San Bernardino Tragedy and God

[Broker]

I live and work in San Bernardino County. I've been thinking a lot, as have many others, about attack that took place there this week. I'm sorting out feelings and trying to reconcile what happened with my religious beliefs. Gratefully, a member of our ward who was attending the party, was unharmed. That also means the topic is far too sensitive to talk about with ward members. So I'd like some opinions and feedback on these thoughts (nothing new, the same thing we always struggle with when these things happen):

God did not cause this tragedy to occur, but He did allow it to take place. He could have prevented it, but He did not. He most likely protected some of the people, but others He allowed to be killed.

If God is aware of the sparrow's fall, He is certainly aware of the heartache and hardships that would result if He did not intervene. I think God made decisions about each person that was killed - that they and those who would be left behind to mourn, would be better off, in an eternal perspective,  by going through that particular experience. 

To say that things of this nature and eternal significance just happen because two wicked people decide to exercise their free agency doesn't make any sense to me. I don't think anything significant happens to good people on earth without God's knowledge and permission.

What do you think ?

 

 

 

 

[Stargazer]

22 minutes ago, Broker said:

I live and work in San Bernardino County. I've been thinking a lot, as have many others, about attack that took place there this week. I'm sorting out feelings and trying to reconcile what happened with my religious beliefs. Gratefully, a member of our ward who was attending the party, was unharmed. That also means the topic is far too sensitive to talk about with ward members. So I'd like some opinions and feedback on these thoughts (nothing new, the same thing we always struggle with when these things happen):

God did not cause this tragedy to occur, but He did allow it to take place. He could have prevented it, but He did not. He most likely protected some of the people, but others He allowed to be killed.

If God is aware of the sparrow's fall, He is certainly aware of the heartache and hardships that would result if He did not intervene. I think God made decisions about each person that was killed - that they and those who would be left behind to mourn, would be better off, in an eternal perspective,  by going through that particular experience. 

To say that things of this nature and eternal significance just happen because two wicked people decide to exercise their free agency doesn't make any sense to me. I don't think anything significant happens to good people on earth without God's knowledge and permission.

What do you think ?

Why should God have prevented it?  Can you think of a good reason for God to step in and prevent all people from dying in events such as this, automobile accidents, sudden unexpected heart attacks, cancer, Ebola, airplane crashes, ISIL beheadings, falls from mountain peaks while attempting to scale them, and so on, letting us all live until we hit 100 years old exactly?  Why should God require us to go through trials when he could smooth the road entirely out so NOTHING unpleasant would happen to us?  

And that sounds suspiciously like the plan that Lucifer proposed, that he would save all of us, and none would be lost.  Because none of us would be permitted to deviate from righteousness.  And in the end, none would be righteous because nobody would have had any choice in the matter.

My wife died due to cancer 2 1/2 months ago.  I prayed and asked Him to cure her, and when she asked for one, I gave her a blessing to that effect, conditioned upon her faith and the will of God.  This was something that she accepted, and faced her last six months with great courage and determination.  It was hard for her, physically, emotionally, and spiritually, but she triumphed.  She didn't just squeak through, she overcame, and she overcame at every level.  It was hard for me, too.  Not physically, but I'm still dealing with the emotional and spiritual challenges of her fight.  I did not want her to go through this experience -- I wanted the cup to pass from her! -- but I would not now take it from her for the sake of anything.  Because in the end, though death took her, she was and is victorious over death through her faith in the Atonement and Resurrection of Jesus Christ.

I should also like to point out that my wife's victory is mine as well.  I loved her for 35 years, but her cancer and her fight against it deepened our love for each other beyond any boundaries I can see.  Like I say, I still hurt, and I will hurt until I die and am reunited with her, but if we had been denied the battle, and if our road had been smoothed out, we would have lost enormously.  Yes, some couples are blessed to live out their lives in good health until brief illnesses or quick accidents with limited suffering cap a long life together, and I do not begrudge them that blessing.  But without the trials that we all go through we are the celestial equivalent to those rich kids born with silver spoons in their mouths, who never know what the world is, really.

As for me and my house, we choose the roads that God chooses for us, be they variously rough.

We are all mayflies who are here temporarily, some longer than others.  All of us suffer from one thing or another, but all of us come to an end.  If there is no God, and if there is no purpose to this very temporary life, then the ultimate outcome is utterly obscene.  Having burst upon the scene in all our beauty of mind and body, wouldn't it be an utter waste for us to go out like a candle, never to rise again?  Regardless of what happens to us while here.

