Julie Rowe

[Calm]

 I understand this may be erroneous, but that's how members think (or at least many of them do).

 

Having worked in a church bookstore, I can unfortunately substantiate your claim.  A customer came in and asked in a tone that she definitely expected me to say "yes" if everything in the store had approval of church headquarters.  Given we carried Harry Potter, nonLDS art and many little knick knacks, I hope I didn't get a "you have got to be kidding me" look on my face when I explained to her that no, there was quite a bit of stuff in the store that didn't come from the Church and only those things marked as having been received from Church Distribution could be said to have been vetted.

 

Education is the key here, imo.

 

For those interested in contradictions in Julie Rowe's stories of her dreams/NDE:

 

http://www.docdroid.net/negu/red-flags.odt.html

 

Extensive review of her first book and problems with it:

 

http://www.ldsfreedomforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=37001

 

Better formatting of last link:

 

http://www.docdroid.net/nnbt/a-greater-tomorrow.docx.html

Edited August 17, 2015 by calmoriah

[JulieM]

Those are very revealing and interesting links and reviews, calmoriah. Thank you for posting them. I take away this: If there is anything the members need to know for their own safety or salvation, it will come from our Prophet and leaders.

[Jeanne]

I bought her book and was so disappointed.  I am real interested in NDE's and Life after Death stuff.  Her book was just boring and though a true experience for her, it just rehashed Bible teachings and I didn't learn anything new or inspiring.  It was like taking a class.. 

[Calm]

"though a true experience for her"

 

Maybe.  See links if needed.

[Calm]

This is posted in the ldsfreedom forum thread.  I think it summarizes her most problematic point:

 

Yes, I agree that she lied about not reading other people's accounts. She has stated numerous times, in her book, online, on radio, and probably in person at firesides that she did not read other peoples books and accounts before writing her book so as not to be influenced by them. She is also on record elsewhere saying that she was given Roger's and Sarah Menet's books for Christmas some years prior to her ever writing her book. While this doesn't prove she read them there is strong circumstantial evidence that she had in fact read them during this time several years prior to writing her, book contrary to her claims otherwise. Good observation about her admittance of seeing similar things. While again circumstantial it does add to the body of evidence that she has lied.

 

and the poster's conclusion of her main issues:

 

1. She never mentioned her NDE on AVOW--it was always her dreams (dreams that started back in 1990) and it was these dreams that make up the bulk of what she shared in her book.

2. She claimed she was told not to share this information, yet she was sharing these dreams years before on AVOW.
3. My concern is that her message of preparedness varies from the church's message--she claims there is to be a 'call out' and having to have certain things to be eligible to go. The church does not say this and also emphasizes food storage, debt reduction, self reliance and emergency preparedness, but nothing about having transportation and camping equipment for a long stay in a tent city.

 

The one who did the analysis responded with:

 

Really? I do think it provides very strong and irrefutable evidence of where she got much of her materials for her book. But at the same time I can see how people could easily dismiss it as evidence since they could argue that her dreams are something of a second witness to what she learned in her NDE. There are of course problems with that argument, primarily that if such is the case then why has she clearly expressed doubts and lack of knowledge about what the dreams mean or if they will truly happen literally - particularly if she already had the NDE years before as a reference point wherein she is constantly saying things such as "it was made very clear to me." Still, I agree that it is very strong evidence that her book is not true "just as it is written." I just believe some of the strongest evidences are the points where she clearly contradicts scriptures and prophets, as well as the plagiarism issues.

 

Edited August 17, 2015 by calmoriah

[Tacenda]

Having worked in a church bookstore, I can unfortunately substantiate your claim. A customer came in and asked in a tone that she definitely expected me to say "yes" if everything in the store had approval of church headquarters. Given we carried Harry Potter, nonLDS art and many little knick knacks, I hope I didn't get a "you have got to be kidding me" look on my face when I explained to her that no, there was quite a bit of stuff in the store that didn't come from the Church and only those things marked as having been received from Church Distribution could be said to have been vetted.

Education is the key here, imo.

For those interested in contradictions in Julie Rowe's stories of her dreams/NDE:

http://www.docdroid.net/negu/red-flags.odt.html

Extensive review of her first book and problems with it:

http://www.ldsfreedomforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=37001

Better formatting of last link:

http://www.docdroid.net/nnbt/a-greater-tomorrow.docx.html

Thanks Cal, I might share this.

[Avatar4321]

Those are very revealing and interesting links and reviews, calmoriah. Thank you for posting them. I take away this: If there is anything the members need to know for their own safety or salvation, it will come from our Prophet and leaders.

I might add they may come directly from the Lord through His Spirits and other authorized agents as well.

