Remnant/Snuffer leading entire stakes towards apostasy?

[rockpond]

2 hours ago, clarkgoble said:

I'm tremendously skeptical. I bet most people don't even know of Snuffer is. I'll admit I had no idea who Park was.

For clarity, Lindsay Hansen Park is not associated with Snuffer or the remnant movement.  She was being interviewed because she has been researching Mormon splinter groups. 

[Scott Lloyd]

Just now, rockpond said:

For clarity, Lindsay Hansen Park is not associated with Snuffer or the remnant movement.  She was being interviewed because she has been researching Mormon splinter groups. 

She is associated with Sunstone in some way, isn't she?

[Calm]

19 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I've seen that one as well, and it's a good one.

 

Julie Rowe, who was the next 'new thing' and who got censored by the Church (her book was labeled "spurious materials" and banned from seminary/institute), apparently hasn't done anything since November.  Her last book, over a year old, is reported to just be a rehash of her first two books.  

She set up a "relief fund" and started soliciting money, homes, and other property from people.  Apparently in one interview someone shared she did get a salary from the Fund (not confirmed).  Nothing was filed yet for 2016 apparently, income was $5000 for 2015 (it was official in October of that year iirc.

Edited August 12, 2017 by Calm

[rockpond]

1 hour ago, stemelbow said:

I'll still have to listen, I guess, but I'm doubting this claim by Sister Park, or just as likely she's getting fed garbage for funsies.  Correspondence between multiple Stake Presidents to Area authorities talking about many people in many stakes, and in some cases whole stakes moving towards apostasy because they believe in the remnant/snuffer movement?  IF she has something leaked, I can at least guarantee, that if she has something leaked from my SP to an area Authority it is fake.  I wouldn't doubt that there are plenty of people interested, intrigued, or sympathetic.  Whose leaking the SP or the area Presidency?  Why to her? 

Well at least this has me interested enough to ask and might get me to listen to this Fabrizio interview. 

I would encourage you to listen to the interview.  Download it and listen during a drive or a workout or something.  Fabrizio is a great interviewer and Park is knowledgeable on the subject and has gone directly to Snuffer with questions.  

[flameburns623]

5 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

She is associated with Sunstone in some way, isn't she?

She's an editor. (THE editor?? Dunno how many they have). Highly placed I gather. However large Sunstone is. 

[sunstoned]

5 hours ago, ksfisher said:

That's why I'm wondering if information is not somehow being garbled.  An entire stake?  I could see a stake president being concerned about individuals in several wards, but not an entire stake apostatizing. 

Agreed.  A stake is comprised of a lot of people.  Most of which are inactive. I don't see an entire stake doing anything in unison.  You can't get an entire stake to go to the Temple once a month let a lone leave the religion of their youth for an upstart splinter group.

[sunstoned]

5 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I have listened to some of his stuff. Not impressed.

He preaches the religion of Joseph Smith.  Something some people claimed to have not heard for many, many years.  He speaks of power from God, what is right and what is wrong.  Not corporate decisions or multi million dollar real estate deals made in board rooms behind closed doors.

[rockpond]

53 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

She is associated with Sunstone in some way, isn't she?

She's the Director of Sunstone.  

[bluebell]

I'm late to the party and haven't read the whole thread, but here in Layton I haven't heard anything about Snuffer.  A couple of years ago the stake next to mine had some real problems with Julie Rowe but the stake president seems to have handled it and as far as i have been told, most everyone is back on track.

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, sunstoned said:

He preaches the religion of Joseph Smith.  Something some people claimed to have not heard for many, many years.  He speaks of power from God, what is right and what is wrong.  Not corporate decisions or multi million dollar real estate deals made in board rooms behind closed doors.

Yeah, the golden days of Joseph Smith when finances were completely ignored and pure religion was taught.

I mean, it is not like God cares about minutiae and unholy activity like real estate investments. I mean, he certainly never mentioned them in the revelations....

Quote

63 And they shall form a constitution, whereby they may receive stock for the building of that house.

64 And they shall not receive less than fifty dollars for a share of stock in that house, and they shall be permitted to receive fifteen thousand dollars from any one man for stock in that house.

