Danzo Posted June 23, 2016 Posted June 23, 2016 5 minutes ago, jkwilliams said: Probably because most campgrounds are closed if bears keep coming back. I think the real reason is that Automobiles are just more dangerous than black bears.
jkwilliams Posted June 23, 2016 Posted June 23, 2016 1 minute ago, Danzo said: I think the real reason is that Automobiles are just more dangerous than black bears. So, let me get this straight: you're actually arguing that it's not irresponsible to hold campouts where bears are all too common because more people are killed in cars than by bears? Really? 1
Popular Post Doctor Steuss Posted June 23, 2016 Popular Post Posted June 23, 2016 I think we can at least find common ground that bears driving automobiles at camps would be bad. 15
Danzo Posted June 23, 2016 Posted June 23, 2016 2 minutes ago, jkwilliams said: So, let me get this straight: you're actually arguing that it's not irresponsible to hold campouts where bears are all too common because more people are killed in cars than by bears? Really? I think black bears and automobiles present risks that can be managed. The bigger risks should be worried about more than the smaller risks. I think the biggest issue is that bears are "scarier" than automobiles, which has nothing to do with their actual danger. The youth are more frightened by the sight of a bear than the sight of a car or a cloud (weather incidents are a much bigger cause of fatalities than bears). I have spent many youth activities in bear country without harm, we were taught how to deal with them, which mitigated the risk. I believe the most dangerous creature one can encounter in the wild would be another human. They are far more capable of causing harm than black bears. The only time I was seriously injured on a youth activity happened while in an automobile.
HappyJackWagon Posted June 23, 2016 Posted June 23, 2016 (edited) 19 hours ago, smac97 said: No, I won't. But I suspect we have different understandings of the concept of "negligence." Mine is informed and governed by extensive legal principles developed over centuries in the U.K. and the U.S. Yours, I think, is governed by a dislike of Mormons. "Negligence" as a legal concept involves analysis of an activity and the perception of that activity by a "reasonably prudent person." Every year hundreds of millions of people go swimming without a lifeguard. The absence of a lifeguard is not, in my view, generally "negligent." You feel otherwise, but you have repeatedly failed to explain your reasoning. I've never said that "safety isn't important," let alone pretended as much. You are bearing false witness here. Thanks, -Smac Please explain why my expectation that standard safety practices I would expect any organization to follow does not apply to the church. And beyond that, why my consistent expectation of all organizations is "governed by a [my] dislike of Mormons." I'm a Mormon. My family are all Mormon. The large majority of my friends are Mormon, so your statement is absurd, inflammatory, and unfounded. Imagine your school district was taking a group of middle school and high school students on an adventure. On this activity there would be swimming and other water activities. Now imagine your child died or was severely injured while participating in this activity. You learn that there was no certified lifeguard and that standard safety precautions were not followed. Would you brush off the death/injury as an unfortunate mishap or would you hold the school responsible? Is it reasonable to expect that the school would provide for the safety of the children in their charge or would you dismiss it as an accident that is unavoidable, because after all "every year hundreds of millions of people go swimming without a lifeguard"? I'm not sure what is hard to understand about the necessity of an organized group, be it church, school, business, whatever, taking preventive steps to protect the safety of the people in their charge. If a business or school did what you are excusing the church for, there would be lawsuits. Edited June 23, 2016 by HappyJackWagon 1
smac97 Posted June 23, 2016 Posted June 23, 2016 11 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said: Please explain why my expectation that standard safety practices I would expect any organization to follow does not apply to the church. And beyond that, why my consistent expectation of all organizations is "governed by a [my] dislike of Mormons." I'm a Mormon. My family are all Mormon. The large majority of my friends are Mormon, so your statement is absurd, inflammatory, and unfounded. Imagine your school district was taking a group of middle school and high school students on an adventure. On this activity there would be swimming and other water activities. Now imagine your child died or was severely injured while participating in this activity. You learn that there was no certified lifeguard and that standard safety precautions were not followed. Would you brush off the death/injury as an unfortunate mishap or would you hold the school responsible? Is it reasonable to expect that the school would provide for the safety of the children in their charge or would you dismiss it as an accident that is unavoidable, because after all "every year hundreds of millions of people go swimming without a lifeguard"? I'm not sure what is hard to understand about the necessity of an organized group, be it church, school, business, whatever, taking preventive steps to protect the safety of the people in their charge. If a business or school did what you are excusing the church for, there would be lawsuits. I spoke in error. I retract my statements and apologize. Thanks, -Smac 2
jkwilliams Posted June 23, 2016 Posted June 23, 2016 25 minutes ago, Danzo said: I think black bears and automobiles present risks that can be managed. The bigger risks should be worried about more than the smaller risks. I think the biggest issue is that bears are "scarier" than automobiles, which has nothing to do with their actual danger. The youth are more frightened by the sight of a bear than the sight of a car or a cloud (weather incidents are a much bigger cause of fatalities than bears). I have spent many youth activities in bear country without harm, we were taught how to deal with them, which mitigated the risk. I believe the most dangerous creature one can encounter in the wild would be another human. They are far more capable of causing harm than black bears. The only time I was seriously injured on a youth activity happened while in an automobile. I've been around bears and cars, and I would hope that any group would take necessary safety precautions. From what I can tell, the church is apparently not taking any precautions.