As "To say that things of this nature... just happen because two wicked people decide to exercise their free agency doesn't make any sense to me," you've got to be kidding, right?  If there were no free agency, nothing like this would happen, and those of us who would have been called up to experience these things would be robbed of our birthrights.  I suggest you read Alma 19:11-12.  Whether you understand it or not, God permits the wicked to go the distance with their wickedness, just as you are permitted to go the distance with your righteousness, and if He were to deny the wicked their agency, He would have to deny you of yours, simply because IT IS YOUR CHOICE TO BE EITHER GOOD OR EVIL.  Have you ever read 1st or 2nd Nephi?  It's spelled out very clearly.  And if it is hard to understand, then it is clear that sincere prayer is needed.

[VideoGameJunkie]

If you watched the movie Cokeville Miracle, you will see that God prevented any of those children from dying. But many were killed in the Sandy Hook tragedy. We don't know why God sends angels to save some and lets others get gunned down.

[Nevo]

30 minutes ago, Broker said:

I think God made decisions about each person that was killed - that they and those who would be left behind to mourn, would be better off, in an eternal perspective,  by going through that particular experience.

I don't agree with idea that "everything happens for a reason." It can be reassuring to think that God is absolutely sovereign and is controlling all of the outcomes behind the scenes, deciding who lives and who dies, but I am not convinced that that is actually the case. I think God can bring good out of evil but I'd prefer not to see him as guiding the shooters' rifles. I'd like to think that the responsibility for the massacre falls squarely on the perpetrators and isn't some mysterious outworking of God's will. But that said, there are plenty of scriptures that support your view of an active guiding Providence directing all things.

 

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, Broker said:

I live and work in San Bernardino County. I've been thinking a lot, as have many others, about attack that took place there this week. I'm sorting out feelings and trying to reconcile what happened with my religious beliefs. Gratefully, a member of our ward who was attending the party, was unharmed. That also means the topic is far too sensitive to talk about with ward members. So I'd like some opinions and feedback on these thoughts (nothing new, the same thing we always struggle with when these things happen):

God did not cause this tragedy to occur, but He did allow it to take place. He could have prevented it, but He did not. He most likely protected some of the people, but others He allowed to be killed.

If God is aware of the sparrow's fall, He is certainly aware of the heartache and hardships that would result if He did not intervene. I think God made decisions about each person that was killed - that they and those who would be left behind to mourn, would be better off, in an eternal perspective,  by going through that particular experience. 

To say that things of this nature and eternal significance just happen because two wicked people decide to exercise their free agency doesn't make any sense to me. I don't think anything significant happens to good people on earth without God's knowledge and permission.

What do you think ?

 

 

 

 

I agree with you. I don't think that anything happens without God's permission. 

I believe that God is ultimately in control. 

[Scott Lloyd]

32 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

Why should God have prevented it?  Can you think of a good reason for God to step in and prevent all people from dying in events such as this, automobile accidents, sudden unexpected heart attacks, cancer, Ebola, airplane crashes, ISIL beheadings, falls from mountain peaks while attempting to scale them, and so on, letting us all live until we hit 100 years old exactly?  Why should God require us to go through trials when he could smooth the road entirely out so NOTHING unpleasant would happen to us?  

And that sounds suspiciously like the plan that Lucifer proposed, that he would save all of us, and none would be lost.  Because none of us would be permitted to deviate from righteousness.  And in the end, none would be righteous because nobody would have had any choice in the matter.

My wife died due to cancer 2 1/2 months ago.  I prayed and asked Him to cure her, and when she asked for one, I gave her a blessing to that effect, conditioned upon her faith and the will of God.  This was something that she accepted, and faced her last six months with great courage and determination.  It was hard for her, physically, emotionally, and spiritually, but she triumphed.  She didn't just squeak through, she overcame, and she overcame at every level.  It was hard for me, too.  Not physically, but I'm still dealing with the emotional and spiritual challenges of her fight.  I did not want her to go through this experience -- I wanted the cup to pass from her! -- but I would not now take it from her for the sake of anything.  Because in the end, though death took her, she was and is victorious over death through her faith in the Atonement and Resurrection of Jesus Christ.

I should also like to point out that my wife's victory is mine as well.  I loved her for 35 years, but her cancer and her fight against it deepened our love for each other beyond any boundaries I can see.  Like I say, I still hurt, and I will hurt until I die and am reunited with her, but if we had been denied the battle, and if our road had been smoothed out, we would have lost enormously.  Yes, some couples are blessed to live out their lives in good health until brief illnesses or quick accidents with limited suffering cap a long life together, and I do not begrudge them that blessing.  But without the trials that we all go through we are the celestial equivalent to those rich kids born with silver spoons in their mouths, who never know what the world is, really.

