How can one trust the Holy Ghost

[pogi]

21 minutes ago, SamuelTheLamanite said:

Bill is asking "How can one trust the Holy Ghost?". I don't think saying "Science ....  doesn`t have all of the answers or always get things right" answers his question. 

If Bill trust science he would probably give us many reasons, but science is not the topic. 

I think it is a fair comparison.  Should we stop trusting science because the human element sometimes gets it wrong?  

We would be laughed at if we asked, “should science be trusted because some scientist got it wrong back in the 1800’s”? 

[Storm Rider]

3 hours ago, DBMormon said:

Recognizing that Prophets, Seers, and Revelators have taught false Doctrine in the Past
Brigham for example taught that his knowing that Heavenly Father was Michael/Adam came via Revelation.  He also taught that the many of the lay members knew by revelation that he spoke the truth.  

Another example is that many members "knew" that the Church doctrines that those of color were less valiant or were cursed was true and Church leaders such as George Albert Smith taught that such was from God and was in deed Doctrine.

So the question.  If A Prophet can be deceived and think something is from revelation and/or Holy Ghost and the members of his time also feel such is true by the power of the Holy Ghost only to have later leaders disavow such teachings as false theories based on racism and in the Adam/God instance Elder McConkie taught that in terms of Brigham having taught that false Doctrine

Then......  How can we ever trust our ability to discern what is really the Holy Ghost and what are false theories?  If Prophets struggle to discern and members are on record struggling to discern those prophets who struggled to discern, then it seems ineffective for any of us individually or collectively to have any certainty that what the spirit seems to be telling us is true, is in all actuality the Holy Ghost testifying of what is true, and not just our own individual delusions or collective delusions?

I think you are falling into the camp of those who think that as soon as a man is called as a prophet that they lose their humanity and become perfect vessels.  This is a false understanding of the humanity of every mortal. 

For me the question is not how can we trust the Holy Ghost as the title put it, but how can I recognize his voice and inspirations at all times.  Of course, this also requires that I be able to distinguish his voice from my own desires, wants, and human understanding.  One of my weaknesses or, at times, strengths is my concern that I avoid the philosophies of men regardless of how good they sound.  It may make me a little more resistant to change than most, but I believe it also protects me from the "cunning craftiness" of the evil one. 

Lastly, I don't believe that men, even prophets, are capable of always speaking the truth in all they say.  I believe mortals are frail and completely capable of either becoming proud and relying on their own understanding or simply ignoring or not seeking after the guidance of the Holy Spirit in all things.  As we have been challenged by prophets, including Brigham Young, we must seek a confirmation of the Spirit that their teachings are true.  What better advice from prophets could we want?  Having given such advice why would we then think they are perfect?

[Robert F. Smith]

3 hours ago, DBMormon said:

Recognizing that Prophets, Seers, and Revelators have taught false Doctrine in the Past
Brigham for example taught that his knowing that Heavenly Father was Michael/Adam came via Revelation.  He also taught that the many of the lay members knew by revelation that he spoke the truth.  

Another example is that many members "knew" that the Church doctrines that those of color were less valiant or were cursed was true and Church leaders such as George Albert Smith taught that such was from God and was in deed Doctrine.

So the question.  If A Prophet can be deceived and think something is from revelation and/or Holy Ghost and the members of his time also feel such is true by the power of the Holy Ghost only to have later leaders disavow such teachings as false theories based on racism and in the Adam/God instance Elder McConkie taught that in terms of Brigham having taught that false Doctrine

Then......  How can we ever trust our ability to discern what is really the Holy Ghost and what are false theories?  If Prophets struggle to discern and members are on record struggling to discern those prophets who struggled to discern, then it seems ineffective for any of us individually or collectively to have any certainty that what the spirit seems to be telling us is true, is in all actuality the Holy Ghost testifying of what is true, and not just our own individual delusions or collective delusions?

Too bad, Bill, that you don't take the responsible approach by citing and quoting your sources, or simply admitting that you don't have a source and can't be bothered with sources -- since the subject matter isn't important enough to demand serious forensic argument (sources, reason, and logic).

