Transgender members of the Church

[Sky]

With all the discussion we have been having about LGBT issues and Mormonism, I've been wondering lately about the "T" in LGBT, though their numbers may be few.    

I'm wondering what we honestly have to offer for people that feel that they were born into the wrong gender.  Gender reassignment surgery, last I checked, can prevent these members from having a Temple Recommend and may also subject them to Church discipline.  Dressing as the opposite gender from what you were born is discouraged in our culture.    

Is the solution psychological counseling with the hope that they will eventually conform to their biological gender?  What if that doesn't work?  What if the only way for them to feel like they can live an authentic life is to make the transition?     

What do we do?  It must be a heavy, confusing burden to bear, indeed!     

[BlueDreams]

You may be interested in this story here: http://northstarlds.org/journeys-of-faith/jesus-wins/

Honestly, I don't think one answer fits all. The transgender spectrum is pretty vast and the level of transitioning varies. This is an area that Christoffersen specifically stated we needed more answers about as a church. So I don't think there's one solid solution. Obviously counseling can help, but it probably won't entirely remove the dissonance...more like finding coping tool and acceptance to better navigate them. I assume we offer people with a circumstance that move counter to what we think is a "perfect fit" for a Mormon the same thing what would mean both stay: the Spirit, community, and spiritual homes. How that is expressed in ones life is probably going to vary, but it doesn't mean it's not there. It's just different. I would hope that one day we have more direction about this. In the meantime I would hope we act in compassion first.

 

With luv,

BD 

 

 

 

 

[rpn]

In the last several years the brethern have been working through the whole issue with several specific cases.   One with ambiguous physicality, another with ambiguous dna/chromosomal workup.  Several with none of that, but androgen insensitivity (which is when the body doesn't grow (usually happens at birth but not altogether known until puberty) right and ends up without some characteristics, or having incompatible characteristics.

All of these case involve questions of science as well as the gender of the spirit who entered the body and religious issues.   And none can easily or maybe ever be resolved in mortal sphere.

These cases are fundamentally different from people who simply decide they are another gender than is clearly discernible both by science and by physicality, IOW because they feel like they are a different gender.

I'm not sure how anyone will know how to sort out this struggle religiously.   Elder Christopherson said at the press conference about the anti discrimination law in 2015 that the Brethern felt they had a lot to learn about those issues.

[The Nehor]

I am pretty sure self-mutilation is not the answer.

[Sky]

26 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I am pretty sure self-mutilation is not the answer.

I want to know what is the answer then!  

Also, you could just say "I'm pretty sure gender-reassignment surgery is not the answer."  It does have a name, you know.  

[Jim Stiles]

31 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I am pretty sure self-mutilation is not the answer.

Agreed.  Gavin McInnes has an article on Takimag where he makes this assertion as well.

[Hamba Tuhan]

7 hours ago, Sky said:

I'm wondering what we honestly have to offer for people that feel that they were born into the wrong gender.

A 37-kilogram woman may sincerely feel obese (and even see obesity when she looks in a mirror). What do we have to offer for her?

[Sky]

26 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

A 37-kilogram woman may sincerely feel obese (and even see obesity when she looks in a mirror). What do we have to offer for her?

I asked a sincere question and would appreciate a sincere attempt at an answer.  I will be monitoring this thread for off-handed remarks and deflections, so please refrain.  Let's try to have a substantive discussion and stay on topic, or we'll have none at all.  

[Hamba Tuhan]

16 minutes ago, Sky said:

I asked a sincere question and would appreciate a sincere attempt at an answer.  I will be monitoring this thread for off-handed remarks and deflections, so please refrain.  Let's try to have a substantive discussion and stay on topic, or we'll have none at all.  

