Transgender members of the Church

[JLHPROF]

On Saturday, April 02, 2016 at 1:04 PM, carbon dioxide said:

 Male is male and female is female.  Male is not female because male thinks he is a female.  Female is not male because female thinks she is a male.  Bruce Jenner is still a male regardless of what he wears, what medical procedures he has and whether he gets a legal name change.  Still a dude after all of it.

Be very interesting to see how the resurrection affects this.
Raising the body up as it is laid down...maybe?  Keeping it that way...doubtful.
 

[thesometimesaint]

As great a man as he was I'm torn between laughing and shaking my head at some of his ideas.

[Wanderer7]

2 hours ago, Gray said:

The assumptions here are big enough to drive a truck through. 

But isn't arguing the opposite point an even larger assumption, given the absence of scientific and theological support? Your "wide array of birth defects" (or intersex) are the exception, and amount to a small percentage. Further, these defects do not amount to gender identity issues. In fact, the Intersex Society of North America reports that:

"The truth is that the vast majority of people with intersex conditions identify as male or female rather than transgender or transsexual. Thus, where all people who identify as transgender or transsexual experience problems with their gender identity, only a small portion of intersex people experience these problems."

 

 

[Gray]

6 minutes ago, Wanderer7 said:

But isn't arguing the opposite point an even larger assumption, given the absence of scientific and theological support? Your "wide array of birth defects" (or intersex) are the exception, and amount to a small percentage. Further, these defects do not amount to gender identity issues. In fact, the Intersex Society of North America reports that:

"The truth is that the vast majority of people with intersex conditions identify as male or female rather than transgender or transsexual. Thus, where all people who identify as transgender or transsexual experience problems with their gender identity, only a small portion of intersex people experience these problems."

 

 

 

When it comes to the subject of gender identities at the spiritual level, we have no data. In fact, we have no data on whether or not the spirit exists. I'm just saying, assuming that it could never get mixed up without anything to back that up is a pretty big assumption. As is, of course, assuming that's one's opinion's represent the views of the creator of the universe. 

[Wanderer7]

3 hours ago, Gray said:

 

When it comes to the subject of gender identities at the spiritual level, we have no data. In fact, we have no data on whether or not the spirit exists. I'm just saying, assuming that it could never get mixed up without anything to back that up is a pretty big assumption. As is, of course, assuming that's one's opinion's represent the views of the creator of the universe. 

That's just it. It IS backed up. The point is that there is nothing to back up the opposing view. 

First, I agree that spiritual things cannot be scientifically proven.

Fortunately we need not rely on any of our opinions or make assumptions. Those we sustain as prophets, seers, and revelators have declared that elective transgender procedures disqualify us for temple and priesthood blessings based on the doctrine in the Family Proclamation. On the other hand, there is no theological support for gender reassignment. None. 

The reason I brought up science is that it's the entire basis of your point that someone COULD be born into the wrong gender merely because a vast minority of people are born with gender defects. Yes, there are cases of ambiguous genders and androgen insensitivity. In those cases, we leave it up to the parents and doctors to make the best decision they can and leave the eternal consequences up to the Lord. In all other cases, there is no objective scientific consensus that a person's sex can otherwise be determined based on their inner feelings. None. 

    

[Gray]

4 minutes ago, Wanderer7 said:

That's just it. It IS backed up. The point is that there is nothing to back up the opposing view. 

First, I agree that spiritual things cannot be scientifically proven.

Fortunately we need not rely on any of our opinions or make assumptions. Those we sustain as prophets, seers, and revelators have declared that elective transgender procedures disqualify us for temple and priesthood blessings based on the doctrine in the Family Proclamation. On the other hand, there is no theological support for gender reassignment. None. 

The reason I brought up science is that it's the entire basis of your point that someone COULD be born into the wrong gender merely because a vast minority of people are born with gender defects. Yes, there are cases of ambiguous genders and androgen insensitivity. In those cases, we leave it up to the parents and doctors to make the best decision they can and leave the eternal consequences up to the Lord. In all other cases, there is no objective scientific consensus that a person's sex can otherwise be determined based on their inner feelings. None. 

    

There is no theological support for current policies against gender reassignment surgery, either. Nor is there theological support for the idea that there is perfectly aligned spiritual and physical gender in the fallen telestial world. 