ttribe Posted June 23, 2016 Posted June 23, 2016 (edited) 5 hours ago, rodheadlee said: Can't your God resurrect her? What a bizarre question. Do you realize that I'm LDS, a returned missionary, married in the Temple, etc.? Edited June 23, 2016 by ttribe
jkwilliams Posted June 23, 2016 Posted June 23, 2016 Just now, ttribe said: What I bizarre question. Do you realize that I'm LDS, a returned missionary, married in the Temple, etc.? Doesn't mean you're not evil. Just saying.
ttribe Posted June 23, 2016 Posted June 23, 2016 Just now, jkwilliams said: Doesn't mean you're not evil. Just saying. Well, that I know. But what other God does he think I'm worshiping? Absolutely bizarre.
jkwilliams Posted June 23, 2016 Posted June 23, 2016 2 minutes ago, ttribe said: Well, that I know. But what other God does he think I'm worshiping? Absolutely bizarre. Molech, maybe? 2
ttribe Posted June 23, 2016 Posted June 23, 2016 4 minutes ago, jkwilliams said: Molech, maybe? Ohh, good one. I wouldn't have thought of that one.
mtomm Posted June 23, 2016 Posted June 23, 2016 13 hours ago, bsjkki said: That is just a wee bit snarky. The problem is the Bears at this camp are returning yearly and have become accustomed to humans. In the article below you will notice that campgrounds are closed if Bears continuously return. That is the responsible course of action. At this church owned and operated camp, one girl had a hole ripped in her tent while she was inside and another found a bear between her and her group on the main road in camp. These are regular, yearly occurrences not isolated incidences which actually increases the danger. Plus, the bear tips are so intensely stressed, the girls are terrified and the bear encounters are what is discussed the most after camp. http://www.denverpost.com/2014/09/06/officials-say-humans-to-blame-for-colorado-bear-encounters/ I'm sorry that someone is trivializing this issue with the bears. I went slack-jawed when I read your original post. Please do not send your children to that camp if the best the leaders can do is carry bean bag guns. Bear spray is always the recommended defense for protecting yourself from bears. But, of course, the real solution would be to close the camp until the bear situation can be resolved. This is just nuts! Even if people die in cars that is no excuse to put the girls and leaders in unnecessary danger.
jkwilliams Posted June 23, 2016 Posted June 23, 2016 34 minutes ago, ttribe said: Ohh, good one. I wouldn't have thought of that one. Wiraqocha works for me.
ttribe Posted June 23, 2016 Posted June 23, 2016 48 minutes ago, jkwilliams said: Wiraqocha works for me. In the interest of adding to the board-pantheon of obscure ancient gods, I believe I will choose Abrasax/Abraxas: http://www.mandatory.com/2013/06/06/weird-and-wonderful-gods-from-around-the-world/8 Who wouldn't want a rooster head on their god?
consiglieri Posted June 23, 2016 Posted June 23, 2016 On 6/22/2016 at 0:38 PM, canard78 said: I have no real opinion on the trek tradition itself as it has never reached our side of the pond. I do, however, find it bad taste that this family tragedy is being used by a few critics to attack the church, especially so soon after the event. I agree. Some people will unfortunately drop in their tracks running a marathon, playing basketball, or any strenuous activity. This sister happened to meet her end during trek. Thousands and thousands of Mormons participate in trek every year. The fact that this one tragic instance out of thousands occurred says nothing about the value of the trek experience, which for many is uplifting.