As always you ignore key provisions in drawing your facile conclusions:

1. You refuse to read Mormon claims in the context of ancient Scripture, which would temper your wild interpretations and assertions.

2. You refuse to recognize the human limitations (fallibility) of everybody, including claimants to revelation and inspiration.

3. You refuse to take individual responsibility for verification of any claims made by leaders -- something which Brother Brigham insisted upon.

An attentive and faithful Mormon is respectful of Mormon leaders, fallible though they are, and considers their claims in context, praying about them and putting them to the acid test (Alma 32).  He steps back and considers the big picture, realizing that mistakes can and will be made as we all jostle and dance our way into eternity.  That is the guarantee.  The crucial question is whether we will handle false claims the way Orson Pratt did when he witnessed Brigham going off the rails.  Notice that Pratt did not apostatize, and that today it is his correct view which prevails.

[Brother Bear]

24 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

handle false claims the way Orson Pratt did when he witnessed Brigham going off the rails.  Notice that Pratt did not apostatize, and that today it is his correct view which prevails.

How did Pratt typically handle BY's going off the rails?

(Sorry to be lazy, but you're much more efficient in providing good references than I am at googling)

[mfbukowski]

3 hours ago, DBMormon said:

Recognizing that Prophets, Seers, and Revelators have taught false Doctrine in the Past
Brigham for example taught that his knowing that Heavenly Father was Michael/Adam came via Revelation.  He also taught that the many of the lay members knew by revelation that he spoke the truth.  

Another example is that many members "knew" that the Church doctrines that those of color were less valiant or were cursed was true and Church leaders such as George Albert Smith taught that such was from God and was in deed Doctrine.

So the question.  If A Prophet can be deceived and think something is from revelation and/or Holy Ghost and the members of his time also feel such is true by the power of the Holy Ghost only to have later leaders disavow such teachings as false theories based on racism and in the Adam/God instance Elder McConkie taught that in terms of Brigham having taught that false Doctrine
 

Then......  How can we ever trust our ability to discern what is really the Holy Ghost and what are false theories?  If Prophets struggle to discern and members are on record struggling to discern those prophets who struggled to discern, then it seems ineffective for any of us individually or collectively to have any certainty that what the spirit seems to be telling us is true, is in all actuality the Holy Ghost testifying of what is true, and not just our own individual delusions or collective delusions?

You have to understand that religion is not science. It is not about observable Truth.

Ever notice God is not visible?

Read the thread about Taves now available.

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said:

How can one trust the Holy Ghost?

How much wood would a woodchuck chuck, if a woodchuck could chuck wood?  

A woodchuck would chuck all the wood a woodchuck could chuck if a woodchuck could chuck wood.

And yes, I just said it out loud without a mistake so it counts.

[The Nehor]

2 hours ago, SamuelTheLamanite said:

For sure Nehor, but there are too many skeptics on the board, including you  

Faith has things it is meant to be placed in. Faith in other things is often foolishness even when it is not idolatry. Credulousness does not always equal faith.

[BlueDreams]

17 hours ago, DBMormon said:

Then......  How can we ever trust our ability to discern what is really the Holy Ghost and what are false theories?  If Prophets struggle to discern and members are on record struggling to discern those prophets who struggled to discern, then it seems ineffective for any of us individually or collectively to have any certainty that what the spirit seems to be telling us is true, is in all actuality the Holy Ghost testifying of what is true, and not just our own individual delusions or collective delusions?

I've never really got the point of this point of view. It's one of the things I find most irritating because it feels like the epitome of throwing out the baby with the bathwater. All for the glory of having an empty tub. To me it's more ineffective to chronically be in a state of questioning everything I feel, see, touch, and experience for some "higher" state of not truly having absolute certifiable and perfect knowledge about everything.  That just immobilizes spiritual and personal development for me. My experience with the Spirit has generally been able to expedite growth and enhance experiences for mine and others betterment. When I sit there floundering and overthinking about what is real that's when I'm more likely to be ineffective and stuck. 