65 But they shall not be permitted to receive over fifteen thousand dollars stock from any one man.

66 And they shall not be permitted to receive under fifty dollars for a share of stock from any one man in that house.

67 And they shall not be permitted to receive any man, as a stockholder in this house, except the same shall pay his stock into their hands at the time he receives stock;

68 And in proportion to the amount of stock he pays into their hands he shall receive stock in that house; but if he pays nothing into their hands he shall not receive any stock in that house.

69 And if any pay stock into their hands it shall be for stock in that house, for himself, and for his generation after him, from generation to generation, so long as he and his heirs shall hold that stock, and do not sell or convey the stock away out of their hands by their own free will and act, if you will do my will, saith the Lord your God.

70 And again, verily I say unto you, if my servant George Miller, and my servant Lyman Wight, and my servant John Snider, and my servant Peter Haws, receive any stock into their hands, in moneys, or in properties wherein they receive the real value of moneys, they shall not appropriate any portion of that stock to any other purpose, only in that house.

71 And if they do appropriate any portion of that stock anywhere else, only in that house, without the consent of the stockholder, and do not repay four-fold for the stock which they appropriate anywhere else, only in that house, they shall be accursed, and shall be moved out of their place, saith the Lord God; for I, the Lord, am God, and cannot be mocked in any of these things.

72 Verily I say unto you, let my servant Joseph pay stock into their hands for the building of that house, as seemeth him good; but my servant Joseph cannot pay over fifteen thousand dollars stock in that house, nor under fifty dollars; neither can any other man, saith the Lord.

Oh..........oops.

[readstoomuch]

1 hour ago, sunstoned said:

He preaches the religion of Joseph Smith.  Something some people claimed to have not heard for many, many years.  He speaks of power from God, what is right and what is wrong.  Not corporate decisions or multi million dollar real estate deals made in board rooms behind closed doors.

I hear people saying that, including the Snufferites (the few of them) that I know.  Then I read about economics, projects sponsored by the Church and bureaucracy put forward in the Doctrine and Covenants.  It seems pretty clear that the extensive records and organization started because of Joseph Smith`s teachings.  I also remember that despite his great teachings, he wasn't always good at economics and handing administrative matters.  Brigham Young was and put his mark on the Church.  A great thread might be, what exactly should Christs church look like and still function in the modern day.  

The Snufferites seem to talk about personally seeing Christ and all of their ordinances being sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise.  If the Holy Spirit doesn`t seal your marriage before this life is over, you won`t be with your spouse in the hereafter.  With the secular anti-mormons predominating, an ultraconservative reach back into the past (preNauvoo) is a less prominent reason I hear of people leaving the Church. 

[Hamba Tuhan]

2 hours ago, sunstoned said:

He preaches the religion of Joseph Smith.  Something some people claimed to have not heard for many, many years.  He speaks of power from God, what is right and what is wrong.  Not corporate decisions or multi million dollar real estate deals made in board rooms behind closed doors.

But I really liked last month's home teaching message on multi-million-dollar real estate deals made in boardrooms behind closed doors. And this month's message about how nothing is right and nothing is wrong, so why worry? And I found all the General Conference talks last April on how there is no power from God especially enlightening. Guess the Snuffer's got nothing for people like me then... 

Edited August 12, 2017 by Hamba Tuhan

[rpn]

Denver Snuffer (who does not claim to be a prophet, and claims no one should look to him for leadership, although he acts like he thinks he is, and bases some of his stature on having had the Second Anointing) started the movement soon after the First Presidency upheld his excommunication.  He claims that God has spoken with him and told him that the Church has gone off the rails and no longer has God's authority.  That each man(?) has direct authority.   They have rebapized using this individual authority.    In September his group will vote to establish new scriptures:  two different men who didn't know each other so the story goes, were inspired to rewrite the  Doctrine and Covenants.  They have put their work out there and it has been consolidated and talked through and their joint effort is going to be voted on.  They removed scriptures that they claim the evidence doesn't support JS as giving (notably the ones that organize the church and 132).   Denver Snuffer has written new revelation he has gotten.   I think they are going to call it something else too.  But if anyone wants to study it at some point, it will be interesting to see the basis for what they keep or remove.    They are planning and collecting money to build their own temple.   They adopted use of the LDS temple ceremony for their weddings.

