How can one trust the Holy Ghost

[DBMormon]

Recognizing that Prophets, Seers, and Revelators have taught false Doctrine in the Past
Brigham for example taught that his knowing that Heavenly Father was Michael/Adam came via Revelation.  He also taught that the many of the lay members knew by revelation that he spoke the truth.  

Another example is that many members "knew" that the Church doctrines that those of color were less valiant or were cursed was true and Church leaders such as George Albert Smith taught that such was from God and was in deed Doctrine.

So the question.  If A Prophet can be deceived and think something is from revelation and/or Holy Ghost and the members of his time also feel such is true by the power of the Holy Ghost only to have later leaders disavow such teachings as false theories based on racism and in the Adam/God instance Elder McConkie taught that in terms of Brigham having taught that false Doctrine
 

Quote

What he did is not a pattern for any of us. If we choose to believe and teach the false portions of his doctrines, we are making an election that will damn us.

Then......  How can we ever trust our ability to discern what is really the Holy Ghost and what are false theories?  If Prophets struggle to discern and members are on record struggling to discern those prophets who struggled to discern, then it seems ineffective for any of us individually or collectively to have any certainty that what the spirit seems to be telling us is true, is in all actuality the Holy Ghost testifying of what is true, and not just our own individual delusions or collective delusions?

Edited October 30, 2017 by DBMormon

[The Nehor]

16 minutes ago, DBMormon said:

Recognizing that Prophets, Seers, and Revelators have taught false Doctrine in the Past
Brigham for example taught that his knowing that Heavenly Father was Michael/Adam came via Revelation.  He also taught that the many of the lay members knew by revelation that he spoke the truth.  

Another example is that many members "knew" that the Church doctrines that those of color were less valiant or were cursed was true and Church leaders such as George Albert Smith taught that such was from God and was in deed Doctrine.

So the question.  If A Prophet can be deceived and think something is from revelation and/or Holy Ghost and the members of his time also feel such is true by the power of the Holy Ghost only to have later leaders disavow such teachings as false theories based on racism and in the Adam/God instance Elder McConkie taught that in terms of Brigham having taught that false Doctrine
 

Then......  How can we ever trust our ability to discern what is really the Holy Ghost and what are false theories?  If Prophets struggle to discern and members are on record struggling to discern those prophets who struggled to discern, then it seems ineffective for any of us individually or collectively to have any certainty that what the spirit seems to be telling us is true, is in all actuality the Holy Ghost testifying of what is true, and not just our own individual delusions or collective delusions?

You can’t.

I can.

Sorry.

[juliann]

I'm going with individual delusion. I'm an introvert. 

[Stargazer]

I do trust the Holy Ghost. This trust has grown over many years and many experiences.

If our leaders (who are not flawless nor perfect) make mistakes occasionally, that is not the Holy Ghost. But the HG does strive with us despite our shortcomings, and our failures to listen correctly.

Wilford Woodruff famously said:

"The Lord will never permit me or any other man who stands as President of this Church to lead you astray. It is not in the programme. It is not in the mind of God. If I were to attempt that, the Lord would remove me out of my place, and so He will any other man who attempts to lead the children of men astray from the oracles of God and from their duty." (Sixty-first Semiannual General Conference of the Church, Monday, October 6, 1890, Salt Lake City, Utah. Reported in Deseret Evening News,October 11, 1890, p. 2. -- found in Official Declaration 1)

From this statement, I understand that while mistakes will be made from time to time, the entire program of the Lord will not be shattered thereby, and that He will ensure that all goes forward in accordance with His will.  

BTW, I think you best not allow Adam-God to become the subject of the thread or else it will devolve into spaghetti.

[JLHPROF]

53 minutes ago, DBMormon said:

Brigham for example taught that his knowing that Heavenly Father was Michael/Adam came via Revelation.  He also taught that the many of the lay members knew by revelation that he spoke the truth.

He did.

16 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

BTW, I think you best not allow Adam-God to become the subject of the thread or else it will devolve into spaghetti.

[Duncan]

Where is there a reference that he knew that members knew by revelation that what he said was true? and my second question is how could be possibly know that?

