Remnant/Snuffer leading entire stakes towards apostasy?

[Calm]

1 hour ago, stemelbow said:

I think that it's interesting of people leaving the Snuffer group to form their own movements.  Sounds like their dispersion might already be happening to some extent.

They can look to what happened with the Protestants to see the fallout for denying the authority of the mother Church.

Snuffer has, from what I have seen, given no reason for them to be required to accept his version.

[RevTestament]

19 hours ago, rockpond said:

Doug Fabrizio interviewed Lindsey Hansen Park on his RadioWest show regarding Denver Snuffer and the Remnant movement.  It's a very interesting interview if you are looking to learn more about that topic.  I'm sure there are multiple ways to listen to it but the one I use is to download the podcast via iTunes.  But, to my question...

At one point in the interview, Fabrizio asks Park if she believes that the church leadership sees the Remnant movement as a threat.  Park responded that she has been forwarded "leaked" correspondence between stake presidents and area authorities revealing groups of membership in the Wasatch Front area and, in some cases, even entire stakes that are moving toward apostasy as a result of their belief in the Remnant or Snuffer movement.

That's quite a claim.  Personally, I only know a few people who have left the church for that reason but among them in a direct descendant of Bruce R. McConkie -- which was surprising to me.  Obviously Snuffer earned a spot on the infamous "bubble chart" of church threats that was leaked but so did a number of other people/issues.

I'm wondering if those of you who do live in the Mormon corridor have seen any other evidence of Park's claim.

 

19 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Not I.

But then I'm constantly amazed at how immune my ward seems to be from the weird stuff I read about on this message board and elsewhere: no contentious Sunday School or priesthood meeting classes, no battles over politics, no brazen contradiction or defiance of statements from the Brethren, nobody denying Book of Mormon historicity or staking out unauthoritative claims about its geography, no unauthorized revision of the three-hour Sabbath day meeting block, no wacky folk getting up during fast-and-testimony meeting, no men coming to church dressed in women's clothes, no male couples holding hands during meetings, no women wearing pants to church as an ideological statement, no 12-year-old girls trying to hijack meetings with contra-doctrinal propaganda.

I have to say i have not seen any of the weird stuff in my area. Definitely nothing like whole stakes going apostate, so I can echo Scott Lloyd in that regard. However, I am in a conservative, bedrock area of the Church in happy valley. I have read and seen stuff somewhat like Rockpond is talking about in the Salt Lake Valley. Groups which have left for polygamy mostly, but recently the gay family issue has become big. Both times I have attended conference in the last year or so there has been an objector - my guess is this person/s are unhappy about the church's position/s on gay families or gay marriage, and some may apostatize over that. The gay community seems particularly strong in SL valley. I admit I am not patched into the Church authoritative structure, so my comments are limited to personal observations and news, so I don't know how much of a movement this is, but it seems to have grown over the last decade or so.Denver Snuffer may appeal to such groups. The women priesthood movement was another such small group. However, these groups don't seem to be geographically centered by stakes or anything like that. Nevertheless, they are newer social groups which are probably willing to explore apostate groups such as Snuffer's. They generally seem to be composed of individuals who were born into the Church, and are often multi-generational, rather than individuals from outlying areas who are converts who fought for their testimonies and conversion to the Church. I know there are some generalities here which will probably raise objections from some, but stuff like this normally deals with generalities.

[Scott Lloyd]

7 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

 

I have to say i have not seen any of the weird stuff in my area. Definitely nothing like whole stakes going apostate, so I can echo Scott Lloyd in that regard. However, I am in a conservative, bedrock area of the Church in happy valley. I have read and seen stuff somewhat like Rockpond is talking about in the Salt Lake Valley. Groups which have left for polygamy mostly, but recently the gay family issue has become big. Both times I have attended conference in the last year or so there has been an objector - my guess is this person/s are unhappy about the church's position/s on gay families or gay marriage, and some may apostatize over that. The gay community seems particularly strong in SL valley. I admit I am not patched into the Church authoritative structure, so my comments are limited to personal observations and news, so I don't know how much of a movement this is, but it seems to have grown over the last decade or so.Denver Snuffer may appeal to such groups. The women priesthood movement was another such small group. However, these groups don't seem to be geographically centered by stakes or anything like that. Nevertheless, they are newer social groups which are probably willing to explore apostate groups such as Snuffer's. They generally seem to be composed of individuals who were born into the Church, and are often multi-generational, rather than individuals from outlying areas who are converts who fought for their testimonies and conversion to the Church. I know there are some generalities here which will probably raise objections from some, but stuff like this normally deals with generalities.