As for me and my house, we choose the roads that God chooses for us, be they variously rough.

We are all mayflies who are here temporarily, some longer than others.  All of us suffer from one thing or another, but all of us come to an end.  If there is no God, and if there is no purpose to this very temporary life, then the ultimate outcome is utterly obscene.  Having burst upon the scene in all our beauty of mind and body, wouldn't it be an utter waste for us to go out like a candle, never to rise again?  Regardless of what happens to us while here.

As "To say that things of this nature... just happen because two wicked people decide to exercise their free agency doesn't make any sense to me," you've got to be kidding, right?  If there were no free agency, nothing like this would happen, and those of us who would have been called up to experience these things would be robbed of our birthrights.  I suggest you read Alma 19:11-12.  Whether you understand it or not, God permits the wicked to go the distance with their wickedness, just as you are permitted to go the distance with your righteousness, and if He were to deny the wicked their agency, He would have to deny you of yours, simply because IT IS YOUR CHOICE TO BE EITHER GOOD OR EVIL.  Have you ever read 1st or 2nd Nephi?  It's spelled out very clearly.  And if it is hard to understand, then it is clear that sincere prayer is needed.

This is beautiful, Stargazer. And enhanced by the authenticity of your personal experience. Thank you.  

I went to the temple today. Something that I heard in the endowment ceremony, that I have heard many times before, had particular meaning for me today and is consistent with what you've said here. I'm guessing you probably know what it is. 

Edited December 6, 2015 by Scott Lloyd

[Duncan]

In this case I think God would like for man to do something to prevent it and maybe he will hold those who could have done something accountable. God can stop stuff but he wants us to learn how do it so we can grow to be like him

[Teancum]

The problem of reconciling evil and suffering with a loving caring God is a very difficult issue and one many people from religious sages, to prophets and apostles and various philosophers, skeptics, agnostics and atheist have been wrangling with as long as we have been able to be intelligent enough to question these things.   I suppose there are varying opinions here on this issue and not likely would there be agreement for some.

For me personally the problem of evil and suffering challenges my faith like no other.  In some ideas I find comfort for part of the question but not all.  And for much of the question for me a loving God, at least the one I was taught about in the LDS church and in Christian ideals (excluding the God of the Cavlinist slant who I believe is a monster) it is irreconcilable.

As for this specific issue it is to raw and tender along with all the other horrific acts of terror and random shootings of late for me to make an argument for or against religious answers or to make political ones.  It bothers me that in our instant all the to time news cycle and social media we just can't shut up for a while from making a platform for our own opinions and views.

So other than this post while I do have lots of thoughts on the issue I will leave it alone for now.

Stargazer, peace and prayers to you in your loss.  I think the death of someone close to us can be one of the hardest trials we face.  I too have experienced great untimely losses of some close to me. Though I do not know you I do understand the pain and grief you are experiencing and I will mourn with you this evening.   

[Broker]

 

Stargazer-

I certainly didn't want to re-open painful memories for you or anyone else. These subjects are nearly impossible to discuss without a lot of emotion.

You stated:

"Whether you understand it or not, God permits the wicked to go the distance with their wickedness, just as you are permitted to go the distance with your righteousness, and if He were to deny the wicked their agency, He would have to deny you of yours, simply because IT IS YOUR CHOICE TO BE EITHER GOOD OR EVIL."

I think I would disagree with this. The Lord preserved the life of Joseph Smith till his mission was complete and even stated that He had set bounds that his enemies would not be permitted to cross.  I personally believe that prophets of the church are protected from those who would harm them until they can fulfill their missions.

Elder Dallin H. Oaks spoke in our Sacrament Meeting many years ago. His talk clarified the difference between Free Agency- the freedom to make choices, and Freedom- the freedom to carry out choices. I think that God preserves our Free Agency to choose good or evil, but reserves the right to restrict our freedom to act on those choices. The Egyptians chose to destroy Moses and the Children of Israel - however God restricted their freedom to carry out their choices with fire and with the parting of the Red Sea.