[Glenn101]

41 minutes ago, juliann said:

I'm going with individual delusion. I'm an introvert. 

In your case wouldn't that be internal delusion??? 

[strappinglad]

I am told that many times revelation comes from questions that are presented to the Lord. If so, I wonder what questions Brigham asked when he was given the revelations in the OP and what prompted BY to even ask about Adam/God. I can see the priesthood question because of the prevailing mindset , but the other is so far off the mainstream that, to quote the Princess Bride, it is inconceivable .

[strappinglad]

10 minutes ago, Duncan said:

Where is there a reference that he knew that members knew by revelation that what he said was true? and my second question is how could be possibly know that?

He knew because they told him... or by revelation.

[Glenn101]

28 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

BTW, I think you best not allow Adam-God to become the subject of the thread or else it will devolve into spaghetti.

BTW, I agree with you. We been there two many times, with no sauce at that.

However as to the topic at hand, if we cannot trust the Holy Ghost, according to Paul, we cannot know that Jesus is the Christ.

1 Corinthians 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

I trust my experiences with the Holy Ghost. I don't always trust what I read that which some one else has (supposedly) written.

Glenn

[DBMormon]

12 minutes ago, Duncan said:

Where is there a reference that he knew that members knew by revelation that what he said was true? and my second question is how could be possibly know that?

Quote

 

"Some have grumbled because I believe our God to be so near to us as Father Adam. There are many who know that doctrine to be true."

- Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, v. 5, p. 331

 

 

Quote

 

"When Brigham Young proclaimed to the nations that Adam was our Father and God, and Eve, his partner, the Mother of a world-both in a mortal and celestial sense-he made the most important revelation ever oracled to the race since the days of Adam himself.
This grand patriarchal revelation is the very key-stone of the 'New Creation' of the heavens and the earth. It gives new meaning to the whole system of theology-"

- Eliza R. Snow, Women of Mormondom, p. 196

 

 

Quote

 

"I am not disposed to question the discrepancies on the question of doctrine; if we live faithful all will become clear to us. We cannot become united only as we get united in understanding. When I first heard the doctrine of Adam being our Father and God, I was favorably impressed – enjoyed, and hailed it as a new revelation. It appeared reasonable to me, as the Father of our spirits that he should introduce us here. And what we do not see is only evidence that we have not the light necessary."

- Elder George G. Bywater, "Minutes of the School of Prophets," pp. 37-42, June 8, 1868

 

 

Quote

"How much unbelief exists in the minds of the Latter-day Saints in regard to one particular doctrine which I revealed to them, and which God revleaed to me – namely that Adam is our father and God -  Prophet Brigham Young, Deseret News, v. 22, no. 308, June 8, 1873

 

Quote

 

"Brother Cannon said there was a learned Doctor that wanted to be baptized.... He [the doctor] is satisfied that the doctrine of the plurality of God and that Adam is our Father is a true doctrine revealed from God to Joseph and Brigham. For this same doctrine is taught in some of the old Jewish records which have never been in print and I know Joseph Smtih nor Brigham Young have had access to, and the Lord has revealed this doctrine unto them or they could not have taught it. President Young said if all that God had revealed was in fine print it would more than fill this room but very little is written or printed which the Lord has revealed."

- Prophet Wilford Woodruff, Journal of Wilford Woodruff, Sept. 4, 1860

 

 

Quote

"Relative to the principles recently revealed, we have not the least difficulty. If Adam's being our Father cannot be proved by the Bible, it is all right."- Elder Joseph Hall, Millennial Star, June 1854, v. 16, p. 483

[The Nehor]

I dissent from the idea that because something is imperfect it should be ignored. My conscience has suggested I do things that seemed like the right thing to do but caused harm. Should I now disdain it as imperfect and ignore it forever.

The solution to imperfect revelation is more revelation. You grow spiritually and your capacity to receive and act on revelation expands. It will never become perfect in this life but it is, bluntly, better than the absence of revelation.

[Stargazer]

32 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

He did.

That wasn't the spaghetti I had in mind, but it will do! 