I'm smack in the middle of suburbia in the southern end of the Salt Lake Valley. As I said, no discernible weirdness yet.

Maybe if I lived closer to downtown SLC.

 

[why me]

It seems that people may be susceptible to fake news. And this seems like fake news. I have this feeling that church members have been suffering from fake news quite often especially from the critics. I have been on these boards for years and I have come across fake news often. I don't know how many times I have read about thousands of members leaving or the fall of the lds church is at hand. Also, much fake news about history when it comes to critic interpretation. All have been discussed on this board. Sure some members are falling away from the endless assault on the lds metanarrative. All designed to get members to lose faith. It is one of the problems of the west today that christianity in general has been attacked over and over again over its own truth claim about Jesus that now sees a loss of faith throughout Europe etc, leading to a worship of the consumer society or in hedonism. We should try not to be influenced by fake news when it comes to mormonism and to christianity in general.

[rockpond]

6 minutes ago, why me said:

It seems that people may be susceptible to fake news. And this seems like fake news. I have this feeling that church members have been suffering from fake news quite often especially from the critics. I have been on these boards for years and I have come across fake news often. I don't know how many times I have read about thousands of members leaving or the fall of the lds church is at hand. Also, much fake news about history when it comes to critic interpretation. All have been discussed on this board. Sure some members are falling away from the endless assault on the lds metanarrative. All designed to get members to lose faith. It is one of the problems of the west today that christianity in general has been attacked over and over again over its own truth claim about Jesus that now sees a loss of faith throughout Europe etc, leading to a worship of the consumer society or in hedonism. We should try not to be influenced by fake news when it comes to mormonism and to christianity in general.

Let's please stay on topic.  This has the potential to completely derail the thread. 

If you have a direct application to the RadioWest interview or the Snuffer/Remnant movement -- please edit your post to so indicate. Thank you!

[Jude2]

could I ask a kind of a dumb question who are they? 

[rpn]

27 minutes ago, Jude2 said:

could I ask a kind of a dumb question who are they? 

I'm not sure anyone knows who "they" are.   The most one could say is that they are dissaffected from the LDS church and they have read Denver Snuffer's books?   It is actually a movement to the right, not to a more liberal theology.  Snuffer believes that the corporate church and its leaders have been cut off from God.    He preaches all about returning to Jesus Christ.   It appears that the movement is largely what consensus develops on any specific topic.  And there are no appointed or voted leaders, though people expect Snuffer to be elected to something at the September conference (which they will be livestreaming apparently).

Edited August 12, 2017 by rpn

[rockpond]

31 minutes ago, Jude2 said:

could I ask a kind of a dumb question who are they? 

That's not a dumb question.  But, it is tough to answer in a single post.  I would recommend listening to the RadioWest program that I cited in the OP.  It's a good primer.  

Short answer, in my words, which I'm sure some will feel are inaccurate (and likely are):  the remnant movement is a loosely organized splinter group that began from the teachings and the claimed divine experiences of Denver Snuffer.  The mainstream LDS Church considers them apostates.  The remnant movement believes that the mainstream LDS Church is "out of order" and no longer divinely authorized.  The movement would be considered more of a "conservative" group as they feel that they are returning to the principles of the restoration (pre-polygamy). 

Edited August 12, 2017 by rockpond

[rockpond]

3 minutes ago, rpn said:

I'm not sure anyone knows who "they" are.   The most one could say is that they are dissaffected from the LDS church and they have read Denver Snuffer's books?   It is actually a movement to the right, not to a more liberal theology.  Snuffer believes that the corporate church and its leaders have been cut off from God.    He preaches all about returning to Jesus Christ.   It appears that the movement is largely what consensus develops on any specific topic.  And there are no appointed or voted leaders, though people expect Snuffer to be elected to something at the September conference (which they will be livestreaming apparently).

Also a good answer. 

[ttribe]

What's the over/under on how long before Snuffer reintroduces polygamy?

[Kenngo1969]

12 minutes ago, ttribe said:

What's the over/under on how long before Snuffer reintroduces polygamy?

I dunno,  but it's like I always say, ya hafta monog before ya kin polyg!  

