Mormon trek and not being wise

[bsjkki]

I do not think Mormon trek is a wise thing to do.  I have always thought it sounded miserable but others have shared uplifting stories from their experience on trek.  I have also heard horror stories.   I feel, with the death of this young mother trek should be reevaluated.  It is not wise to go hiking in extreme heat and most Stakes pick a week and they go out no matter what.  This is not using wisdom.  http://www.sltrib.com/home/4033300-155/mormon-pioneer-trek-ma-from-arkansas

[Ginger Snaps]

I agree 1000% .  To put kids who are used to much lighter, thinner clothing into heavy pioneer wear (especially the girls who are put into long sleeved dresses and sunbonnets) in high temperatures--often 100+ F in my area-- and make them perform hard physical labor is absurdly dangerous.  My FIL went as medical assistance last time and had to rehydrate a girl with an IV.  

Plus--let's all go out and play pioneer for 3-4 days, all the while knowing we'll go home to our comfy air-conditioned home with a refrigerator full of food, and then say we know what the pioneers went through? No. It's an insult to the memory of the pioneers.  


 

[JLHPROF]

I always wondered what the pioneers would think about us romanticizing or glorifying what they considered a great trial.

Would we want our descendants pretending to face our challenges for fun?

[rpn]

While acknowledging that it might be unwise in certain circumstances (the record SW heat?) or by certain people, the sheer irony of telling people it is unwise to walk 20 miles over three days, when many of our american ancestors have walked across the continent without provided water and medical personnel assigned to treks, is an incredible statement of how wimpy we have gotten.

I had occasion to read the manual for treks this AM.   It requires every handcart to carry 10 gal of water, to be refreshed several times during each day, as everyone is to drink water every 20-30 minutes, and at least a dr, nurse and emt, with resources, with more if more participants, and encourages all participants to start a training regimen of walking a couple of months before the trek.   And there are also daily safety briefings.

The only thing I wondered about is that it didn't say how much the participants should consume every 20-30 minutes, and whether it varied depending on the physical characteristics of participants or temp or humidity, and/or terrain difficulty of location at the time.   I also noted that many of the skin condition symptoms that they said would suggest incipient heat issues, would be hard to detect in persons of color --- are there alternative things to look for?

Edited June 22, 2016 by rpn

[bluebell]

I don't think we appreciate how deadly extreme heat is. 

It's very sad that a woman died essentially for no reason.  I don't have any problems with trek, except that some leaders have a weird attitude about the dangers involved. 

[Jeanne]

1 hour ago, bsjkki said:

I do not think Mormon trek is a wise thing to do.  I have always thought it sounded miserable but others have shared uplifting stories from their experience on trek.  I have also heard horror stories.   I feel, with the death of this young mother trek should be reevaluated.  It is not wise to go hiking in extreme heat and most Stakes pick a week and they go out no matter what.  This is not using wisdom.  http://www.sltrib.com/home/4033300-155/mormon-pioneer-trek-ma-from-arkansas

Common sense and safety should rule the day!

[Guest]

1 hour ago, bsjkki said:

I do not think Mormon trek is a wise thing to do.  I have always thought it sounded miserable but others have shared uplifting stories from their experience on trek.  I have also heard horror stories.   I feel, with the death of this young mother trek should be reevaluated.  It is not wise to go hiking in extreme heat and most Stakes pick a week and they go out no matter what.  This is not using wisdom.  http://www.sltrib.com/home/4033300-155/mormon-pioneer-trek-ma-from-arkansas

For many it is not wise, it is always in the summer due to young people's ability to take part. Many of the people who agree to be part of it are not physically fit to do something like this. Here in the East, it is up and down a lot of hills. The only thing we have going for us is billions of trees to rest under when someone gets sick. Oklahoma...what trees? 

[stemelbow]

I don't know that it's trek that's the problem.  It seems to be more about people not being prepared physically and not realizing how much water and food they should consume. 

[ALarson]

12 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I don't think we appreciate how deadly extreme heat is. 

It's very sad that a woman died essentially for no reason.  I don't have any problems with trek, except that some leaders have a weird attitude about the dangers involved. 

I totally agree.  I never forced my own kids to participate in these treks (a couple chose to go on them but a couple did not and I was fine either way).  I'm not a fan of these types of experiences as I feel they break the kids down which causes them to become very emotional.  They then believe this means they are having a spiritual experience (and some may have these, but there are other ways to teach the youth about the trials and sacrifices of the pioneers).  We've had several bad experiences with both youth and leaders on these treks over the years in our stake.  Changes have been made, which has been good.  But, I'd be happy if they just stopped doing them altogether.

