Transgender members of the Church

[Rock_N_Roll]

1 hour ago, rpn said:

 Mortals cannot possibly know what the spirit gender is  on earth (except by specific direct revelation, and then you have to identify who has the stewardship to receive such inspiration?   Parents who decide for kiddo?  Only kiddo?  Other?

So, why not have a Patriarch give them a blessing and tell them what gender their spirit is?  They are able to tell us what tribe we belong to. 

[carbon dioxide]

5 hours ago, thesometimesaint said:

If a male wears a dress what is his gender?

SEE http://www.differio.com/clothing/bottoms/overalls-kilts/denim-kilt.html

If a female wears pants what is her gender?

SEE http://shop.nordstrom.com/c/womens-pants

One does not change their gender by what they wear.  If I put on a bra, I am still a guy even though I may be a little messed up in the head.

[JAHS]

3 hours ago, Rock_N_Roll said:

So, why not have a Patriarch give them a blessing and tell them what gender their spirit is?  They are able to tell us what tribe we belong to. 

But declared lineages in a patriarchal blessing might be literal or adoptive. I don't think one would want to be adopted into a gender. 

[rpn]

The other problem is that patriarchs have keys to declare lineage, but not to declare gender.  Again there is the stewardship thing.

[carbon dioxide]

3 hours ago, rpn said:

The other problem is that patriarchs have keys to declare lineage, but not to declare gender.  Again there is the stewardship thing.

Declaring gender would be on the same level as them declaring to a naturally blond girl that the girl is blond.  I don't think the purpose of such blessings is to point out the obvious.

[Stargazer]

On 3/31/2016 at 0:28 PM, Jim Stiles said:

Agreed.  Gavin McInnes has an article on Takimag where he makes this assertion as well.

Rep point given for mention of Gavin McInnes!

[why me]

On 31.3.2016 at 7:51 PM, Sky said:

With all the discussion we have been having about LGBT issues and Mormonism, I've been wondering lately about the "T" in LGBT, though their numbers may be few.    

I'm wondering what we honestly have to offer for people that feel that they were born into the wrong gender.  Gender reassignment surgery, last I checked, can prevent these members from having a Temple Recommend and may also subject them to Church discipline.  Dressing as the opposite gender from what you were born is discouraged in our culture.    

Is the solution psychological counseling with the hope that they will eventually conform to their biological gender?  What if that doesn't work?  What if the only way for them to feel like they can live an authentic life is to make the transition?     

What do we do?  It must be a heavy, confusing burden to bear, indeed!     

I think that many 'conservative' churches will have a problem. I don't think that the catholic church has that much of a different stance than the lds church on this issue. However, for the lds church the matter is just a little more serious since the lds has the notion of a temple marriage. How does a transgender person figure in to a temple marriage? One would have to conclude that our heavenly parents made a mistake by having a woman in a man's body or a man in a woman's body since we are all spirit children of heavenly parents. 

In terms of an authentic life....I think that since the advent of postmodernity and the stress on identity rights does create problems for a meganarrative such as mormonism or catholicism which do have metanarrative truth claims. And when human technology seems to trump religious creation claims.

[thesometimesaint]

18 hours ago, carbon dioxide said:

One does not change their gender by what they wear.  If I put on a bra, I am still a guy even though I may be a little messed up in the head.

Gender is not sex. Sex is sex.

Bras are made for men too.

SEE https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Male_bra

[thesometimesaint]

13 hours ago, why me said:

I think that many 'conservative' churches will have a problem. I don't think that the catholic church has that much of a different stance than the lds church on this issue. However, for the lds church the matter is just a little more serious since the lds has the notion of a temple marriage. How does a transgender person figure in to a temple marriage? One would have to conclude that our heavenly parents made a mistake by having a woman in a man's body or a man in a woman's body since we are all spirit children of heavenly parents. 

In terms of an authentic life....I think that since the advent of postmodernity and the stress on identity rights does create problems for a meganarrative such as mormonism or catholicism which do have metanarrative truth claims. And when human technology seems to trump religious creation claims.

I don't attribute mental, genetic, earthly physical appearance "mistakes" to God. We live in a fallen word and are subject to all those failures.

[why me]

7 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said:

I don't attribute mental, genetic, earthly physical appearance "mistakes" to God. We live in a fallen word and are subject to all those failures.

I think that we need to understand that when asked most transgenders answer that they were born with the wrong sex. They are either men in a women's body or a women in a men's body. Thus, they have a gender change. This would seem to make it our heavenly parents mistake if taken literally. If it wasn't a mistake, then the problem is elsewhere and if so, what should the church do? Society today basically only seems to accept unconditionally their changed identity is the only solution.

[carbon dioxide]

1 hour ago, thesometimesaint said:

Gender is not sex. Sex is sex.

Bras are made for men too.