As to the stakes moving to apostasy?   There has been stake consolidation in Boise, that some have attributed to Snufferites leaving.  And  there were a much bigger group at the conference held in May (if I recall correctly it was near a 1000), than organizers had planned for.  

But the movement is just 3 years old, and I've heard of members leaving the Snufferites since this movement to form a new church has accelerated.   So who knows how it will ultimately sort out.  

ETA:  They say they are reclaiming JS because the current institutional church has left the restored Gospel. 

Edited August 12, 2017 by rpn

[rockpond]

35 minutes ago, rpn said:

Denver Snuffer (who does not claim to be a prophet, and claims no one should look to him for leadership, although he acts like he thinks he is, and bases some of his stature on having had the Second Anointing) started the movement soon after the First Presidency upheld his excommunication.  He claims that God has spoken with him and told him that the Church has gone off the rails and no longer has God's authority.  That each man(?) has direct authority.   They have rebapized using this individual authority.    In September his group will vote to establish new scriptures:  two different men who didn't know each other so the story goes, were inspired to rewrite the  Doctrine and Covenants.  They have put their work out there and it has been consolidated and talked through and their joint effort is going to be voted on.  They removed scriptures that they claim the evidence doesn't support JS as giving (notably the ones that organize the church and 132).   Denver Snuffer has written new revelation he has gotten.   I think they are going to call it something else too.  But if anyone wants to study it at some point, it will be interesting to see the basis for what they keep or remove.    They are planning and collecting money to build their own temple.   They adopted use of the LDS temple ceremony for their weddings.

As to the stakes moving to apostasy?   There has been stake consolidation in Boise, that some have attributed to Snufferites leaving.  And  there were a much bigger group at the conference held in May (if I recall correctly it was near a 1000), than organizers had planned for.  

But the movement is just 3 years old, and I've heard of members leaving the Snufferites since this movement to form a new church has accelerated.   So who knows how it will ultimately sort out.  

Fabrizio asked Joseph Lebaron where he saw the Remnant movement going in the future.  Lebaron responded that he sees one of two paths happening:  1)  either Snuffer becomes the prophet and formal leader of the group, even though he eschews that role now; or 2) the movement will fracture into many pieces with each declaring their own unique revelation and doctrine.

When Fabrizio asked the same question of Park, she didn't necessarily disagree with Lebaron but she stated her feeling that it will continue in its current state for longer than we may think.

We'll see.

[Scott Lloyd]

16 hours ago, rockpond said:

I bolded your first question.  I think it's a great question.  There is a part of me that would really like to hear them address Denver Snuffer's teachings and claimed revelations.  But...

My answer to your question is "no".  I actually don't think they would respond differently.  I believe (others disagree) that we have a significant number of members leaving the church over specific doctrinal and historical issues.  The Brethren have attempted to address that through the anonymously authored gospel topics essays.  But they have given those essays and topics little attention in General Conference and church curriculum.  Instead, we get more generic messages like stay in the ship, give Brother Joseph a break, and wrong roads.  To me, that seems like the strategy:  don't bring up the details of troubling topics because you are likely to do more damage than good.

I think the Brethren won't risk talking "directly and unmistakably" about Snuffer and the Remnant movement because they don't want to raise awareness.

Yeah, all we get is the same-old-same-old: faith in Jesus Christ, repentance, baptism for the remission of sins, laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost and enduring to the end. 

[rockpond]

1 minute ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Yeah, all we get is the same-old-same-old: faith in Jesus Christ, repentance, baptism for the remission of sins, laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost and enduring to the end. 

We get that and much more.  Read for comprehension, Scott.

[USU78]

11 minutes ago, rockpond said:

We get that and much more.  Read for comprehension, Scott.

Mr Spock never gets Kirk's jokes.

"Humor. It is a difficult concept, Captain."

[stemelbow]

10 hours ago, rockpond said:

I would encourage you to listen to the interview.  Download it and listen during a drive or a workout or something.  Fabrizio is a great interviewer and Park is knowledgeable on the subject and has gone directly to Snuffer with questions.  