The Lords Shepherds always enter by the gate and never over a fence

[Calm]

One of her supporters in the thread states that she states that she was chided by the Lord for sharing information too soon, attempting to justify why she posted content of her alleged NDE prior to the time she first states she had an NDE.  Others say with so many dreams in the past it is hardly surprising that she might mix up times of when she learned stuff.

 

Knowing something first as a teen and knowing something first as a thirty year is rather significantly different though (the tent cities part).

 

For me the claim she did not read the others' NDE experiences so her own won't be contaminated by it with the evidence of her own post that she had the books in her possession and had read the material there and on the AVOW board is probably the most definite evidence against her.  At best it is one lie, it is also possible that it demonstrates a tendency to try and inflate her own experience.

 

That and the whole "I don't know what the dreams mean..." occurring after the NDE where she supposedly had it all clarified to her.  I agree the language is highly problematic and she appears to be retrofitting her dreams into a NDE experience.  Why would she state things that weren't true about her own understanding...just to keep up the appearances that she was talking about dreams that weren't as definite as her alleged vision and not her NDE experience she was told not to tell?

[Mom2many]

Julie Rowe used to be in my ward and most of the ward would agree that she is pretty wacko. She used to make some pretty off the wall comments in Relief Society such as she saw in vision temples on the other side and how our work here in earthly temples helps those on the other side of the veil do the work they need to do in their temples. I would say that pretty much contradicts all that we know of why we have to do work for the dead here. It got to the point where one of our RS presidency members had to ask her to stop some of her outlandish comments and stick to what we know to be doctrine. Almost every time she raised her hand to comment it was about something she had seen in her NDE or a dream.

She brought copies of her first book to Girls' Camp last year and was passing them out like candy, and said she knew the Lord had a reason for her to be there because she had special knowledge she needed to share with the girls. Needless to say, the stake leaders who had initially asked her to come to camp had no idea at the time when she was asked to help that she had a screw loose. They were very concerned about her and her behavior before the week ended and had to politely change the activities she was initially asked to help with.

Many of her "followers" often use the "she's a member in good standing" comment as if to prove somehow that what she is saying must be correct because she hasn't been excommunicated. I happen to know our stake leaders were watching her pretty closely, and just because someone hasn't been excommunicated, doesn't mean they aren't crazy. We probably all know quite a few strange members whose membership has never been on the line. I would imagine, however, if she keeps going down the path she has been on, it might reach a point where she will be told by the brethren to cease and desist.

[ALarson]

Julie Rowe used to be in my ward and most of the ward would agree that she is pretty wacko. She used to make some pretty off the wall comments in Relief Society such as she saw in vision temples on the other side and how our work here in earthly temples helps those on the other side of the veil do the work they need to do in their temples. I would say that pretty much contradicts all that we know of why we have to do work for the dead here. It got to the point where one of our RS presidency members had to ask her to stop some of her outlandish comments and stick to what we know to be doctrine. Almost every time she raised her hand to comment it was about something she had seen in her NDE or a dream.

She brought copies of her first book to Girls' Camp last year and was passing them out like candy, and said she knew the Lord had a reason for her to be there because she had special knowledge she needed to share with the girls. Needless to say, the stake leaders who had initially asked her to come to camp had no idea at the time when she was asked to help that she had a screw loose. They were very concerned about her and her behavior before the week ended and had to politely change the activities she was initially asked to help with.

Many of her "followers" often use the "she's a member in good standing" comment as if to prove somehow that what she is saying must be correct because she hasn't been excommunicated. I happen to know our stake leaders were watching her pretty closely, and just because someone hasn't been excommunicated, doesn't mean they aren't crazy. We probably all know quite a few strange members whose membership has never been on the line. I would imagine, however, if she keeps going down the path she has been on, it might reach a point where she will be told by the brethren to cease and desist.

Thanks for posting this as it gives some perspective and is very interesting.

 

So, how do you think she got invited to speak at so many firesides and conferences (holding meetings in chapels across the country)?  It seems her message was crazy from the beginning (but maybe I'm missing something).

Edited August 17, 2015 by ALarson

[Mom2many]

Thanks for posting this as it gives some perspective and is very interesting.

 

So, how do you think she got invited to speak at so many firesides and conferences (holding meetings in chapels across the country)?  It seems her message was crazy from the beginning (but maybe I'm missing something).

I have often wondered that myself, but many who claim to have NDE's seem to have quite a large following. I read Visions of Glory a few years ago and felt it was laughable because so much of what is written goes against doctrine of how revelation is received, but there are others who bear testimony of the book. I was quite startled when one of her first firesides was at a stake center in Mesa, wondering who gave her permission to speak in a church building. Interesting, however, that she never gave a fireside or conference in Tucson while she lived there. Don't know if it was "a prophet is never honored in his own country" type thing, or if she was watched a little more closely and told she couldn't. 