[Duncan]

14 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said:

I dunno,  but it's like I always say, ya hafta monog before ya kin polyg!  

clean out your messages and i'll send the gun story and states evidence and my parents story

[The Nehor]

2 hours ago, why me said:

It seems that people may be susceptible to fake news. And this seems like fake news. I have this feeling that church members have been suffering from fake news quite often especially from the critics. I have been on these boards for years and I have come across fake news often. I don't know how many times I have read about thousands of members leaving or the fall of the lds church is at hand. Also, much fake news about history when it comes to critic interpretation. All have been discussed on this board. Sure some members are falling away from the endless assault on the lds metanarrative. All designed to get members to lose faith. It is one of the problems of the west today that christianity in general has been attacked over and over again over its own truth claim about Jesus that now sees a loss of faith throughout Europe etc, leading to a worship of the consumer society or in hedonism. We should try not to be influenced by fake news when it comes to mormonism and to christianity in general.

Please do not use the term 'fake news'. It has connotations I hope you did not want to bring into the thread.

[rockpond]

29 minutes ago, ttribe said:

What's the over/under on how long before Snuffer reintroduces polygamy?

The commonly held belief among the Remnant group is that Joseph Smith did not practice plural marriage and that Brigham Young introduced the practice (and evidence was later manufactured to make it seems as if JS practiced polygamy). 

My understanding is that they are removing Section 132 from their version of the D&C as they don't accept that it was a revelation to JS. 

So... while they don't reject polygamists from their fellowship, I don't see them reintroducing polygamy.

[why me]

3 hours ago, rockpond said:

Let's please stay on topic.  This has the potential to completely derail the thread. 

If you have a direct application to the RadioWest interview or the Snuffer/Remnant movement -- please edit your post to so indicate. Thank you!

We were talking about emails that claimed entire stakesor wards were heading toward apostacy. No proof was given. What else is it but fake news? She should release the emails.

[why me]

46 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Please do not use the term 'fake news'. It has connotations I hope you did not want to bring into the thread.

I would like to see the emails. And the proof of what is being claimed. I see no emails or proof. I have no idea if what she stated is true or not. And yet, people are discussing it as if it were true. I think that we need to be careful about such statements as in the OP unless we have proof that it is based in reality.

[The Nehor]

Just now, why me said:

I would like to see the emails. And the proof of what is being claimed. I see no emails or proof. I have no idea if what she stated is true or not. And yet, people are discussing it as if it were true. I think that we need to be careful about such statements as in the OP unless we have proof that it is based in reality.

I agree that this is dubious but the term "fake news" has political implications and is, in my opinion and the opinion of many others, dangerous in the way it is used.

[Calm]

5 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I'm smack in the middle of suburbia in the southern end of the Salt Lake Valley. As I said, no discernible weirdness yet.

Maybe if I lived closer to downtown SLC.

 

My relatives are spread across Utah Valley up into SL county, no one has heard of them.

[rockpond]

8 minutes ago, why me said:

I would like to see the emails. And the proof of what is being claimed. I see no emails or proof. I have no idea if what she stated is true or not. And yet, people are discussing it as if it were true. I think that we need to be careful about such statements as in the OP unless we have proof that it is based in reality.

I don't recall anyone here assuming that the claim is true.  Rather, most seem to be approaching Park's claim with skepticism. 

I doubt she has any intent of releasing the emails.

[rpn]

1 hour ago, ttribe said:

What's the over/under on how long before Snuffer reintroduces polygamy?

Unlikely, they're stripping D&c132 from their new scriptures.

[juliann]

On 8/11/2017 at 1:31 PM, rockpond said:

Doug Fabrizio interviewed Lindsey Hansen Park on his RadioWest show regarding Denver Snuffer and the Remnant movement.  It's a very interesting interview if you are looking to learn more about that topic.  I'm sure there are multiple ways to listen to it but the one I use is to download the podcast via iTunes.  But, to my question...

At one point in the interview, Fabrizio asks Park if she believes that the church leadership sees the Remnant movement as a threat.  Park responded that she has been forwarded "leaked" correspondence between stake presidents and area authorities revealing groups of membership in the Wasatch Front area and, in some cases, even entire stakes that are moving toward apostasy as a result of their belief in the Remnant or Snuffer movement.

That's quite a claim.  Personally, I only know a few people who have left the church for that reason but among them in a direct descendant of Bruce R. McConkie -- which was surprising to me.  Obviously Snuffer earned a spot on the infamous "bubble chart" of church threats that was leaked but so did a number of other people/issues.

I'm wondering if those of you who do live in the Mormon corridor have seen any other evidence of Park's claim.