I'll stick with my delusions, the hallucinations have made me a better person. It's the best form of schizophrenia I could hope for.  

 

With luv,

BD

Edited October 31, 2017 by BlueDreams

[Robert F. Smith]

1 hour ago, Brother Bear said:

How did Pratt typically handle BY's going off the rails?

(Sorry to be lazy, but you're much more efficient in providing good references than I am at googling)

He staunchly opposed the Adam-God theory, and also opposed restrictions on ordination of Black men.

[Darren10]

5 hours ago, DBMormon said:

Recognizing that Prophets, Seers, and Revelators have taught false Doctrine in the Past
Brigham for example taught that his knowing that Heavenly Father was Michael/Adam came via Revelation.  He also taught that the many of the lay members knew by revelation that he spoke the truth.  

Another example is that many members "knew" that the Church doctrines that those of color were less valiant or were cursed was true and Church leaders such as George Albert Smith taught that such was from God and was in deed Doctrine.

So the question.  If A Prophet can be deceived and think something is from revelation and/or Holy Ghost and the members of his time also feel such is true by the power of the Holy Ghost only to have later leaders disavow such teachings as false theories based on racism and in the Adam/God instance Elder McConkie taught that in terms of Brigham having taught that false Doctrine
 

Then......  How can we ever trust our ability to discern what is really the Holy Ghost and what are false theories?  If Prophets struggle to discern and members are on record struggling to discern those prophets who struggled to discern, then it seems ineffective for any of us individually or collectively to have any certainty that what the spirit seems to be telling us is true, is in all actuality the Holy Ghost testifying of what is true, and not just our own individual delusions or collective delusions?

When I was young, I started singing, “do what is right, let the consequences follow”. When I grew up I realized that was one way to feel and recognize the Holy Spirit. Instead of being skeptical, try it sometime. 

Edited October 31, 2017 by Darren10

[JLHPROF]

1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said:

 The crucial question is whether we will handle false claims the way Orson Pratt did when he witnessed Brigham going off the rails.  Notice that Pratt did not apostatize, and that today it is his correct view which prevails.

Really not sure what you are saying here.  Orson vs Brigham involved Orson nearly being excommunicated, forced to recant publicly. And some would say led his removal from succession to the Presidency.  

[Darren10]

3 hours ago, DBMormon said:

 

 

 

 

 

That is my quoting your quotation post. Here I will repeat what I’ve a few times before: don’t take every word spoken as doctrine. Instead, measure up what was taught with the Standard Works. If the words of the prophets do not measure up to them, then there is no need for you to believe them and especially no need for you to put faith into those words. You may believe in those words as speculation but certainly not as standard LDS doctrine. I think doing this alone helps people feel and recognize the Holy Spirit and it most certainly erases much internal confusion which I get a sense you have.  

Edited October 31, 2017 by Darren10

[Darren10]

3 hours ago, Stargazer said:

I agree with your second line completely.

As for the first, I once married a woman I thought I had divine confirmation to marry.  It turned out to be the worst four years of my life.  But in this case, it was what I was supposed to do.  Much later I recognized it as the Lord telling me that now that I had made my bed, I needed to sleep in it. 

The best story I’ve ever heard regarding divine guidance as whom to marry came from one of my BYU roomates. He said he was praying about whom to marry and that the Lord told him whom it should be. Then he said, “but I don’t want to marry her” and ended that “revelation”. He got married to the girl he was eying and they had a great marriage for so long as I knew based on my staying in touch with him on campus. I like his story because I think he was totally within his right to respond that way to God. He was a very humble person and so he would never backtalk God but I think that it is very rare, extremely rare, that one specific person *has to* marry another specific person. My adivse to others is that if the person you are interested in is a good person and you enjoy being with that person, marry him or her. Of course allow God to guide you and influence you but that’s really basically it.

[carbon dioxide]

I can trust the Holy Ghost.  What I not be able to trust is how I understand the Holy Ghost.  A person can misinterpret what the spirit reveals to them or may add their own two cents beyond what the spirit says and introduce error or misinformation to what the spirit really revealed to them.