SEE https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Male_bra

Sex is sex.  Male is male and female is female.  Male is not female because male thinks he is a female.  Female is not male because female thinks she is a male.  Bruce Jenner is still a male regardless of what he wears, what medical procedures he has and whether he gets a legal name change.  Still a dude after all of it.  It is sort of like a guy who strips his old Pontiac Fiero and puts a new body on it that resembles a Ferrari.  He can make his Fiero look somewhat like a Ferrari. He can even put the prancing horse badge on it but everyone knows it is not a Ferrari.  It just a Fiero pretending to be something it is not.

Edited April 2, 2016 by carbon dioxide

[thesometimesaint]

14 minutes ago, why me said:

I think that we need to understand that when asked most transgenders answer that they were born with the wrong sex. They are either men in a women's body or a women in a men's body. Thus, they have a gender change. This would seem to make it our heavenly parents mistake if taken literally. If it wasn't a mistake, then the problem is elsewhere and if so, what should the church do? Society today basically only seems to accept unconditionally their changed identity is the only solution.

They are not changing their identity just the physical appearance of that identity. Is God responsible for the person born with 6 fingers on one hand? What should the Church do about the person born with 6 fingers on one hand? 

[thesometimesaint]

13 minutes ago, carbon dioxide said:

Sex is sex.  Male is male and female is female.  Male is not female because male thinks he is a female.  Female is not male because female thinks she is a male.  Bruce Jenner is still a male regardless of what he wears, what medical procedures he has and whether he gets a legal name change.  Still a dude after all of it

Gender is not sex.

SEE https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender

[carbon dioxide]

1 hour ago, thesometimesaint said:

They are not changing their identity just the physical appearance of that identity. Is God responsible for the person born with 6 fingers on one hand? What should the Church do about the person born with 6 fingers on one hand? 

My niece married a guy who was born with 6 fingers on both hands and 6 toes on both feet.  Those extra fingers and toes were removed when he was a baby.  Genetic issues exist but one deals with it and moves on.  They don't try to get the rest of the world to change their views.  If a guy wants to identify himself as a woman I am fine with it.  He can wear a dress, change his name, ect.  He just better not expect me to accept him as a woman.  I am not obligated to play a supporting role in fantasy role play of another.

[thesometimesaint]

10 minutes ago, carbon dioxide said:

My niece married a guy who was born with 6 fingers on both hands and 6 toes on both feet.  Those extra fingers and toes were removed when he was a baby.  Genetic issues exist but one deals with it and moves on.  They don't try to get the rest of the world to change their views.  If a guy wants to identify himself as a woman I am fine with it.  He can wear a dress, change his name, ect.  He just better not expect me to accept him as a woman.  I am not obligated to play a supporting role in fantasy role play of another.

OK, and so what? Did God make a mistake in giving him those extra digits? It is not a question of your acceptance or not. They are not seeking your acceptance. If you mistreat anyone it is your fault not theirs.

[carbon dioxide]

1 hour ago, thesometimesaint said:

OK, and so what? Did God make a mistake in giving him those extra digits? It is not a question of your acceptance or not. They are not seeking your acceptance. If you mistreat anyone it is your fault not theirs.

I don't hold a view that God is actively guiding the developmental process of every human being.  God created Adam and Eve and set up the basic functions of their bodies, ect and let the process run naturally after that.  In this fallen world, things happen.  I have blue eyes.  I really don't think God cared about whether my eyes were blue or brown in this world.  It does not matter to God.  Whether my brother in law was born with some extra digits really does not matter.  My niece said she has a 50% chance of her kids having an extra digit based on her husband history.  Does it bother her?  Of course not.  The purpose of life is to play the hand we are given the best we can. 

I agree I will not mistreat a transgender person (unless they go into the wrong bathroom) and then I will voice something.  I will leave the transgender person alone.  If I see one walk down the street, I will ignore them.  But will I call Bruce Jenner by the name of Cait because that is what he wants to be called.  NO.  He is Bruce to me.

[thesometimesaint]

Why is gender not subject to same imperfections as any other trait?

Why?  I've been in nonspecific sex bathrooms. You close the door end of story. Every flown on an airplane?

Why would you want to call someone by any name other than what they wanted? That is rather disrespectful thing to do.

[pcarthew]

On 3/31/2016 at 3:51 AM, Sky said:

With all the discussion we have been having about LGBT issues and Mormonism, I've been wondering lately about the "T" in LGBT, though their numbers may be few.    

I'm wondering what we honestly have to offer for people that feel that they were born into the wrong gender.  Gender reassignment surgery, last I checked, can prevent these members from having a Temple Recommend and may also subject them to Church discipline.  Dressing as the opposite gender from what you were born is discouraged in our culture.    

Is the solution psychological counseling with the hope that they will eventually conform to their biological gender?  What if that doesn't work?  What if the only way for them to feel like they can live an authentic life is to make the transition?     

What do we do?  It must be a heavy, confusing burden to bear, indeed!     