My apologies, but I assure you that that was my most sincere attempt at an answer ... and certainly not an off-handed remark. What do we do when people have sincerely held impressions that simply do not match reality? That is the question. I actually was struck by this comparison whilst watching a doco on TV one night when I was visiting my sister. In it, a medical professional of some kind pointed out that if an anorexic woman came to his office and told him she was seeking weight-reduction surgery because she felt overweight, it would be criminal of him to proceed. Instead, he would try to get her some help. But if another woman came to his office and told him that she was seeking gender-reassignment surgery because she felt like a man, it would be dangerous for him to suggest she get similar help. I found the point striking.

Edited April 1, 2016 by Hamba Tuhan

[Guest]

8 hours ago, Sky said:

With all the discussion we have been having about LGBT issues and Mormonism, I've been wondering lately about the "T" in LGBT, though their numbers may be few.    

I'm wondering what we honestly have to offer for people that feel that they were born into the wrong gender.  Gender reassignment surgery, last I checked, can prevent these members from having a Temple Recommend and may also subject them to Church discipline.  Dressing as the opposite gender from what you were born is discouraged in our culture.    

Is the solution psychological counseling with the hope that they will eventually conform to their biological gender?  What if that doesn't work?  What if the only way for them to feel like they can live an authentic life is to make the transition?     

What do we do?  It must be a heavy, confusing burden to bear, indeed!     

Say what you will but if a man goes to the lady bathroom, he will get summery judgement on the spot. as women all over the country are doing by the laying on of hands and purses. 

[The Nehor]

12 minutes ago, Sky said:

I asked a sincere question and would appreciate a sincere attempt at an answer.  I will be monitoring this thread for off-handed remarks and deflections, so please refrain.  Let's try to have a substantive discussion and stay on topic, or we'll have none at all.  

Don't take your ball and go home.  

5 hours ago, Sky said:

I want to know what is the answer then!  

Also, you could just say "I'm pretty sure gender-reassignment surgery is not the answer."  It does have a name, you know.  

It does have a name but self-mutilation and gender-reassignment surgery are basically synonyms.

8 hours ago, Sky said:

I'm wondering what we honestly have to offer for people that feel that they were born into the wrong gender.  Gender reassignment surgery, last I checked, can prevent these members from having a Temple Recommend and may also subject them to Church discipline.  Dressing as the opposite gender from what you were born is discouraged in our culture.    

Is the solution psychological counseling with the hope that they will eventually conform to their biological gender?  What if that doesn't work?  What if the only way for them to feel like they can live an authentic life is to make the transition?     

What do we do?  It must be a heavy, confusing burden to bear, indeed!     

I think you do the best you can without sinning (pretty sure that kind of surgery done electively is sin). That may involve therapy or counseling or just living with it or whatever.

As to being authentic: if I was authentic to every desire that entered my mind I would probably be something like a combination of Doctor Horrible, Daffy Duck, and Caligula and would probably be locked away and possibly on death row. Some things we just have to live with without expressing.

[JAHS]

According to the Proclamation on the Family:
"Gender is an essential characteristic of individual premortal, mortal, and eternal identity and purpose."

In those cases where it is difficult to determine gender, how does the above quote fit in?

[VideoGameJunkie]

Spencer W Kimball was pretty clear he was against people changing genders. And so is the Family a proclamation. It says gender is eternal. Both are prophets speaking. I don't see how transgenders can answer to that.

[JAHS]

According to Elder Oaks we have some learning and work to do to understand the transgender issue better. It is confusing when we consider that gender was part of our identity in the premortal life.

 

[thesometimesaint]

I think God is more interested in what we do to our fellow men(women) than what's between our legs.

Edited April 1, 2016 by thesometimesaint

[carbon dioxide]

16 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

A 37-kilogram woman may sincerely feel obese (and even see obesity when she looks in a mirror). What do we have to offer for her?

I guess she is obese.  If we are simply are what we identify as, then she is an obese woman since she identifies herself as an obese woman.    I think I should start self identifying myself as a handicap person.  Then I can get a handicap sticker and park in those parking places. 

[carbon dioxide]

14 hours ago, VideoGameJunkie said:

Spencer W Kimball was pretty clear he was against people changing genders. And so is the Family a proclamation. It says gender is eternal. Both are prophets speaking. I don't see how transgenders can answer to that.