[sunstoned]

4 hours ago, Stargazer said:

I do trust the Holy Ghost. This trust has grown over many years and many experiences.

If our leaders (who are not flawless nor perfect) make mistakes occasionally, that is not the Holy Ghost. But the HG does strive with us despite our shortcomings, and our failures to listen correctly.

Wilford Woodruff famously said:

"The Lord will never permit me or any other man who stands as President of this Church to lead you astray. It is not in the programme. It is not in the mind of God. If I were to attempt that, the Lord would remove me out of my place, and so He will any other man who attempts to lead the children of men astray from the oracles of God and from their duty." (Sixty-first Semiannual General Conference of the Church, Monday, October 6, 1890, Salt Lake City, Utah. Reported in Deseret Evening News,October 11, 1890, p. 2. -- found in Official Declaration 1)

From this statement, I understand that while mistakes will be made from time to time, the entire program of the Lord will not be shattered thereby, and that He will ensure that all goes forward in accordance with His will.  

BTW, I think you best not allow Adam-God to become the subject of the thread or else it will devolve into spaghetti.

No offence.  I have heard this quote many times, and it is usually give in the context similar to what we are discussing here.  However, this is circular logic.  Leaders make mistakes and have given false doctrine.  They have not been removed from office. Yet here we have a leader in WW who, while a godly man, has given us false doctrine.  But we are suppose to believe him this time.  The fact this was given over the pullout in general conference does not reinforce its validity. I know you don't want to talk about it, but it happened:  BY preached Adam-God in general conference (October 8, 1854)

[sunstoned]

4 hours ago, Glenn101 said:

Did not see the Holy Ghost mentioned in any of your quotes. (The Journal of Discourses has been proven to be an unreliable source for quotes also. See a 2013 article "The Prophets Have Spoken But What Did They Say?" by Gerritt Dirkmaat and LaJean Purcell Carruth.)

Glenn

The fact that BY taught Adam-God is indeed a fact.  It is recorded in numerous places beyond the Journal of Discourses.   Besides I think the correlation committee thinks it is okay as the JofD was used extensively in the BY lesson manual a few years ago.    

[sunstoned]

2 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

The crucial question is whether we will handle false claims the way Orson Pratt did when he witnessed Brigham going off the rails.  Notice that Pratt did not apostatize, and that today it is his correct view which prevails.

This is a valid point.  It should also be noted the Orson did loose seniority in the twelve (yes, the argument can be made that it wasn't for this reason, but I think it was).  I take this as an object lesson that if you receive conformation that is at odds with the prevailing thoughts/teachings of the twelve, you probably best keep it to yourself.  With that said, Orson was not just a lay member, he was in a position of leadership, so I think he did the right thing by speaking up.

[Robert F. Smith]

4 minutes ago, sunstoned said:

This is a valid point.  It should also be noted the Orson did loose seniority in the twelve (yes, the argument can be made that it wasn't for this reason, but I think it was).  I take this as an object lesson that if you receive conformation that is at odds with the prevailing thoughts/teachings of the twelve, you probably best keep it to yourself.  With that said, Orson was not just a lay member, he was in a position of leadership, so I think he did the right thing by speaking up.

"you probably best keep it to yourself."  Not on your life !!

Everyone should speak up, not simply leaders (and, yes, Orson was punished by Brigham), regardless of the personal cost.  How do I know that, and how does it play out in real life?  Jesus showed us the ultimate cost of single-mined commitment to righteousness, and I know of skillful members who are not General Authoriites, who nonetheless have a powerful effect upon Church policy.  "Let the Holy Spirit guide."  "Do what is right, let the consequence follow."  "Choose the right."  It should be in our DNA.  As a colleague once said to me, "We keep each other honest."

[Duncan]

I think it was Richard Bushman who said that the Church won't be led astray but that doesn't mean it won't get into trouble and I see the Church getting into trouble over these ideas, it shouldn't but hey

[Robert F. Smith]

51 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Really not sure what you are saying here.  Orson vs Brigham involved Orson nearly being excommunicated, forced to recant publicly. And some would say led his removal from succession to the Presidency.  