bsjkki Posted June 23, 2016 Author Posted June 23, 2016 48 minutes ago, mtomm said: I'm sorry that someone is trivializing this issue with the bears. I went slack-jawed when I read your original post. Please do not send your children to that camp if the best the leaders can do is carry bean bag guns. Bear spray is always the recommended defense for protecting yourself from bears. But, of course, the real solution would be to close the camp until the bear situation can be resolved. This is just nuts! Even if people die in cars that is no excuse to put the girls and leaders in unnecessary danger. I was a camp leader for 3 years in the high mountains of Colorado and we had no bear issues and we were in bear country. This camp has bear problems. They do give the male leaders beanbag guns AND bear spray but I received neither and was completely shocked at how many Bears roam the camp. The girls and female leaders are in tents. The male leaders walk around camp all night but can not be everywhere. We woke to a bear at our table. Its a bad situation and I think Heavenly Father gave us common sense and expects us to use it. The experts would close this camp and I think we should not put ourselves in bad situations and then expect Heavenly Father to protect us in our folly. Bad things can obviously happen to faithful Mormons. I have believed trek in high temperatures is dangerous for years and I hope a bear doesn't ever attack a girl at this camp.
consiglieri Posted June 23, 2016 Posted June 23, 2016 I have to add that I think the following message from the president of a neighboring stake was unfortunately worded: Quote The president of a neighboring Bentonville Arkansas Stake, Simon Keogh, sent a message to area church members asking for prayers for the Blair family. "I am asking that we unite our faith and prayers on behalf of the Blair family, the Querry family, President Chandler and all who have been affected by this tragedy," Keogh wrote, "that we will collectively ask the Lord to pour out comfort, healing and testimony-building faith upon our brothers and sisters in the Rogers Stake, that the power of Heaven will be made manifest to all." http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865656625/Mormon-youth-leader-dies-on-trek-outing-in-Oklahoma.html?pg=all Asking the Lord for "comfort" for surviving members I understand. Asking the Lord for healing is problematic because there is only one person in need of healing and it is apparent that is not going to happen. But taking the cake is asking the Lord for "testimony-building faith" from this experience. I don't even know what that is supposed to mean.
cinepro Posted June 23, 2016 Posted June 23, 2016 (edited) 8 hours ago, Storm Rider said: Most treks don't happen in 95 degree weather. Most individuals can go on a trek without suffering any lasting problems. Most trek participants have wonderful memories of the time they spent. Denying that experience to all youth does not make sense. You're absolutely right. This year, our Stake did a trek and the theme was "Faith in Every Footstep". But when they do the trek again in four years, I'll suggest that the theme be "Most People Won't Die." Edited June 23, 2016 by cinepro 4
Gray Posted June 23, 2016 Posted June 23, 2016 4 hours ago, Danzo said: I think black bears and automobiles present risks that can be managed. The bigger risks should be worried about more than the smaller risks. I think the biggest issue is that bears are "scarier" than automobiles, which has nothing to do with their actual danger. The youth are more frightened by the sight of a bear than the sight of a car or a cloud (weather incidents are a much bigger cause of fatalities than bears). I have spent many youth activities in bear country without harm, we were taught how to deal with them, which mitigated the risk. I believe the most dangerous creature one can encounter in the wild would be another human. They are far more capable of causing harm than black bears. The only time I was seriously injured on a youth activity happened while in an automobile. I'd much rather cross a parking lot full of cars than a parking lot full of bears.
Danzo Posted June 23, 2016 Posted June 23, 2016 34 minutes ago, Gray said: I'd much rather cross a parking lot full of cars than a parking lot full of bears. Well, I concede it would be irresponsible to make the poor young women cross a parking lot full of bears. Is this camp located at a zoo? 1
Danzo Posted June 23, 2016 Posted June 23, 2016 2 hours ago, mtomm said: I'm sorry that someone is trivializing this issue with the bears. I went slack-jawed when I read your original post. Please do not send your children to that camp if the best the leaders can do is carry bean bag guns. Bear spray is always the recommended defense for protecting yourself from bears. But, of course, the real solution would be to close the camp until the bear situation can be resolved. This is just nuts! Even if people die in cars that is no excuse to put the girls and leaders in unnecessary danger. Lions! and tigers! and bears! Oh My!