I also apologize for saying she was crazy above, as that is a bit harsh. I do feel, however, that she has either been deceived by the very angels of darkness that she warns others to avoid in her books and talks, or there is some loss of contact with reality involved. 

[jkwilliams]

I have often wondered that myself, but many who claim to have NDE's seem to have quite a large following. I read Visions of Glory a few years ago and felt it was laughable because so much of what is written goes against doctrine of how revelation is received, but there are others who bear testimony of the book. I was quite startled when one of her first firesides was at a stake center in Mesa, wondering who gave her permission to speak in a church building. Interesting, however, that she never gave a fireside or conference in Tucson while she lived there. Don't know if it was "a prophet is never honored in his own country" type thing, or if she was watched a little more closely and told she couldn't. 

I also apologize for saying she was crazy above, as that is a bit harsh. I do feel, however, that she has either been deceived by the very angels of darkness that she warns others to avoid in her books and talks, or there is some loss of contact with reality involved. 

 

I think this goes back to what Scott Lloyd was talking about with the "modern gnosticism" thread. Every so often someone like Julie Rowe (or Betty Eadie, if you're old enough to remember her) comes along with some claim of special spiritual knowledge outside of the accepted priesthood channels. There's a subset of members in the church that is looking for this kind of stuff, as they wonder why the miracles and revelations of the early church aren't seen so much today. So, there's a market for books and tapes and lectures and so on, and people like Julie Rowe are there to capitalize on it. I call such folks "spiritual entrepreneurs."

Edited August 17, 2015 by jkwilliams

[Calm]

There are two main threads that these "entrepreneurs" usually follow...one is NDEs visions telling about what the afterlife is like (iirc, this is what Eadie wrote about) with the subset of end times visions (Pontius/Spencer is the recent book that hit mainstream as in becoming number 1 seller in LDS market...sigh, I don't remember another end times vision book being so big even though there was Roger Young's stuff that iirc is a collection of scripture and collected visions of others; these individuals usually shared their visions in letters or journals) and those who promote being able to achieve a personal visitation from Christ (Snuffer does this but I don't get an obsession with end times visions, he seems more concerned with the past; Pontius/Spencer hits this as well and iirc Pontius was this until he got hooked up with Spencer). Rowe has picked up the mass audience that Spencer gathered. I did a search yesterday and couldn't find any current event promoting Spencer or Pontius' stuff though his wife published a book last year of his writings so I get the feeling Spencer withdrew after Pontius died. There are a number of other players that are well known among the culture. Looks like the newest one to publish a book is Hector Sosa who is claimed to be having short but detailed visions (no NDE iirc, but I have read anything specifically about him yet) including for the Springville area where he lives (nearby my home so I admit to being curious....looks like my family will get to go camp out in Heber Valley if we pay attention when the call goes out). Book is said to be quite short.

While those defending claim that there is no specific claim to literalness, you can take it all metaphorically if you find the descriptions inaccurate in some way, this is not how it is being presented by most. Some of Spencer's stuff makes no sense as a metaphor (his vision of his birth and vision that gave him information about a doctor and nurse who were having an affair, for example) and Rowe has given out sort of dates for actual events, including the claim that the 2008 election was stolen, claims she saw the Japanese earthquake in vision (though no report until after the event) and now with Sosa's details, many followers are working on developing a detailed timeline with major eve nts starting this Sept or right after conference.

And I highly doubt it would be as appealing if all the visionaries came out and stated it was all symbolic and there was only spiritual teachings in their dreams/visions. Everyone can look at their own dreams in that way. It is the belief that these visions/dreams describe reality not in some vague way, but directly that creates the excitement, the excitement that leads people to stock up on drums of gasoline, more than just a year's food storage, lots of tents...stuff that goes beyond emergency preparedness to long term major disaster preparedness.

Edited August 17, 2015 by calmoriah

[Scott Lloyd]

I think this goes back to what Scott Lloyd was talking about with the "modern gnosticism" thread. Every so often someone like Julie Rowe (or Betty Eadie, if you're old enough to remember her) comes along with some claim of special spiritual knowledge outside of the accepted priesthood channels. There's a subset of members in the church that is looking for this kind of stuff, as they wonder why the miracles and revelations of the early church aren't seen so much today. So, there's a market for books and tapes and lectures and so on, and people like Julie Rowe are there to capitalize on it. I call such folks "spiritual entrepreneurs."

I just looked at a message board frequented by "tent city" devotees. Mother McCreedy, those people have weird ideas! I don't think I recognized until this moment the extent that this subculture has inhabited Mormonism.

I understand they are very single-minded and devoted to these notions, but if I encounter anyone caught up in this zealotry, I think my fallback question is always going to be this: When is the last time you remember one of the Brethren speaking in general conference about the need to prepare to congregate in a tent city?