[Storm Rider]

Trek is just too hard for the enfeebled youth of today to endure.  If they are going to relive some of the experiences of their pioneer ancestors they should all be in an air conditioned bus as they drive to several points to de-bus and hear some quaint story about the trials of Mormon pioneers.  Then they could get back on the bus for dessert and ice cream before going to the next stop.  No need to dress them in pioneer regalia because, God knows, we would not want little Tommy and little Lucy to be uncomfortable.  After all, it is pure abuse if these little people endure any degree of discomfort in their lives.  

We could also make sure the buses had televisions for playing movies non-stop and all the X-Boxes so that none of them missed any games while swilling soda pop and throwing back their 15,000 calorie per bite snacks.

Who ever heard of children having their horizons expanded by enduring, if just for a few days, some of the experiences of their ancestors.  

Yup, down with trek; down with youth camp; down with anything that causes growth; down with trials; down with discomfort!  Up with fat children that have never experienced physical trials.  Yes, we are building the strong leaders of tomorrow!

Seriously people???

[Duncan]

Our stake did it last year. Naturally we got the "lessons I learned from Trek" boring talks afterwards like this one guy on our ward talked about what he ate for his meals and how the entire group had to bury pretend dead babies on the way,which to me is inappropriate and something out of a Rob Zombie movie. I heard that more people do trek each year than the original pioneers who had to do it back in the day. The pioneers learned better ways to do things and why do need to physically duplicate what doesn't work? i'm fine going to a museum!

[Scott Lloyd]

Youth handcart trek events have been going on for years now, and the number of participants over the years must be numbering well into the thousands by now. Is this the only recorded fatality that has occurred from such a trek, or have there been others?

Even one is certainly lamentable, but statistically speaking, aren't one or more to be expected? How many people have died over the years on Scout camping trips, "high adventures" and other such things?

I guess the question boils down to whether the value to be obtained from these treks is worth the risk. Based on the many heartfelt, often tearful, testimonies I have heard from youthful trek participants -- including my own son just prior to his departure on his mission -- I have to believe that it is. I've never seen a higher concentration of emotional testimonies from youth associated with any other type of activity in the Church.

Edited June 22, 2016 by Scott Lloyd

[canard78]

I have no real opinion on the trek tradition itself as it has never reached our side of the pond. 

I do, however, find it bad taste that this family tragedy is being used by a few critics to attack the church, especially so soon after the event.

[smac97]

26 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Youth handcart trek events have been going on for years now, and the number of participants over the years must be numbering well into the thousands by now. Is this the only recorded fatality that has occurred from such a trek, or have there been others.

Even one is certainly lamentable, but statistically speaking, aren't one or more to be expected? How many people have died over the years on Scout camping trips, "high adventures" and other such things?

I guess the question boils down to whether the value to be obtained from these treks is worth the risk. Based on the many heartfelt, often tearful, testimonies I have heard from youthful trek participants -- including my own son just prior to his departure on his mission -- I have to believe that it is.

I think treks should continue, but we do indeed need to be "wise."  A few thoughts:

1. When I was in the ROTC in college I attended the U.S. Army "Jump School" at Fort Benning, Georgia.  The heat and humidity were very intense.  The trainers paid close attention to the "wet bulb" temperature throughout each day (it tracks the ambient outdoor heat relative to the ambient humidity).  This was a major focus of each day's training because A) military combat training often involves intense physical exertion, B) physical exertion makes people more susceptible to heat-related injuries (dehydration being a biggie), C) heat-related injuries don't do anyone any good, and D) different people have different levels of susceptibility to heat-related injuries.

Here is a screen grab from the U.S. Army's "Ranger Handbook" about "Work, Rest and Water Consumption":

You will note that the higher the "Heat Category," the less amount of work is to be done.  So "Hard Work" in "Category 5" heat (90 degrees or more) requires that trainees work only for 10 minutes at a time, and then take 50 minutes off, and during this time the trainees also drink 1 quart of water per hour.  

And keep in mind that the above work/rest/water ratios are prescribed for military training by trainees who are presumably already in very good physical condition.  And even then the Rangers take heat and hydration seriously.  Consider the following instructions for "Hydration and Acclimatization" (also from the Ranger Handbook):

I am not familiar with the trek phenomenon.  Our stake only does it every 7 years.  I never went on it.  But the last time we went, my recollection was that participants were required to physically prepare themselves for several weeks prior to going.  I think measures such as those given above would substantially reduce the risk of heat-related injuries.