There is certainly scientific support that gender reassignment surgery can provide benefits to well being in certain cases. Regarding inner feelings, that's the entire basis for personal revelation in the LDS church. So aren't these individuals getting personal revelation about their gender, in a sense? 

Edited April 4, 2016 by Gray

[Wanderer7]

49 minutes ago, Gray said:

There is no theological support for current policies against gender reassignment surgery, either. Nor is there theological support for the idea that there is perfectly aligned spiritual and physical gender in the fallen telestial world. 

There is certainly scientific support that gender reassignment surgery can provide benefits to well being in certain cases. Regarding inner feelings, that's the entire basis for personal revelation in the LDS church. So aren't these individuals getting personal revelation about their gender, in a sense? 

Actually there aren't many topics on which the brethren have been clearer. As Elder Christofferson stated:

"There shouldn’t be a perception or an expectation that the Church’s doctrines or position have changed or are changing. It’s simply not true, and we want youth and all people to understand that. The doctrines that relate to human sexuality and gender are really central to our theology."

Central to our theology.

To say that since there might be a chance that the process can get messed up, so therefore we should allow gender reassignment is kind of like saying it's ok to commit violent crime if you are born with an inkling to do so simply because you feel it's part of your divine identity.

In terms of personal revelation regarding gender... I suppose I can't tell someone what revelation they should be receiving. However, unless and until the brethren receive a contrary revelation to what they've already received, I would be very, very wary of anyone claiming to have received a revelation telling them to get a gender reassignment. In my experience, personal revelation doesn't contradict prophetic revelation often... If ever.

And regarding the "scientific evidence" that gender reassignment increases people's sense of "well-being..." Certain prescription pain killers increase some people's sense of well-being. That's scientifically undisputed. But I'm not going to start doling out narcotics just to make people feel what they want to feel.

Edited April 4, 2016 by Wanderer7

[CV75]

2 hours ago, Gray said:

There is no theological support for current policies against gender reassignment surgery

I believe the policy refers only to "elective" gender reassignment surgery.

1 hour ago, Wanderer7 said:

I would be very, very wary of anyone claiming to have received a revelation telling them to get a gender reassignment.

I believe the policy refers only to "elective" gender reassignment surgery.

[CMZ]

A quick search on the subject turns up some interesting material, such as the site at http://ldsgender.com

Edited April 5, 2016 by CMZ

[thesometimesaint]

8 hours ago, Wanderer7 said:

That's just it. It IS backed up. The point is that there is nothing to back up the opposing view. 

First, I agree that spiritual things cannot be scientifically proven.

Fortunately we need not rely on any of our opinions or make assumptions. Those we sustain as prophets, seers, and revelators have declared that elective transgender procedures disqualify us for temple and priesthood blessings based on the doctrine in the Family Proclamation. On the other hand, there is no theological support for gender reassignment. None. 

The reason I brought up science is that it's the entire basis of your point that someone COULD be born into the wrong gender merely because a vast minority of people are born with gender defects. Yes, there are cases of ambiguous genders and androgen insensitivity. In those cases, we leave it up to the parents and doctors to make the best decision they can and leave the eternal consequences up to the Lord. In all other cases, there is no objective scientific consensus that a person's sex can otherwise be determined based on their inner feelings. None. 

 

There is no theological support for a great number of things. It isn't a good idea to fly down that path. So we allow parents and doctors to correct mistakes God makes. Why not the patients and doctors?

Edited April 5, 2016 by thesometimesaint

[Wanderer7]

6 hours ago, CMZ said:

A quick search on the subject turns up some interesting material, such as the site at http://ldsgender.com

The general authority mentioned here is not named, which makes it questionable to begin with, and at the end of the article it says:

"NOTE: The temple sealing mentioned here has not been substantiated."

That being said, if a person seeking an elective transgender surgery/a transgender person wants to be married in the temple, that's between them and the first presidency. However, that's an exception to the rule, and one of which I am not certain is a reality.

6 hours ago, thesometimesaint said:

There is no theological support for a great number of things. It isn't a good idea to fly down that path. So we allow parents and doctors to correct mistakes God makes. Why not the patients and doctors?

I'm not quite clear on what you mean. Yes. There is no theological support for lots of things...?