Edited August 18, 2015 by Scott Lloyd

[Duncan]

Where did this idea of a "tent city" come from? I'd much prefer to stay at a Travel Lodge than some dopey tent

[Kenngo1969]

Those are very revealing and interesting links and reviews, calmoriah. Thank you for posting them. I take away this: If there is anything the members need to know for their own safety or salvation, it will come from our Prophet and leaders.

But you just don't understand: The prophets can't tell the truth because of [fill-in-the-blank-with-convenient-excuse-here]. Thus, it falls to such people as Sister Rowe to let the membership really know "what's what."

 

 

(Cf. Doctrine and Covenants 42:11, keeping in mind that the terms ordain and set apart often were used interchangeably in the early days of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints).  I agree with what you've written here, full-stop, by the way, which rather surprised me.  I asked myself, "Is there a 'but' in there someplace?".

Edited August 18, 2015 by Kenngo1969

[Alan]

At one point I was quite vociferous in opposition to her claims over on LDS Freedom. She responded to me and others in a manner that I can only describe as hysterical.

[HappyJackWagon]

She spoke in my area about 6 months ago. Many devout members attended her presentation and look to her as a kind of prophetess though they would not admit it. But they believe the end is coming in the next couple of months, and they are preparing. They're buying all kinds of military surplus sleeping bags and massive tents, portable but large water purification systems.

 

I find myself puzzled by their adherence to her teaching. I don't understand their view at all but I continually remind myself that they can't understand my view either. We are both unorthodox in different ways. Their way just seems to be more widely accepted.

[Scott Lloyd]

At one point I was quite vociferous in opposition to her claims over on LDS Freedom. She responded to me and others in a manner that I can only describe as hysterical.

That's where I peeked in a while ago and got a taste of this tent-city hobbyism.

 

Without going into detail, I'll say that some of it struck me as right down creepy.

[Scott Lloyd]

She spoke in my area about 6 months ago. Many devout members attended her presentation and look to her as a kind of prophetess though they would not admit it. But they believe the end is coming in the next couple of months, and they are preparing. They're buying all kinds of military surplus sleeping bags and massive tents, portable but large water purification systems.

 

I find myself puzzled by their adherence to her teaching. I don't understand their view at all but I continually remind myself that they can't understand my view either. We are both unorthodox in different ways. Their way just seems to be more widely accepted.

If they're expecting it in the next couple of months, it will be interesting to see what they say when it doesn't materialize. Can you report back to us after then?

[ttribe]

That's where I peeked in a while ago and got a taste of this tent-city hobbyism.

 

Without going into detail, I'll say that some of it struck me as right down creepy.

 

 

If they're expecting it in the next couple of months, it will be interesting to see what they say when it doesn't materialize. Can you report back to us after then?

 

You piqued my curiosity, and now (having read a bit of LDSFF and elsewhere), I'm wondering how many of these people are in my Stake.  This is just plain strange.

 

BTW, the non-materialization of Julie Rowe's "prophecies" will get handled like any other failed "prophecy" - The followers will be blamed for not being ready enough for God to proceed (see FLDS, for example).

[jkwilliams]

She spoke in my area about 6 months ago. Many devout members attended her presentation and look to her as a kind of prophetess though they would not admit it. But they believe the end is coming in the next couple of months, and they are preparing. They're buying all kinds of military surplus sleeping bags and massive tents, portable but large water purification systems.

 

I find myself puzzled by their adherence to her teaching. I don't understand their view at all but I continually remind myself that they can't understand my view either. We are both unorthodox in different ways. Their way just seems to be more widely accepted.

 

The IT guy at my job in Utah was a fanatic about the "end times" and emergency preparedness, though I don't recall him ever talking about tent cities (wouldn't surprise me, though). Every time he came by he would start in on the amazing number of natural disasters going on around the world and how I'd better be prepared. He once said he wasn't taking a family vacation because he needed to stay near "home base" when some unspecified "big event" happened. He had food and water and guns and generators and all that stuff, and he would quote scripture and Ezra Taft Benson. Finally, he said, "You are LDS, aren't you?" I said I was an apostate, and he stopped talking to me. It really is an excellent and useful word.

[mfbukowski]

Where did this idea of a "tent city" come from? I'd much prefer to stay at a Travel Lodge than some dopey tent

Snob.

[jkwilliams]

Snob.

 

Wasn't there some GA who said he'd never slept in a tent? He'd spent a lot of nights in a tent, but never slept in one. 

[jkwilliams]

OK, I just read some of that stuff on LDSFF. Wow, that is some crazy stuff, isn't it? Or should I be more open-minded? I don't know, that stuff doesn't appeal to me at all, and never has. It reminds me of my neighbors back in Utah, and they were nuts.