2. Participants on the trek would need to dispense with any feelings of "Hey, I can tough it out" in terms of hydration and exertion.  Everyone needs to feel comfortable with saying "I need a break" or "I'm going to call it a day."  That's not exactly in the "Pioneer Spirit" of things (who, after all, generally did not have the option of taking such precautions).  But it's a reasonable and necessary safety measure.

Thanks,

-Smac

 

Edited June 22, 2016 by smac97

[Rain]

2 hours ago, stemelbow said:

I don't know that it's trek that's the problem.  It seems to be more about people not being prepared physically and not realizing how much water and food they should consume. 

I agree. And one size trek does not fit all. There are some that seem to be "let's make this miserable." There are others that are hard, but have balance. The same thing could said for campouts. Or a number of other things.

I was a little concerned last year because I heard a couple of men brag about how this stake does things hard, basically sounding like we are the only true trek because the kids nearly starved. But I asked around to see what was planned and felt ok with it. 

The one place I would change is to help the kids know it won't be the spiritual highlight of their lives for everyone.  It wasn't for my daughter and she really wanted that. As I thought about it I knew that she feels the Spirit almost constantly and doesn't realize it. She may have her highlight at some other time. But for the young man in our ward who just got baptized without his family it was a wonderful experience for him and I'm so glad he got it.  

Edited June 22, 2016 by Rain

[HappyJackWagon]

2 hours ago, Storm Rider said:

Trek is just too hard for the enfeebled youth of today to endure.  If they are going to relive some of the experiences of their pioneer ancestors they should all be in an air conditioned bus as they drive to several points to de-bus and hear some quaint story about the trials of Mormon pioneers.  Then they could get back on the bus for dessert and ice cream before going to the next stop.  No need to dress them in pioneer regalia because, God knows, we would not want little Tommy and little Lucy to be uncomfortable.  After all, it is pure abuse if these little people endure any degree of discomfort in their lives.  

We could also make sure the buses had televisions for playing movies non-stop and all the X-Boxes so that none of them missed any games while swilling soda pop and throwing back their 15,000 calorie per bite snacks.

Who ever heard of children having their horizons expanded by enduring, if just for a few days, some of the experiences of their ancestors.  

Yup, down with trek; down with youth camp; down with anything that causes growth; down with trials; down with discomfort!  Up with fat children that have never experienced physical trials.  Yes, we are building the strong leaders of tomorrow!

Seriously people???

I think it's a little silly dressing up like pioneers and reenacting historical events but that's beside the point.

The problem I have with this, along with other activities, is the lack of safety precautions. Is there a health professional to look after the physical safety of participants? If not, why not?

My daughter recently returned from girls camp. They were on a lake where they had multiple activities, swimming, canoeing etc. Guess how many certified lifeguards they had at camp. ZERO. Instead, they relied on the buddy system and the supervision of regular youth leaders who were untrained in water safety. Thankfully there were no tragedies like occurred on the trek, but unqualified, untrained leaders looking after the physical safety of my daughter is still negligent. I made the mistake of trusting stake leaders to be prepared. I won't do that again.

I don't know if it's laziness in getting professionally trained and certified leaders or maybe it's the expense, but the church seems to cut corners on these things.

[bluebell]

2 hours ago, Storm Rider said:

Trek is just too hard for the enfeebled youth of today to endure.  If they are going to relive some of the experiences of their pioneer ancestors they should all be in an air conditioned bus as they drive to several points to de-bus and hear some quaint story about the trials of Mormon pioneers.  Then they could get back on the bus for dessert and ice cream before going to the next stop.  No need to dress them in pioneer regalia because, God knows, we would not want little Tommy and little Lucy to be uncomfortable.  After all, it is pure abuse if these little people endure any degree of discomfort in their lives.  

We could also make sure the buses had televisions for playing movies non-stop and all the X-Boxes so that none of them missed any games while swilling soda pop and throwing back their 15,000 calorie per bite snacks.

Who ever heard of children having their horizons expanded by enduring, if just for a few days, some of the experiences of their ancestors.  

Yup, down with trek; down with youth camp; down with anything that causes growth; down with trials; down with discomfort!  Up with fat children that have never experienced physical trials.  Yes, we are building the strong leaders of tomorrow!

Seriously people???

A woman died on trek in Arkansas.