In terms of "God's mistakes," we are dealing with two very different concepts. One is intersex. Intersex is when a person is born with either aberrent genetics or a malfunction of the differentiation process. This would be obvious at birth and would necessitate an immediate decision unless you want your child to grow up with ambiguous anatomy. These are the "mistakes" you refer to (although I'm sure such individuals wold agree that they are not mistakes).

The other issue is transgenderism, and it is completely different (as I mentioned in a previous post, most intersex people do not have issues with gender identity). In that case, a person with normal anatomy for their genetics decides they want to be something they are not. There is no mistake that has been made by God. This is where the church has been very clear that such a decision disqualifies a person for temple and priesthood blessings. There is no theological ambiguity, despite the claims to the contrary.

 

 

[sunstoned]

On 4/1/2016 at 8:22 PM, VideoGameJunkie said:

Spencer W Kimball was pretty clear he was against people changing genders. And so is the Family a proclamation. It says gender is eternal. Both are prophets speaking. I don't see how transgenders can answer to that.

BY was pretty clear on race, priesthood, and mixed race marriages.  So were many other prophets, including SWK. They were prophets and they were speaking.  Now they have been disavowed. It seems pretty clear that prophets are just men speaking their opinions.  It is also clear from history that the church will do what it needs to do to survive, and right now that means following Kirton McConkie.  But this will change.

Edited April 5, 2016 by sunstoned

[JLHPROF]

13 minutes ago, sunstoned said:

BY was pretty clear on race, priesthood, and mixed race marriages.  So were many other prophets, including SWK. They were prophets and they were speaking.  Now they have been disavowed. It seems pretty clear that prophets are just men speaking their opinions.  It is also clear from history that the church will do what it needs to do to survive, and right now that means following Kirton McConkie.  But this will change.

Of course things will change - the world continues to become more and more wicked.

[Gray]

15 hours ago, Wanderer7 said:

Actually there aren't many topics on which the brethren have been clearer. As Elder Christofferson stated:

"There shouldn’t be a perception or an expectation that the Church’s doctrines or position have changed or are changing. It’s simply not true, and we want youth and all people to understand that. The doctrines that relate to human sexuality and gender are really central to our theology."

Central to our theology.

To say that since there might be a chance that the process can get messed up, so therefore we should allow gender reassignment is kind of like saying it's ok to commit violent crime if you are born with an inkling to do so simply because you feel it's part of your divine identity.

The policies on transgendered people exist in a vacuum. They're not based in scripture or modern revelation. They originate from the handbook, seemingly a reaction to an issue not well understood by church leaders. 

 

15 hours ago, Wanderer7 said:

In terms of personal revelation regarding gender... I suppose I can't tell someone what revelation they should be receiving. However, unless and until the brethren receive a contrary revelation to what they've already received, I would be very, very wary of anyone claiming to have received a revelation telling them to get a gender reassignment. In my experience, personal revelation doesn't contradict prophetic revelation often... If ever.

If that's the case, then personal revelation must not mean anything, if it can't be relied upon for true answers. 

15 hours ago, Wanderer7 said:

And regarding the "scientific evidence" that gender reassignment increases people's sense of "well-being..." Certain prescription pain killers increase some people's sense of well-being. That's scientifically undisputed. But I'm not going to start doling out narcotics just to make people feel what they want to feel.

Doling out pain killers in absence of pain is not a legitimate therapy. But gender reassignment surgery is, in the right circumstances. Just as pain killers are appropriate, in the right circumstances. 

[Thinking]

On 4/1/2016 at 7:27 PM, The Nehor said:

As to being authentic: if I was authentic to every desire that entered my mind I would probably be something like a combination of Doctor Horrible, Daffy Duck, and Caligula and would probably be locked away and possibly on death row.

I'll inform Walmart to take the gender reassignment packages off the impulse racks near the registers.

On 4/1/2016 at 7:27 PM, The Nehor said:

Some things we just have to live with without expressing.

It's easy for those who are comfortable in their own gender to tell those who aren't to just live with it.

[The Nehor]

26 minutes ago, Thinking said:

I'll inform Walmart to take the gender reassignment packages off the impulse racks near the registers.

It's easy for those who are comfortable in their own gender to tell those who aren't to just live with it.

Not as easy as it is for you to make snide comments about it. We all feel your pain okay. I mean who did not go through a cross dressing phase?

[thesometimesaint]

4 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Not as easy as it is for you to make snide comments about it. We all feel your pain okay. I mean who did not go through a cross dressing phase?

Cross dressing is not gender.