This is a deep and complex issue.  The church takes and extremely dim view on those who have surgery for gender reassignment.  It is a violation of nature.  God did not get it wrong with an individual person's sexuality.  This is such a rarity in the world let alone the church it is not worth worrying about.  Leave it up to Bishops, Stake Presidents and  the brethren.  Transgenders as a group have the highest rate of mental illness per capita. We can't violate God's will and have lasting happiness.  You cannot hold a temple recommend if you have had gender reassignment under any circumstances, you cannot hold a calling either.

[thesometimesaint]

15 minutes ago, pcarthew said:

This is a deep and complex issue.  The church takes and extremely dim view on those who have surgery for gender reassignment.  It is a violation of nature.  God did not get it wrong with an individual person's sexuality.  This is such a rarity in the world let alone the church it is not worth worrying about.  Leave it up to Bishops, Stake Presidents and  the brethren.  Transgenders as a group have the highest rate of mental illness per capita. We can't violate God's will and have lasting happiness.  You cannot hold a temple recommend if you have had gender reassignment under any circumstances, you cannot hold a calling either.

What nature is that?

Why not, he seems to get it wrong sometimes on every other physical and mental trait? 

Such was done to our black brothers and sisters. Maybe we shouldn't be so quick to judge others.

[Gray]

27 minutes ago, pcarthew said:

This is a deep and complex issue.  The church takes and extremely dim view on those who have surgery for gender reassignment.  It is a violation of nature.  God did not get it wrong with an individual person's sexuality.  This is such a rarity in the world let alone the church it is not worth worrying about.  Leave it up to Bishops, Stake Presidents and  the brethren.  Transgenders as a group have the highest rate of mental illness per capita. We can't violate God's will and have lasting happiness.  You cannot hold a temple recommend if you have had gender reassignment under any circumstances, you cannot hold a calling either.

That's quite an assumption, given the wide array of birth defects that occur in nature. But just in this one area, everything turns out exactly as it's supposed to?

Edited April 4, 2016 by Gray

[Wanderer7]

There are a few cases where children are born with ambiguous genitalia or both male and female parts. In those cases, physicians and parents make the best choice they can. The church is not against this type of gender assignment as far as I am aware. However, in those cases, these children present that way at birth. There is no significant scientific data that I'm aware of that suggests that anyone else with a Y chromosome is actually a female or that someone without one is actually a male. To believe you are and attempt gender reassignment is not warranted scientifically or theologically. Further,  to argue we can be born a male but actually be a female without ambiguous presentation at birth is blatant speculation. In cases of obvious ambiguity, we are to leave the eternal implications up to the Lord in faith. In all other cases, we are to assume our roles on earth whether we like our gender or not. The fact that medicine has invested time and money into adult gender reassignment to fix "emotional suffering" while people truly suffer with real illnesses sickens me (no pun intended). Therefore there is no place in the church for transgenderism any more than there is for adultery, abortion, or other gross sins. I apologize if that sounds harsh, but the Lord will have a pure people. 

[Gray]

10 minutes ago, Wanderer7 said:

There are a few cases where children are born with ambiguous genitalia or both male and female parts. In those cases, physicians and parents make the best choice they can. The church is not against this type of gender assignment as far as I am aware. However, in those cases, these children present that way at birth. There is no significant scientific data that I'm aware of that suggests that anyone else with a Y chromosome is actually a female or that someone without one is actually a male. To believe you are and attempt gender reassignment is not warranted scientifically or theologically. Further,  to argue we can be born a male but actually be a female without ambiguous presentation at birth is blatant speculation. In cases of obvious ambiguity, we are to leave the eternal implications up to the Lord in faith. In all other cases, we are to assume our roles on earth whether we like our gender or not. The fact that medicine has invested time and money into adult gender reassignment to fix "emotional suffering" while people truly suffer with real illnesses sickens me (no pun intended). Therefore there is no place in the church for transgenderism any more than there is for adultery, abortion, or other gross sins. I apologize if that sounds harsh, but the Lord will have a pure people. 

The assumptions here are big enough to drive a truck through. 

[The Nehor]

On April 2, 2016 at 2:21 PM, thesometimesaint said:

Gender is not sex.

SEE https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender

A bunch of academics with too much time on their hands writing hair-splitting papers about the differences does not convince me.

[thesometimesaint]

4 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

A bunch of academics with too much time on their hands writing hair-splitting papers about the differences does not convince me.

True, but irrelevant. Mormon Doctrine by Bruce R. McConkie is the only resource we need.

[The Nehor]

Just now, thesometimesaint said:

True, but irrelevant. Mormon Doctrine by Bruce R. McConkie is the only resource we need.

 

Just now, thesometimesaint said:

True, but irrelevant. Mormon Doctrine by Bruce R. McConkie is the only resource we need.

Oddly, my family and some family friends got that book down yesterday after conference and had a good laugh.