I listened.  It's really vague allusions to letters from apostles to Stake Presidents and area authorities, "and vice versa", where there are whole areas in Utah and Idaho where whole stakes are in danger of apostasy.  I think she's being a little naïve to think a letter of concern implicates the voice of a whole stake.  I've never seen a univocal stake, as much as people get in line with the Church, even.  It sounds like she has gotten leaked documents from the Church, as she claims, that raise flags of concern about this, in certain areas, and she's conflating that to say more than it says.  THat's my guess.  Of course only she can be privy to this leaked info, so we get it all through her interpretation, rather than her sharing--I suppose to keep trust with those who leak the info to her. 

After listening, though, I'd say they are far more of a mixed bag then I thought.  I saw them as a conservative, trying to go back to the gospel of Joseph, in a JLHProf, kind of way, but there also wanting to be inclusive and let it all hang out, let things develop and proceed by the seat of our pants type of thing, which is almost more like me.  Then again, they apparently, have issues with homosexuality and gender much like the mainstream Church, which shuts me out.  I can't tell if I'm intrigued or repelled here, though.  Everything I've seen and read from Denver, as I recall, has been kind of not notable, I guess I'll say. 

 

[stemelbow]

1 hour ago, rpn said:

Denver Snuffer (who does not claim to be a prophet, and claims no one should look to him for leadership, although he acts like he thinks he is, and bases some of his stature on having had the Second Anointing) started the movement soon after the First Presidency upheld his excommunication.  He claims that God has spoken with him and told him that the Church has gone off the rails and no longer has God's authority.  That each man(?) has direct authority.   They have rebapized using this individual authority.    In September his group will vote to establish new scriptures:  two different men who didn't know each other so the story goes, were inspired to rewrite the  Doctrine and Covenants.  They have put their work out there and it has been consolidated and talked through and their joint effort is going to be voted on.  They removed scriptures that they claim the evidence doesn't support JS as giving (notably the ones that organize the church and 132).   Denver Snuffer has written new revelation he has gotten.   I think they are going to call it something else too.  But if anyone wants to study it at some point, it will be interesting to see the basis for what they keep or remove.    They are planning and collecting money to build their own temple.   They adopted use of the LDS temple ceremony for their weddings.

As to the stakes moving to apostasy?   There has been stake consolidation in Boise, that some have attributed to Snufferites leaving.  And  there were a much bigger group at the conference held in May (if I recall correctly it was near a 1000), than organizers had planned for.  

But the movement is just 3 years old, and I've heard of members leaving the Snufferites since this movement to form a new church has accelerated.   So who knows how it will ultimately sort out.  

ETA:  They say they are reclaiming JS because the current institutional church has left the restored Gospel. 

So when Sis Park mentioned her leaked documents, she also said some are as far back as 2014 and then she references Boise, or Doug does and she continued on with it.  It sounds like her allusion to whole stakes in trouble is perhaps in reference to this Boise issue, as much as anything, getting vague and giving the impression it is bigger than it is.  But she also claims at another point, Denver could say he's speaking at the Marriott Center tomorrow and it'd be packed full--which also seems like an exaggeration.  I mean some people mobilize but that seems like a stretch to say the least, which it was probably meant to be--using hyperbole to make a point. 

I think that it's interesting of people leaving the Snuffer group to form their own movements.  Sounds like their dispersion might already be happening to some extent.

[rockpond]

49 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

I listened.  It's really vague allusions to letters from apostles to Stake Presidents and area authorities, "and vice versa", where there are whole areas in Utah and Idaho where whole stakes are in danger of apostasy.  I think she's being a little naïve to think a letter of concern implicates the voice of a whole stake.  I've never seen a univocal stake, as much as people get in line with the Church, even.  It sounds like she has gotten leaked documents from the Church, as she claims, that raise flags of concern about this, in certain areas, and she's conflating that to say more than it says.  THat's my guess.  Of course only she can be privy to this leaked info, so we get it all through her interpretation, rather than her sharing--I suppose to keep trust with those who leak the info to her. 