(I'm a computer programmer, and "spaghetti code" is the worst kind of code -- thus my referencing it as an example of a tangled mess).

[Glenn101]

3 minutes ago, DBMormon said:

Many quotes about Adam-God

Did not see the Holy Ghost mentioned in any of your quotes. (The Journal of Discourses has been proven to be an unreliable source for quotes also. See a 2013 article "The Prophets Have Spoken But What Did They Say?" by Gerritt Dirkmaat and LaJean Purcell Carruth.)

Glenn

[CV75]

1 hour ago, DBMormon said:

Then......  How can we ever trust our ability to discern what is really the Holy Ghost and what are false theories?  If Prophets struggle to discern and members are on record struggling to discern those prophets who struggled to discern, then it seems ineffective for any of us individually or collectively to have any certainty that what the spirit seems to be telling us is true, is in all actuality the Holy Ghost testifying of what is true, and not just our own individual delusions or collective delusions?

Whatever a person trusts becomes, in a practical sense, the Holy Ghost to him not matter what he calls it. Do you know people who trust nothing?

Edited October 31, 2017 by CV75

[Stargazer]

3 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I dissent from the idea that because something is imperfect it should be ignored. My conscience has suggested I do things that seemed like the right thing to do but caused harm. Should I now disdain it as imperfect and ignore it forever.

The solution to imperfect revelation is more revelation. You grow spiritually and your capacity to receive and act on revelation expands. It will never become perfect in this life but it is, bluntly, better than the absence of revelation.

I agree with your second line completely.

As for the first, I once married a woman I thought I had divine confirmation to marry.  It turned out to be the worst four years of my life.  But in this case, it was what I was supposed to do.  Much later I recognized it as the Lord telling me that now that I had made my bed, I needed to sleep in it. 

[Tacenda]

I don't really believe in the holy ghost of Mormonism now. It use to really frustrate me when I felt he/she left me and thinking I wasn't living righteous enough, actually I've never felt it really, all in my head. For several years now, I believe it was only more Catholics and LDS that believe in the Holy Ghost. Others say holy spirit, and believe it's what was left for us after His death for us to know his spirit lives on inside of us. This is better than I can ask for. I do believe in guardian angels, so I guess that can be holy ghosts. 

[Jeanne]

9 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I don't really believe in the holy ghost of Mormonism now. It use to really frustrate me when I felt he/she left me and thinking I wasn't living righteous enough, actually I've never felt it really, all in my head. For several years now, I believe it was only more Catholics and LDS that believe in the Holy Ghost. Others say holy spirit, and believe it's what was left for us after His death for us to know his spirit lives on inside of us. This is better than I can ask for. I do believe in guardian angels, so I guess that can be holy ghosts. 

 I am already at that point.  I have often wondered why we didn't learn more about this said being..afterall, being part of the Godhead..why we did not have a better understanding.  My big question today is what would be the difference between the Holy Ghost and Holy Spirit...the promptings would be the same wouldn't they?  I have a much better trust in guardian angels and find it more comforting that God has someone (or others) watching over me and my family. 

Edited October 31, 2017 by Jeanne

[SamuelTheLamanite]

29 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

The solution to imperfect revelation is more revelation. You grow spiritually and your capacity to receive and act on revelation expands. It will never become perfect in this life but it is, bluntly, better than the absence of revelation.

For sure Nehor, but there are too many skeptics on the board, including you  

http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/69474-virgin-mary-statue/?page=2

http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/69535-facebook-conversation/?page=5 

2 hours ago, DBMormon said:

individual delusions or collective delusions?

Well, apparently you are not the only skeptic, see the threads above. 

[hope_for_things]

2 hours ago, DBMormon said:

Then......  How can we ever trust our ability to discern what is really the Holy Ghost and what are false theories?  If Prophets struggle to discern and members are on record struggling to discern those prophets who struggled to discern, then it seems ineffective for any of us individually or collectively to have any certainty that what the spirit seems to be telling us is true, is in all actuality the Holy Ghost testifying of what is true, and not just our own individual delusions or collective delusions?