A. Woman. Died. 

And you think sarcasm is a good way to respond to parents concerned about their kids safety at trek?

[stemelbow]

3 minutes ago, Rain said:

I agree. And one size trek does not fit all. There are some that seem to be "let's make this miserable." There are others that are hard, but have balance. The same thing could said for campouts. Or a number of other things.

I was a little concerned last year because I heard a couple of men brag about how this stake does things hard, basically sounding like we are the only true trek because the kids nearly starved. But I asked around to see what was planned and felt ok with it. 

The one place I would change is to help the kids know it won't be the spiritual highlight of their lives for everyone.  It wasn't for my daughter and she really wanted that. As I thought about it I knew that she feels the Spirit almost constantly and doesn't realize it. She may have her highlight at some other time. But for the young man in our ward who just got baptized without his family it was a wonderful experience for him and I'm so glad he got it.  

Sure.  I think it was inevitable that someone died.  the formula for trek is set up for this. Have a bunch of unfit adults, for the most part, lead a bunch of kids, many of who are unfit as well, on a trek often in extreme heat when they are used to comfort and ease.  A formula for problems.  I get the experience can be meaningful to some people and for that I can support.  But gads man, don't let people get heat stroke, suffer from severe dehydration leading to at least one person to death as a result. 

A friend of mine reported recently that at one of his ward's trek experience 32 people had to get IVs.  I can't verify that besides what he told me, but hearing that made me all the more convinced too many are going at this without any knowledge of how to prepare for it. 

[Scott Lloyd]

12 minutes ago, Rain said:

I agree. And one size trek does not fit all. There are some that seem to be "let's make this miserable." There are others that are hard, but have balance. The same thing could said for campouts. Or a number of other things.

I was a little concerned last year because I heard a couple of men brag about how this stake does things hats, basically sounding like we are the only true trek because the kids nearly starved. But I asked around to see what was planned and felt ok with it. 

The one place I would change is to help the kids know it won't be the spiritual highlight of their lives for everyone.  It wasn't for my daughter and she really wanted that.  Add I thought about it I knew that she feels the Spirit almost constantly and doesn't realize it.  But for the young man in our ward who just got baptized without his family it was a woderful experience for him and I'm so glad it got it.  

The son I mentioned above, who bore an emotional testimony after his trek experience just before he left on his mission, went on a previous trek put on by the stake a few years earlier. That first one was not the spiritual experience he thought it would be and, in fact, he was somewhat negative about it afterward.

Maybe some of it has to do with where the individual is in his growth, development, circumstances, expectations, maturity level, etc.

Edited June 22, 2016 by Scott Lloyd

[Doctor Steuss]

11 minutes ago, smac97 said:

[...] A) military combat training often involves intense physical exertion, B) physical exertion makes people more susceptible to heat-related injuries (dehydration being a biggie), C) heat-related injuries don't do anyone any good, and D) different people have different levels of susceptibility to heat-related injuries. [...]

Thank you for sharing this.  Very important advice for anyone who is going to be doing any type of activities outdoors, or overseeing anyone who is -- especially with current heatwaves in various areas of the country.

I have to remind myself of "D" often.

[Rain]

9 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

The son I mentioned above, who bore an emotional testimony after his trek experience just before he left on his mission, went on a previous trek put on by the stake a few years earlier. That first one was not the spiritual experience he thought it would be and, in fact, he was somewhat negative about it afterward.

Maybe some of it has to do with where the individual is in his growth, development, circumstances, expectations, maturity level, etc.

Could be. I just figure the timing was right for some and not for others. She was open to it. The Lord didn't see it was needed for whatever reason. I'm ok with that. It took her awhile, but she is now ok with it as well. It's not that she didn't feel the Spirit, she just didn't feel the Spirit in a life changing way. 

My oldest went as well and as far I can tell he didn't have a spiritual experience, but then he also wasn't open to it. 

I'm curious how it will be for my youngest.  

[smac97]

2 hours ago, Storm Rider said:

Trek is just too hard for the enfeebled youth of today to endure.  If they are going to relive some of the experiences of their pioneer ancestors they should all be in an air conditioned bus as they drive to several points to de-bus and hear some quaint story about the trials of Mormon pioneers.  Then they could get back on the bus for dessert and ice cream before going to the next stop.  No need to dress them in pioneer regalia because, God knows, we would not want little Tommy and little Lucy to be uncomfortable.  After all, it is pure abuse if these little people endure any degree of discomfort in their lives.  