 

 

[JeremyOrbe-Smith]

If a God can prevent pain, suffering, and death, yet chooses not to, that is an evil God. If an omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent God creates all things from nothing - including individual souls, bodies, and the possibility that they will experience pain and death - then that God is the author of all evil, and does, in fact, cause these tragedies to occur. If God is all-powerful, then for Him to play favorites and save some people while letting others suffer and die would be monstrous; to "allow" some people to be killed if you have "ultimate control" and the ability to turn them all from mortality to immortality in a twinkling of the eye is to be complicit in their murders. If God is all-powerful and nothing happens except with His permission, if He could magic all the pain away in two seconds, then for Him not to do so right now would make Him the Devil. 

 

Thankfully, I don't think such a totalitarian nightmare of a God actually exists, though He seems to be the only kind that most mainstream theologians think  worth defending. The only way out for theism is if God did not create all things from nothing, and is limited to a specific time and space. If all intelligences are eternal, and God finds Himself in their midst, then trials and tragedies like these are just sort of inherent to reality as a part of an ever-evolving natural world - they are not God's will, they merely "come to pass". We can become closer to each other by empathizing during suffering and serving each other intimately, but our ability to make the best of bad situations and find whatever small glimmers of goodness we can in the darkness does not justify God inflicting such horrendous suffering upon His fellow intelligences. 

 

To me, the freewill defense just doesn't work. I think what makes an intention (and subsequent action) good or evil is the effect it has on others; for God to "permit" people to be evil -- that is, to harm others -- would be to become complicit in their crime. The only way to preserve the idea of a Just God is to say that God does not permit people to do evil, and yet He is powerless to stop them. He not only would not influence others except through persuasion and longsuffering, at the end of the day He cannot, because all intelligences are coequal and coeternal with His. 

 

We make far too many unjustified causal leaps when we assume that if the swerving bus doesn't hit us or we got on a different airplane than the one that goes down it is somehow because someone out there is "protecting" us. When I hear such stories, I cannot see that there is any causal connection between the two; if God has the power to save the person who didn't get on the plane, then why doesn't He just save the entire plane? If God saves one person from a disease (rather rudely taking the credit away from the doctor who was actually physically present during treatment), then why doesn't He just save everyone from disease? It makes no sense. Either God is omnipotent or He isn't. If He is, then the existence of pain and suffering and death is His fault, and He is, in effect, Satan. If He isn't, and He has a limited sphere of influence, then we're all in this together. All He can do is weep for our violence and mourn with those who mourn and do His best to gather His fellow coexistent intelligences back home to the islands of hope they co-create out of peace and light. 

Edited December 6, 2015 by JeremyOrbe-Smith

[The Nehor]

Most of the things we consider most horrible are people escaping this horrible world and moving beyond these pains. I do not pity the child who dies in senseless violence. They are safe. We hurt for our loss of them and I weep when a child or adult I love leaves this world but they are okay.

We consider birth a thing of beauty even though it begins the trial and harrowing of a soul.

There is the possibility that our values are inverted and that death is something to celebrate while birth is a solemn occasion and the beginning of pain for an immortal being experiencing how bad existence can be. I don't think we should start holding wakes when children are born and throw parades when people die but we might be viewing the whole thing wrong. Those who suffer most are probably the ones still here.

[Stargazer]

4 hours ago, Duncan said:

In this case I think God would like for man to do something to prevent it and maybe he will hold those who could have done something accountable. God can stop stuff but he wants us to learn how do it so we can grow to be like him

Well, you might want to try to prevent things like this, but how do you propose to do it?  I don't want to turn this into a gun control argument, but that's what the hearse chasers in politics and the media are making hay with right now.  Unfortunately, among US States, California has the toughest such laws, and among countries, France has even tougher laws than California.  And we see the results: Charlie Hebdo attacks; Paris attacks; and now San Bernardino.

Until we can change the minds of men to treasure life over fanaticism, we will not see the end of these things.  

So how can God hold us accountable for not stopping it, if there is no way to do so?  And how can God want us to learn how to do it if He himself will not act to do so?  And again, what is your magic proposal for how to stop these things from happening?  

[The Nehor]

6 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

Well, you might want to try to prevent things like this, but how do you propose to do it?  I don't want to turn this into a gun control argument, but that's what the hearse chasers in politics and the media are making hay with right now.  Unfortunately, among US States, California has the toughest such laws, and among countries, France has even tougher laws than California.  And we see the results: Charlie Hebdo attacks; Paris attacks; and now San Bernardino.

Until we can change the minds of men to treasure life over fanaticism, we will not see the end of these things.  

So how can God hold us accountable for not stopping it, if there is no way to do so?  And how can God want us to learn how to do it if He himself will not act to do so?  And again, what is your magic proposal for how to stop these things from happening?  