It should give us a great deal of humility to recognize that we can be wrong with the way we discern impressions.  We should never be so prideful to think that our impressions are absolutely right, nor should we outsource our morality to an authority figure, recognizing that we individuals are accountable for our beliefs and actions.

 We should also remember that all humans are subject to the same flaws of thinking and not expect that church or other leaders have any special powers that would enable them to be more accurate than the next person.  

[Brother Bear]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

You can’t.

I can.

Sorry.

[readstoomuch]

The opposite end of the spectrum would be that I can`t trust science because it let me down or was at some (many) points wrong.  I came across a Journal of the American Medical Association in 1950 and it said my doctor prefers Winston Lights, so I smoked.  Nazi scientists wrote about Eugenics.  We must select for the very best and exclude (exterminate) all those genetically inferior.  Its obvious that Nazi`s are bad and that isn`t really science.  Then you read headlines about Down`s syndrome almost being eradicated.  Its simple, an early prenatal test is done from umbilical chord blood or a placenta sample.  If it shows Down`s syndrome or other defects, then you get an abortion.  Society is saved the cost and burden of that child throughout their lifespan. That`s Eugenics, maybe not by a machine gun or gas chamber, but still a similar result.  There are many reports of a bus picking up handicapped children for school in Germany under Hitler and one day they just never came home.  Another example, this drug was good for me and now it is bad.  Am I to believe it was good or bad for me?  Maybe its both.  

Science is a good tool, one that I need, but it doesn`t have all of the answers or always get things right. The Holy Spirit, scriptures and prophets are also a tool that I should take advantage of.  In fact, all the better if I use all of the tools that are given to me.  Science makes a model, works off of that theory and then new information is received.  If the information can be reproduced or fit into a model that has proof also, then I can teach it as a potential model.  Until the model is proven wrong in some way and almost always it is, at least in some way.  That process happens within religion also.  Hopefully, the process leads to more correct facts over time.  

[Duncan]

32 minutes ago, DBMormon said:

 

 

 

 

 

Your first quotation they know but not necessarily by revelation

Your second quotation is from Edward Tullidge, not Eliza Snow and he ran with some odd company

Your third quotation was hailed as revelation but we know that doesn't mean it was a revelation

Your fourth quotation doesn't exist. Actually look up the Deseret News for June and July of 1873, Pres. Young never said that, so where this quotation originates from I have no idea. I am willing to be corrected if the quotation can actually be found 

Your fifth quotation is from Pres. Woodruff, it's hard to parse what he is saying vs. what he is saying that Pres. Cannon is saying the Dr. is saying-Apparently he said that he was to do away with medicine as God can heal people with the practice of medicine. I am not sure who is speaking for whom in that quotation and who believes what

Your sixth quotation hinges on the word "if" and it is from July, 1854 not June.........

Let's say for the sake of argument Brigham Young did believe that it was revealed, not established by the quotations provided, Elder McConkie said this

"Brigham Young said a few things where he contradicted Brigham Young. All you have to do is choose the statements of Brigham Young that are in conformity with the revelations. And if Brigham Young were here to edit himself he would do some book burning on these quotations that everybody likes to quote. Brigham Young happens to be one of the greatest men that ever lived and he ranks along with Joseph Smith; but even Brigham Young (and I) make a mistake or two in doctrine once in a while. Brigham Young, because he was the President of the Church, gets quoted." (“Marriage & Exaltation,” Lecture transcript, University of Utah Institute, 25 March 1968.)

for further reading read what Elder McConkie wrote to Eugene England

[SamuelTheLamanite]

18 minutes ago, readstoomuch said:

The opposite end of the spectrum would be that I can`t trust science because it let me down or was at some (many) points wrong. 

Bill is asking "How can one trust the Holy Ghost?". I don't think saying "Science ....  doesn`t have all of the answers or always get things right" answers his question. 

If Bill trust science he would probably give us many reasons, but science is not the topic. 

Edited October 31, 2017 by SamuelTheLamanite

[Robert F. Smith]

How can one trust the Holy Ghost?

How much wood would a woodchuck chuck, if a woodchuck could chuck wood?