BlueDreams Posted June 23, 2016 Posted June 23, 2016 (edited) I went to trek. At the exact same place that this woman had trek ...or ridiculously close to it. I had just graduated high school, was barely 18, and loved it. I wasn't a fan of the couple of things that were a little more emotive (it wasn't extreme, i just don't enjoy most anything that is overly emotional). I would be sad to see it go. In the area that they're at, June is a cooler summer month and the low to mid 90's -what it's at currently, according to google- aren't bad. Most people are still willing to play and go outside at that time. When I went, the first day was in the 90's but it shot up to the 100's for the rest of it. Needless to say heat exhaustion and heat stroke were fairly common, but the methods to deal with it were taken carefully. There were plenty of medical personnel and nearby vehicles that would take the effected people into AC'd vehicles and care for them. One of my friends was especially sensitive to heat, knew it and spent the vast majority of the time with the medical vans to avoid any problems. Water was constantly on hand. So was Gatorade 2-3 times a day (it's the only time in my life that i actually liked the stuff). They even had vegetarian options for meal time that were actually hardy and filling.. And honestly the bonnets were helpful (portable shade and you could wet your hair, stuff it in the bonnet and it was like a walking AC unit). No one was seriously hurt on trek. Honestly the experience did give me a better appreciation of what happened to the Pioneers. And I like the outdoors. So it was a win for me. No one should be forced. But I don't get the need for a call to end a fun tradition that just happened to have a tragic result, deeming it too dangerous. Especially when we allow things in our lives everyday that have a higher likelihood to end in senseless death. Like driving cars. Playing football. etc. (http://www.besthealthdegrees.com/health-risks/). To me it's the newness/uncertainty factor that's more at play than the actual danger of the activity. According to this website I'm more likely to die by my car than by my weekly hikes by a factor of over 2. Yet people never worry excessively about my driving to work alone and tell me how nervous they are for me hiking well marked/used trails alone. With luv, BD Edited June 23, 2016 by BlueDreams 4
Teancum Posted June 23, 2016 Posted June 23, 2016 On June 22, 2016 at 1:40 PM, Storm Rider said: Trek is just too hard for the enfeebled youth of today to endure. If they are going to relive some of the experiences of their pioneer ancestors they should all be in an air conditioned bus as they drive to several points to de-bus and hear some quaint story about the trials of Mormon pioneers. Then they could get back on the bus for dessert and ice cream before going to the next stop. No need to dress them in pioneer regalia because, God knows, we would not want little Tommy and little Lucy to be uncomfortable. After all, it is pure abuse if these little people endure any degree of discomfort in their lives. We could also make sure the buses had televisions for playing movies non-stop and all the X-Boxes so that none of them missed any games while swilling soda pop and throwing back their 15,000 calorie per bite snacks. Who ever heard of children having their horizons expanded by enduring, if just for a few days, some of the experiences of their ancestors. Yup, down with trek; down with youth camp; down with anything that causes growth; down with trials; down with discomfort! Up with fat children that have never experienced physical trials. Yes, we are building the strong leaders of tomorrow! Seriously people??? Wow what a cynical post. I hope you are in good physical shape. Care to join me for a fast 50 plus mile bike ride with lots of climbing in 90 degree humid weather? How well would you fare? Extreme physical activity should not be entered into without proper training and preparation as well as education about under or over hydration if the activity involves any heat. Walking 8 to 10 miles a day along with packing gear in high heat is plain dumb without proper training and preparation. If stakes are going to do these treks they better provide a training plan and education for those who participate. Yes most youth and adults today are not In shape to do something like this. So it is foolish to put such a thing together without proper preparation.
Teancum Posted June 23, 2016 Posted June 23, 2016 3 hours ago, consiglieri said: I agree. Some people will unfortunately drop in their tracks running a marathon, playing basketball, or any strenuous activity. This sister happened to meet her end during trek. Thousands and thousands of Mormons participate in trek every year. The fact that this one tragic instance out of thousands occurred says nothing about the value of the trek experience, which for many is uplifting. This is a fair point. I do lots of endurance sporting events. There are the unfortunate times that someone, no matter what their training, dies due to heat issues, over hydration (more dangerous than under hydration) a heart attack or something else. Many of these people had participated in numerous endurance activities. It just can happen even when prepared.
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