Shootings in America are more common then in Europe due to our gun culture but the genie is out of the bottle. We cannot decide to invoke European gun laws now to try to cut down on shootings here. There are just too many guns out there.

The only sure way to reduce these shootings is to repent and obey the commandments. I am not going to hold my breath.  

[Duncan]

3 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Shootings in America are more common then in Europe due to our gun culture but the genie is out of the bottle. We cannot decide to invoke European gun laws now to try to cut down on shootings here. There are just too many guns out there.

The only sure way to reduce these shootings is to repent and obey the commandments. I am not going to hold my breath.  

yeah

[Teancum]

7 hours ago, rodheadlee said:

We are told by them to think it out, pray and follow the Spirit.

Deleted because somehow a post meant for another thread got posted here.   

Edited December 6, 2015 by Teancum

[CV75]

10 hours ago, Broker said:

I live and work in San Bernardino County. I've been thinking a lot, as have many others, about attack that took place there this week. I'm sorting out feelings and trying to reconcile what happened with my religious beliefs. Gratefully, a member of our ward who was attending the party, was unharmed. That also means the topic is far too sensitive to talk about with ward members. So I'd like some opinions and feedback on these thoughts (nothing new, the same thing we always struggle with when these things happen):

God did not cause this tragedy to occur, but He did allow it to take place. He could have prevented it, but He did not. He most likely protected some of the people, but others He allowed to be killed.

If God is aware of the sparrow's fall, He is certainly aware of the heartache and hardships that would result if He did not intervene. I think God made decisions about each person that was killed - that they and those who would be left behind to mourn, would be better off, in an eternal perspective,  by going through that particular experience. 

To say that things of this nature and eternal significance just happen because two wicked people decide to exercise their free agency doesn't make any sense to me. I don't think anything significant happens to good people on earth without God's knowledge and permission.

What do you think ?

 

The reason anyone can exercise agency at all is because the Lord atoned for all our choices and actions, both good (through grace, enabling us to do good to His glory) and evil (through penalty, enabling us to do wickedly without harming anyone but ourselves in the long run).

I think He made the decisions about each of us individually from before the foundation of the world (that is, to atone for us), carried out this decision to atone in the Garden of Gethsemane and on the cross, and will yet confirm this decision in the Judgement Day.

[Bob Crockett]

7 hours ago, JeremyOrbe-Smith said:

if God has the power to save the person who didn't get on the plane, then why doesn't He just save the entire plane? If God saves one person from a disease (rather rudely taking the credit away from the doctor who was actually physically present during treatment), then why doesn't He just save everyone from disease? It makes no sense. 

You are so right.

The story about Elisha raising from the dead the Shunammite's son in 2 Kings 4 makes "no sense" whatsoever.  Why didn't God just ensure the kid lived forever rather than call upon Elisa to perform a miracle in God's name?

Any why was it necessary for Jesus to heal the blind man in John 9 with saliva and mud?  It would have made more "sense" that the fellow was born with sight in the first place, and even more sense if Jesus was going to heal him to just say so rather than resort to saliva and mud.  I don't find Jesus's statement -- " this happened so that the works of God might be displayed in him. 4As long as it is day, we must do the works of him who sent me. Night is coming, when no one can work"  making all that "sense," do you?  

[Broker]

 

Nehor wrote:

"There is the possibility that our values are inverted and that death is something to celebrate while birth is a solemn occasion...."

I've come to pretty much the same conclusion.  I think our limited perspective very much distorts our thinking about death.

I don't have a death wish, but I've often told my family that I don't want them to mourn when it's my time to go. I look forward to the next life....after I've experienced what I need to during this life.

[rodheadlee]

12 hours ago, Broker said:

I 

God did not cause this tragedy to occur, but He did allow it to take place. He could have prevented it, but He did not. He most likely protected some of the people, but others He allowed to be killed.

If God is aware of the sparrow's fall, He is certainly aware of the heartache and hardships that would result if He did not intervene. I think God made decisions about each person that was killed - that they and those who would be left behind to mourn, would be better off, in an eternal perspective,  by going through that particular experience. 

 

What do you think ?

 

 

 

 

I tend to agree with this but I think it all depends on how you live your life of prayer. Do you pray daily for the safety of your family or just pray for safety in the moment of your need? Are you in constant communication with God or just when you need him? What is the definition of safety? Is there safety in death? D&C 42:46 states: And it shall come to pass that those that die in me shall not ^ataste of ^bdeath, for it shall be ^csweet unto them;

Does our God have the ability to resurrect us or not? Does He hold the Keys to Death and Hell?