Yes, but Orson was correct in opposing Adam-God theory, and he  was correct in opposing denial of ordination to Black men.  Orson was more concerned with others than with his own status, and for that powerful integrity his reward is great beyond the veil.  The rule is simple: "Do the right thing."

[Robert F. Smith]

40 minutes ago, carbon dioxide said:

I can trust the Holy Ghost.  What I not be able to trust is how I understand the Holy Ghost.  A person can misinterpret what the spirit reveals to them or may add their own two cents beyond what the spirit says and introduce error or misinformation to what the spirit really revealed to them.

That is the human condition, and it is undeniable that mistakes are made.  This life is a learning experience, and we must expect to make mistakes.  Arrogance will get us nowhere.  We are not expected to do better than we can.  We are simply to do our best.  God does not ask more than that of us.

[Avatar4321]

How do we trust the Holy Ghost? By having experiences with Him and choosing to trust Him.

 

When you experience the Holy Ghost regularly, you learn to Trust Him. Even when its not regularly.

 

I can't count the number of times the Spirit has given me peace. Or prompted me so subtly I might have missed it if I wasn't listening but blessed me when I did.

I'm currently waiting to hear back about a job that I feel confident I will get. I would never have found this opportunity if the Spirit hadn't lead me. And if by chance it doesnt work out I know the Lord will prompt me to find a better opportunity.

I know this by experience.

I can't say I understand what Brigham was teaching especially when he often taught the exact opposite. But I know the gospel is true because of the Spirit and the fruits He gives me. I know Brigham was a Prophet and I've been edified by his sermons.

I encourage you to seek out the Spirit. And act on His prompting in faith. You'll understand better when you do.

[Stargazer]

3 hours ago, sunstoned said:

No offence.  I have heard this quote many times, and it is usually give in the context similar to what we are discussing here.  However, this is circular logic.  Leaders make mistakes and have given false doctrine.  They have not been removed from office. Yet here we have a leader in WW who, while a godly man, has given us false doctrine.  But we are suppose to believe him this time.  The fact this was given over the pullout in general conference does not reinforce its validity. I know you don't want to talk about it, but it happened:  BY preached Adam-God in general conference (October 8, 1854)

WW gave us false doctrine?  Not sure about that.

Interestingly enough, I must confess that I really never read very much about the Adam-God doctrine. I just assumed that it was something Brigham said that nobody really "got", and there we were.  And so, I decided to actually read up on it today, and oddly enough I didn't find it as hard to get into as I had thought I would, and I'm not so convinced it's false doctrine. Not something I'd teach, but it's something worth considering.  It doesn't affect my salvation, either way, so it's all good.

[Glenn101]

6 hours ago, sunstoned said:

The fact that BY taught Adam-God is indeed a fact.  It is recorded in numerous places beyond the Journal of Discourses.   Besides I think the correlation committee thinks it is okay as the JofD was used extensively in the BY lesson manual a few years ago.    

I do not disagree that Brigham Young taught some type of Adam-God theory. I was just noting that the OP was about trusting the Holy Ghost or not, and noting that Bill was not addressing that. As to By.Y.'s JOD being used extensively in developing the P.H./R.S. manual you probably have also noted that the teachings were selected carefully. I do recall there was quite a few posters who were upset that none of B.Y.'s more esoteric ideas or even teachings about polygamy found its way into the manual. BTW, have you read the article I referenced?

Glenn

[Hamba Tuhan]

13 hours ago, DBMormon said:

How can we ever trust our ability to discern what is really the Holy Ghost and what are false theories?

Speaking metaphorically, if you think that the Holy Ghost has told you that you'll find an ancient record buried under a certain rock on the side of certain hill, you have to go look under the rock before you'll truly know if it was the Spirit or not. Repeat that experience a few thousand times, and your ability to distinguish the voice that is right from all the others will grow sharper and sharper.

Edited October 31, 2017 by Hamba Tuhan