We could also make sure the buses had televisions for playing movies non-stop and all the X-Boxes so that none of them missed any games while swilling soda pop and throwing back their 15,000 calorie per bite snacks.

Who ever heard of children having their horizons expanded by enduring, if just for a few days, some of the experiences of their ancestors.  

Yup, down with trek; down with youth camp; down with anything that causes growth; down with trials; down with discomfort!  Up with fat children that have never experienced physical trials.  Yes, we are building the strong leaders of tomorrow!

Seriously people???

I think you are not being fair or reasonable here.  Many of the Saints in the trek West were "city folk," and had a terrible ordeal in terms of coping with the physical exertions and privations of the migration.  Many died.  That's not necessarily a matter of being "enfeebled."  

Trek is not really a reasonable test of a person's mettle.  It's a one-every-seven-years kind of thing.  Plenty of kids (and adults) are out of shape, and that is unfortunate.  But Trek is more a matter of coping with the combination of A) heat, B) physical exertion, and C) hydration.  I served my mission in Taiwan.  It was very hot and humid.  I had just completed an extended session of military training, so I was in great shape, but it still took some weeks for me to become acclimatized to it.  Participants in Trek don't get that option, or they may not have sufficiently prepared themselves.  And even then I have a hard time faulting people who have a difficult time on Trek.  We all respond to heat differently.  Some can cope with it and adapt to it better and faster than others.  So it's a bit absurd to scoop up a bunch of kids and parents (most of whom live and work in air-conditioned comfort), send them on a very rigorous trek where heat-related injuries are a very real concern, and then tut-tut them if they don't measure up to some idealized perception of 19th-century pioneers, who were comprised of A) agrarian and skilled trade workers, and hence were probably in good physical condition and were long acclimatized to hot temperatures, and who still struggled with the privations of the "trek" westward, and B) "city folk" who, like many of us today, did not make a living by intense physical effort, but were instead accustomed to "city living," and hence struggled mightily with the conditions imposed on them during the trek westward.

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited June 22, 2016 by smac97

[smac97]

13 minutes ago, Doctor Steuss said:

Thank you for sharing this.  Very important advice for anyone who is going to be doing any type of activities outdoors, or overseeing anyone who is -- especially with current heatwaves in various areas of the country.

I have to remind myself of "D" often.

I had a "greenie" on my mission who was not in very good shape when he arrived.  I pushed him rather vigorously, perhaps a bit too much at times.  I did not want malingering to slow down the work, but I also recognized that he needed time to acclimatize to the heat and humidity and daily rigors of missionary life.  On balance I wish I had gone a little easier on him.

Thanks,

-Smac

[jkwilliams]

4 hours ago, bsjkki said:

I do not think Mormon trek is a wise thing to do.  I have always thought it sounded miserable but others have shared uplifting stories from their experience on trek.  I have also heard horror stories.   I feel, with the death of this young mother trek should be reevaluated.  It is not wise to go hiking in extreme heat and most Stakes pick a week and they go out no matter what.  This is not using wisdom.  http://www.sltrib.com/home/4033300-155/mormon-pioneer-trek-ma-from-arkansas

So sorry to read that. I've written before how poorly prepared the trek was that my two oldest participated in several years ago in Oklahoma. Quite a few people ended up in the hospital with heat stroke, and they all came home with ticks and chiggers and bad sunburns. My daughter later was assigned to write a paper in school about "the worst experience of my life," and she wrote about trek. The ones they do in Martin's Cove seem to be well organized, but other experiences vary dramatically.

[Scott Lloyd]

23 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

Sure.  I think it was inevitable that someone died.  the formula for trek is set up for this. Have a bunch of unfit adults, for the most part, lead a bunch of kids, many of who are unfit as well, on a trek often in extreme heat when they are used to comfort and ease.  A formula for problems.  I get the experience can be meaningful to some people and for that I can support.  But gads man, don't let people get heat stroke, suffer from severe dehydration leading to at least one person to death as a result. 

A friend of mine reported recently that at one of his ward's trek experience 32 people had to get IVs.  I can't verify that besides what he told me, but hearing that made me all the more convinced too many are going at this without any knowledge of how to prepare for it. 

I think you are making an unjust blanket generalization here. No doubt in the past some have been unwise in how they have undertaken these ventures. But if all or even most had been as irresponsible as you imply, I think we would have had many more tragedies by now.

Again, I have to compare it to Boy Scout outdoor adventures: Do we rule all of them out just because some in the past have been unwise in how they have undertaken them?