Our genders are more than body parts.  We can't change what our spirits are.  I can not change my gender simply by my thoughts and feeling anymore than I can change my species or race by my thoughts or feelings.  I am what I am regardless of what I want to be.

Edited April 1, 2016 by carbon dioxide

[thesometimesaint]

Gender is not  sex. Gender is the range of characteristics pertaining to, and differentiating between, masculinity and femininity. Depending on the context, these characteristics may include biological sex (i.e. the state of being male, female or intersex), sex-based social structures (including gender roles and other social roles), or gender identity.

SEE https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender

[The Nehor]

34 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said:

Gender is not  sex. Gender is the range of characteristics pertaining to, and differentiating between, masculinity and femininity. Depending on the context, these characteristics may include biological sex (i.e. the state of being male, female or intersex), sex-based social structures (including gender roles and other social roles), or gender identity.

SEE https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender

And the fact that we create all this inanity is why God needs to cleanse the Earth.

[thesometimesaint]

11 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

And the fact that we create all this inanity is why God needs to cleanse the Earth.

The Earth is supposed to be swept. I intend to firmly hold onto the bristles of the Gospel Broom.

[Maestrophil]

I honestly think that we as humans are beginning to feel too entitled to have and be whatever we want.  Some people are born with looks, some without.  Some can walk, some can't.  Some can sing some can't carry a tune.  But learning to live with the situation you were born to is part of the trail of this life in my opinion.  

When I was a kid, I wanted to be Jimi Hendrix - wishing to be so would never make it so.  I could reserve the right to practice, learn, get plastic surgery etc.  But I would never be a truly left-handed, black man - and I could not blame people for thinking I was crazy to try, even though it would be my right to attempt to.

I just decided it was ok to be the best me I could be with what situation I was given.  

I do sympathize with those who have gender confusion, and I realize there are situations where medically people were born gender-vague.  I am not an expert and don't know all things.  But I do have to admit I do not understand people born one gender that "identify" as another. It does not fell right to me, and seems out of harmony for what I understand of God's plan.  

If I were faced with that struggle, I feel I would understand my choice would be between 1. Stuff my feelings and submit to God's will (Yes, as spoken by the brethren) or 2. Get out of a church that can't fit my world view.

One thing I do believe, is that whatever choice a person makes, God will know their hearts and minds best and make things right in a way only He can.  My job is to love everyone.

 

MP

[rpn]

Okay, so we know that gender is eternal.  What we don't know is if a specific gender soul who is in a body of a different gender (particularly if for reasons connected to the Fall) has to live that out, or whether it is okay with God to remedy that issue using good medicine on earth.   We presume that all of our spirit gender conforms with our personal view of which gender (and our normal bodies).   And that is probably correct for almost all of God's children.  What if it isn't for some?  Mortals cannot possibly know what the spirit gender is  on earth (except by specific direct revelation, and then you have to identify who has the stewardship to receive such inspiration?   Parents who decide for kiddo?  Only kiddo?  Other?

[thesometimesaint]

If a male wears a dress what is his gender?

SEE http://www.differio.com/clothing/bottoms/overalls-kilts/denim-kilt.html

If a female wears pants what is her gender?

SEE http://shop.nordstrom.com/c/womens-pants

[VideoGameJunkie]

In a conference talk on youtube titled "God shall not be mocked" Spencer W Kimball as prophet says that transgenders who alter their sex will have to face judgment and stand accountable before God for their actions. It seemed pretty clear to me from a prophet how the church feels on the issue.

[Duncan]

I have a hazy memory of an interview that Jamie Farr who played TV's Cpl. Max Klinger on the hit show MASH and he said that he got razzled by his friends for playing a transvestite on TV but then when he got paid they all wanted money....if he was a member of the Church i'm sure there would be members doing the same thing! hahahah!

Edited April 1, 2016 by Duncan