After listening, though, I'd say they are far more of a mixed bag then I thought.  I saw them as a conservative, trying to go back to the gospel of Joseph, in a JLHProf, kind of way, but there also wanting to be inclusive and let it all hang out, let things develop and proceed by the seat of our pants type of thing, which is almost more like me.  Then again, they apparently, have issues with homosexuality and gender much like the mainstream Church, which shuts me out.  I can't tell if I'm intrigued or repelled here, though.  Everything I've seen and read from Denver, as I recall, has been kind of not notable, I guess I'll say. 

 

I agree with your first paragraph.  And, I have similar feelings to those you describe in your second paragraph with one exception:  I would guess that Snuffer's books, particularly "The Second Comforter" and "Passing the Heavenly Gift" may be notable as those seem to draw people in to his message.  But, I haven't read them... they may or may not make my reading queue at some future point.

[rockpond]

45 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

So when Sis Park mentioned her leaked documents, she also said some are as far back as 2014 and then she references Boise, or Doug does and she continued on with it.  It sounds like her allusion to whole stakes in trouble is perhaps in reference to this Boise issue, as much as anything, getting vague and giving the impression it is bigger than it is.  But she also claims at another point, Denver could say he's speaking at the Marriott Center tomorrow and it'd be packed full--which also seems like an exaggeration.  I mean some people mobilize but that seems like a stretch to say the least, which it was probably meant to be--using hyperbole to make a point. 

I think that it's interesting of people leaving the Snuffer group to form their own movements.  Sounds like their dispersion might already be happening to some extent.

I missed the reference to Boise.  That would answer ksfisher's question way back near the top of the first page of this thread.

I had a similar reaction to her comment about the Marriott Center ("no way!") but then she referred to a "room in the Marriott Center" which made me realize that she was likely referring to the "Marriott City Center" hotel and convention center in SLC.

[Scott Lloyd]

1 hour ago, rockpond said:

We get that and much more.  Read for comprehension, Scott.

Yeah, we get more.

The Brethren will occasionally get topical on the current events of the day. I fear some don't like it much when they do.

My sig line has three or four examples of that (well, one of the statements is actually from one of the sisters).

At a CES satellite broadcast last year, President Russell M. Nelson gave us a glimpse into the revelatory process by which the Presidency and the Twelve arrived at the November 2015 handbook revision. That set off an uproar the likes of which we had not seen since, well, the news got out about the November 2015 handbook revision.

By the way, urging the Latter-day Saints to stay in the Old Ship Zion and hang on is currently topical.

 

[Scott Lloyd]

6 minutes ago, rockpond said:

I missed the reference to Boise.  That would answer ksfisher's question way back near the top of the first page of this thread.

I had a similar reaction to her comment about the Marriott Center ("no way!") but then she referred to a "room in the Marriott Center" which made me realize that she was likely referring to the "Marriott City Center" hotel and convention center in SLC.

Heh. As if Snuffer would be allowed to convene a gathering of apostates at the BYU Marriott Center. 

[rockpond]

5 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Yeah, we get more.

The Brethren will occasionally get topical on the current events of the day. I fear some don't like it much when they do.

My sig line has three or four examples of that (well, one of the statements is actually from one of the sisters).

At a CES satellite broadcast last year, President Russell M. Nelson gave us a glimpse into the revelatory process by which the Presidency and the Twelve arrived at the November 2015 handbook revision. That set off an uproar the likes of which we had not seen since, well, the news got out about the November 2015 handbook revision.

By the way, urging the Latter-day Saints to stay in the Old Ship Zion and hang on is currently topical.

 

Yes, it is topical.  That was my point, Scott.  It addresses the issues of the day without going into the specifics that might lead members to research matters that could be damaging to their faith.  I actually thought that you would agree with my point that the Brethren are unlikely to specifically address Denver Snuffer or "the remnant movement" in, say, a general conference address or YSA fireside.  But they are likely to give counsel to members to help them against being led away by Snuffer.

[stemelbow]

19 minutes ago, rockpond said:

I missed the reference to Boise.  That would answer ksfisher's question way back near the top of the first page of this thread.

I had a similar reaction to her comment about the Marriott Center ("no way!") but then she referred to a "room in the Marriott Center" which made me realize that she was likely referring to the "Marriott City Center" hotel and convention center in SLC.

Oops on the Marriott center misunderstanding.  I am curious how many people we can assume are part of this movement thoigh