My Mom lives near the perps home so many thoughts have been going through my mind, thanks for starting the thread.

 

[cinepro]

13 hours ago, Broker said:

What do you think ?

 

 

 

 

I'm not an atheist, but sometimes I can see how the argument for there being no God is much better than the argument for there being one.  Especially when the argument for God is only limited by our imaginations about who or what He is and will or won't do. 

These questions are obviously as old as time itself, and ultimately we have to come to grips with the fact that this world has been set up by God in a way that anyone can do anything they want to anyone else, no matter how evil, brutal or disgusting, and God won't intervene as a matter of course.  I don't seek out stories of evil and horror, but even after four decades I still hear about things that have happened in the world (usually World War II it seems) that surprise me in how cruel people can be. 

But in all this, I am supposed to believe that God does intervene to help people find their car keys.

So while I don't subscribe to atheism in philosophy, I do agree with them in one key way: I think it's a good idea to live your life as if God isn't going to do anything to intervene.  If you see someone who needs help, act as if it is totally up to you to do something (and then tell yourself that God sent you to help them, so you helping them was, in a way, God helping them ).  If you need something done, act as if you will need to do it totally based on your own abilties.

And if your country has a problem with people shooting each other, don't wait for God to do something.  Figure out how you can deal with it without His help.  And if He does end up helping, be grateful and go make a movie about it.

[bluebell]

8 minutes ago, cinepro said:

I'm not an atheist, but sometimes I can see how the argument for there being no God is much better than the argument for there being one.  Especially when the argument for God is only limited by our imaginations about who or what He is and will or won't do. 

These questions are obviously as old as time itself, and ultimately we have to come to grips with the fact that this world has been set up by God in a way that anyone can do anything they want to anyone else, no matter how evil, brutal or disgusting, and God won't intervene as a matter of course.  I don't seek out stories of evil and horror, but even after four decades I still hear about things that have happened in the world (usually World War II it seems) that surprise me in how cruel people can be. 

But in all this, I am supposed to believe that God does intervene to help people find their car keys.

So while I don't subscribe to atheism in philosophy, I do agree with them in one key way: I think it's a good idea to live your life as if God isn't going to do anything to intervene.  If you see someone who needs help, act as if it is totally up to you to do something (and then tell yourself that God sent you to help them, so you helping them was, in a way, God helping them ).  If you need something done, act as if you will need to do it totally based on your own abilties.

And if your country has a problem with people shooting each other, don't wait for God to do something.  Figure out how you can deal with it without His help.  And if He does end up helping, be grateful and go make a movie about it.

So, believe there is a God, but live like there isn't?

[JLHPROF]

12 hours ago, VideoGameJunkie said:

If you watched the movie Cokeville Miracle, you will see that God prevented any of those children from dying. But many were killed in the Sandy Hook tragedy. We don't know why God sends angels to save some and lets others get gunned down.

Because whether we like it or not, there IS a plan for our lives.

Christ was always going to die brutally on the cross.  Joseph Smith was always going to seal his testimony with his blood.  Both agency AND God's plan have their place in our lives.

The men that exercised their agency to bring those to pass both fulfilled God's plan AND committed great sin.

Sometimes God wants to bring some of his children home early, sometimes he allows wicked men to make that happen to their own condemnation.

Edited December 6, 2015 by JLHPROF

[JAHS]

It seems to me that for the agency of man to work perfectly, there can be no intervention from God to allow or not allow tragedies to happen that are caused by other men. The actions of those people and the death they cause will stand as a witness against them so God can judge them righteously. God may be able to intervene for other causes of pain and death, but only if it is part of His plan for that person. 

[mfbukowski]

19 hours ago, Broker said:

To say that things of this nature and eternal significance just happen because two wicked people decide to exercise their free agency doesn't make any sense to me. I don't think anything significant happens to good people on earth without God's knowledge and permission.

What do you think ?

 

I think that your mind is made up there is no point discussing it further.  Your conclusion is that we do not have agency.  Fine.  We disagree, discussion over.

I know of other members who had close calls in this event and felt that it was clear that their lives were preserved and choose to see that as reason for further hope in God's protective providence.  Different strokes for different folks I guess

Edited December 6, 2015 by mfbukowski

[bluebell]

37 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

I think that your mind is made up there is no point discussing it further.  Your conclusion is that we do not have agency.  Fine.  We disagree, discussion over.

 

How do his beliefs deny agency?