[The Nehor]

1 minute ago, thesometimesaint said:

Cross dressing is not gender.

I know, I am being ironically stupid. I spend so much time being genuinely stupid that it can be hard to tell the difference.

[mtomm]

On 4/2/2016 at 1:25 PM, carbon dioxide said:

My niece married a guy who was born with 6 fingers on both hands and 6 toes on both feet.  Those extra fingers and toes were removed when he was a baby.  Genetic issues exist but one deals with it and moves on.  They don't try to get the rest of the world to change their views.  If a guy wants to identify himself as a woman I am fine with it.  He can wear a dress, change his name, ect.  He just better not expect me to accept him as a woman.  I am not obligated to play a supporting role in fantasy role play of another.

If it was no big deal then why didn't they just leave those extra fingers and toes? Didn't God make him that way? Maybe there was some other purpose for him to have those and it was wrong to have them removed. Why is he pretending to be something different than the way he was born? 

[thesometimesaint]

36 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I know, I am being ironically stupid. I spend so much time being genuinely stupid that it can be hard to tell the difference.

Unfortunately I fall victim to my own stupidity all too often myself.

[JLHPROF]

14 minutes ago, mtomm said:

If it was no big deal then why didn't they just leave those extra fingers and toes? Didn't God make him that way? Maybe there was some other purpose for him to have those and it was wrong to have them removed. Why is he pretending to be something different than the way he was born?

That opens the question - can biological gender be a defect?
Can God actually send a male spirit to a female body or vice versa?

Because that is what we are talking about here.  Extra fingers and toes are obviously a defect from the design.  Can a perfectly healthy man be biologically defective because he "feels" he should be a woman?

[thesometimesaint]

1 minute ago, JLHPROF said:

That opens the question - can biological gender be a defect?
Can God actually send a male spirit to a female body or vice versa?

Because that is what we are talking about here.  Extra fingers and toes are obviously a defect from the design.  Can a perfectly healthy man be biologically defective because he "feels" he should be a woman?

Gender is not sex.

If we're going to attribute such to God then yes he does. Myself, I believe we live in a fallen world and are subject to all of the conditions here. I don't know what you mean by "perfectly healthy".

 

 

[Thinking]

56 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Not as easy as it is for you to make snide comments about it.

Just following your lead - you know, Daffy Duck and all...

56 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

We all feel your pain okay. I mean who did not go through a cross dressing phase?

There you go with the snide again. As the father of a gay son who is trying to be active LDS, I can tell you that this subject is very serious to me. I have told my son that I am not going to judge him because I really can't understand what he is going through. He is trying to find his place in a world that tells him that he is a mistake. You act like the decisions that the members of the LGBT community make are just whims that they get from here or there. I confess that I used to have some of those sentiments until I started noticing that my son was different (not a mistake). The tears and thoughts of suicide are real and painful, and playing dress-up with your sisters when you were 9 doesn't compare to the pain that somebody is feeling who can't find their place in this world.

[JLHPROF]

4 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said:

Gender is not sex.

Call it whatever you like.  But in the end male spirit/male body and female spirit/female body.  Doesn't matter how mortal designations are applied.

Quote

If we're going to attribute such to God then yes he does. Myself, I believe we live in a fallen world and are subject to all of the conditions here. I don't know what you mean by "perfectly healthy".

No, I don't believe for a second that God does this.
And when the resurrection comes I believe that original physical biological gender will be restored.  I don't for a second see a man with silicone breast implants being resurrected with breasts.  Whether we are male or female is eternal, no matter what cosmetic changes we attempt to apply here.
 

[mtomm]

16 minutes ago, Thinking said:

Just following your lead - you know, Daffy Duck and all...

There you go with the snide again. As the father of a gay son who is trying to be active LDS, I can tell you that this subject is very serious to me. I have told my son that I am not going to judge him because I really can't understand what he is going through. He is trying to find his place in a world that tells him that he is a mistake. You act like the decisions that the members of the LGBT community make are just whims that they get from here or there. I confess that I used to have some of those sentiments until I started noticing that my son was different (not a mistake). The tears and thoughts of suicide are real and painful, and playing dress-up with your sisters when you were 9 doesn't compare to the pain that somebody is feeling who can't find their place in this world.

There is a place for him in my big tent of Mormonism! There is way too much work in this church to be excluding those who want to belong.