilled without M.  I am happier and more spiritually/emotionally connected in recovery, then I ever have been.  

I agree that M should not be included in bishop interviews, but I don't think it should be taken out of the FTSOY pamphlet.  There is such a taboo about it in families and church...that is harmful.  We need to feel free and open about discussing it, fully appreciating the fact that most people will practice it at some point in their lives.  That is ok.  We all make mistakes, we don't need to beat ourselves up about it with self-loathing and toxic shame. 

I do understand the argument that it is healthy for human sexuality in preparation for marriage, but aren't those things that we can learn along the way in marriage?  Those that seem to run into problems with sex in marriage come from families where sex is taboo and forbidden to discuss, potentially leading to toxic shame and unhealthy perspectives about their bodies and sex.  The problem is when people believe that sex/sexuality is dirty/bad/evil before marriage, then suddenly it is beautiful, pure, and holy after marriage.  That doesn't work!  We can teach that it is good, holy, and beautiful and that there is nothing dirty about their body parts etc. but that we are counseled to bridal those healthy passions until marriage.

[HappyJackWagon]

1 hour ago, kllindley said:

I think there is a huge difference between an involuntary autonomic process and a volitional act. Are you disagreeing with that distinction?

And, yeah I generally believe that God sets us up to fail. That's pretty much the entire message of the Old and New Testament. The law makes us sinners, we inescapably live in mortality. 

What's the purpose in setting us up to fail by making things even harder than they need to be? Does God make us fail so he can be the hero by providing Jesus and the atonement? That seems awfully cynical. Will we only love God because he saves us from a condition he created.

It reminds me of the movie While You Were Sleeping. Peter was well known as a boy (even having a picture and an article in the newspaper) for having saved some newborn squirrels who fell out of their nest. It turns out he first threw rocks at them, causing them to fall out. Then he saved them. Should he really get credit for saving them from the poor condition he created?

https://youtu.be/UWGicTgxXLY

[jkwilliams]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

He is way off generally. I suspect he is confusing porn work with studies on prostitution and even there the sex trafficking kind. He and reality are not really on speaking terms.

I’m still thinking this is satire. 

[BlueDreams]

2 hours ago, SamuelTheLamanite said:

 

Masturbation is toxic to our spiritual health.

Pornography is the exact opposite to the gospel. The Gospel strengthens families, but pornography destroys them. We can read many testimonies in facebook on how the church has saved marriages. In addiction recovery forums we only read sad stories on how pornography destroyed a family. Pornography is a toxic problem and should be illegal. 

What is your evidence that masturbation is toxic to spiritual health? I gave evidence to my assertions. Simply making an assertion does not naturally make it true. 

I'm not sure why you are telling me about porn when my point was to differentiate between pornography and masturbation. Introducing porn at a young age, IMO, is a form of child abuse or negligence and a major blinspot in our society. It can hijack developing sexuality to view people, their bodies, and themselves in distorted ways.  It irritates me that porn is at a point that people often experience explicit distorted sex images before they've even experienced their own sexuality in any way. 

That said, not all porn is made equal either. If a married couple likes to send sexual images to each other of themselves as a means to maintain a sexual relationship over long distance or just to play, that's not "opposite to the gospel." Even though they're sending things "meant to arouse" (ie the broad definition of pornography). On top of that, what is considered porn varies from person to person. Painting with broad brushes when discussing sexuality is not helpful and continues many of the problems that we as a community still face surrounding sexuality.  

 

With luv,

BD

Edited March 30, 2018 by BlueDreams

[The Nehor]

56 minutes ago, kllindley said:

Sounds like a semantic preference. It also sounds cruel the God sentences everyone to death. 

I, for one, look forward to death. This world has not been so kind to me that I would regret leaving it.

[The Nehor]

8 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

I’m still thinking this is satire. 

Could be but that came close to blatantly jumping the shark. I still think he might just be mentally disabled or just stupid.

[jkwilliams]

Just now, The Nehor said:

Could be but that came close to blatantly jumping the shark. I still think he might just be mentally disabled or just stupid.

It’s either satire or a 14 year old boy who’s been reading too much Joseph Fielding Smith. 

[The Nehor]

1 minute ago, jkwilliams said:

It’s either satire or a 14 year old boy who’s been reading too much Joseph Fielding Smith. 

Or pretty far along the autism spectrum.