I listened to a podcast of hers about Sunstone. I liked her Year of Polygamy stuff, although she cherry picked the worst stuff a fair amount, but everything else I have heard from her veers into the FLDS type stuff no matter what the topic. And I have yet to see or hear of any particular credentials other than she is interested in it and spends time visiting them. She said something about some movement being bigger than she imagined.....because she got phone calls. I've decided to put her on pause until she presents some data. 

[provoman]

On 8/11/2017 at 2:31 PM, rockpond said:

Doug Fabrizio interviewed Lindsey Hansen Park on his RadioWest show regarding Denver Snuffer and the Remnant movement.  It's a very interesting interview if you are looking to learn more about that topic.  I'm sure there are multiple ways to listen to it but the one I use is to download the podcast via iTunes.  But, to my question...

At one point in the interview, Fabrizio asks Park if she believes that the church leadership sees the Remnant movement as a threat.  Park responded that she has been forwarded "leaked" correspondence between stake presidents and area authorities revealing groups of membership in the Wasatch Front area and, in some cases, even entire stakes that are moving toward apostasy as a result of their belief in the Remnant or Snuffer movement.

That's quite a claim.  Personally, I only know a few people who have left the church for that reason but among them in a direct descendant of Bruce R. McConkie -- which was surprising to me.  Obviously Snuffer earned a spot on the infamous "bubble chart" of church threats that was leaked but so did a number of other people/issues.

I'm wondering if those of you who do live in the Mormon corridor have seen any other evidence of Park's claim.

Nope, haven't seen any evidence of Park's claim. Never heard of Park until reading this post; and the claim " entire stakes that are moving toward apostasy as a result of their belief in the Remnant or Snuffer movement" is a ridiculous statement.

[readstoomuch]

The Remnant or Snuffers or whatever you call them are editing section 132.  I don`t think it is being entirely deleted.  Just the parts taken out that they don`t like.  Namely any implication that Joseph Smith practiced polygamy.  

Let me talk about the Snufferite in my ward.  He has always been the most obnoxious, hard to get along with person in my ward.  Testimony meeting is interesting.  He says God still want him to go to Church.  That seems to be so that he can try to recruit and indoctrinate people about his beliefs.  I had to have some interactions with him.  Long story, but he talks about us Mormons not praising God enough or keeping the commandments well enough.  We are talking about keeping the commandments to the point of perfectionism.  He doesn`t agree on my opinion about history, because Denver is thorough and understands it better than any one.  Our leaders are fallen and wandering without any insight from God.  I have heard him say that he is going to give up every thing he owns to see the Savior.  Long fasts and hours of praying daily with his wife.  Looking for the appearance of Jesus and the Holy Spirit of Promise to confirm their marriage sealing.  I wish I didn`t have to say the things I have, but they are true.  One month he gave his testimony, so the next month a member of the stake presidency was there.  His testimony was much simpler with the counselor there.  I know these people want to draw closer to God and think we don`t do enough in our Church to do that.  Interestingly, he and his wife aren`t the people out there trying to do service.  He really complained when I asked him to take the missionaries to the food bank.  It was something I was doing one morning a week.  It was a great experience.  We have taught people just from our service at the food bank.  Nothing wrong with praising God or praying for hours.  Isn`t the best way to come to Christ by looking for his face in our fellow man and serving them?

[Bobbieaware]

30 minutes ago, provoman said:

Nope, haven't seen any evidence of Park's claim. Never heard of Park until reading this post; and the claim " entire stakes that are moving toward apostasy as a result of their belief in the Remnant or Snuffer movement" is a ridiculous statement.

The claim that whole stakes are moving in the Snufferite direction is an example of the kind of wishful thinking that eminates from the minds of those who can't wait to see the Church fail. If these people can't find any evidence to support their desired narrative, they'll make things up out of whole cloth or blow-up out of all proportion an isolated statement made by some disaffected member.

Edited August 13, 2017 by Bobbieaware

[sunstoned]

10 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Yeah, we get more.

The Brethren will occasionally get topical on the current events of the day. I fear some don't like it much when they do.

My sig line has three or four examples of that (well, one of the statements is actually from one of the sisters).

At a CES satellite broadcast last year, President Russell M. Nelson gave us a glimpse into the revelatory process by which the Presidency and the Twelve arrived at the November 2015 handbook revision. That set off an uproar the likes of which we had not seen since, well, the news got out about the November 2015 handbook revision.

By the way, urging the Latter-day Saints to stay in the Old Ship Zion and hang on is currently topical.

 

Was it the first handbook revision, or the second revision that was in response to the public backlash that was the revelation?  I don't think Nelson was clear on this.