Julie Rowe

[jkwilliams]

This weekend I spoke with a couple who are Julie Rowe believers. I specifically asked if they would still believe she had these visions/NDE if her doomsday prophesies fail. I was very pleased that while they expect events will occur as she describes and they are planning for it (buying tents and other equipment etc), they will judge her prophesies by whether or not they are fulfilled. That's actually better than I expected.

 

 So if September-October come and go without nationwide financial collapse, a massive earthquate or foreign invasion they will view her more skeptically. Sadly though, they acknowledged that she could be a little off on timing but right over all. With that mindset it will be impossible for them to ever dismiss Julie Rowe completely.

 

Did you ask them what the attraction is? Why would someone who believes in prophets, seers, and revelators within the church look elsewhere for prophecy and guidance? I don't get it.

[HappyJackWagon]

Did you ask them what the attraction is? Why would someone who believes in prophets, seers, and revelators within the church look elsewhere for prophecy and guidance? I don't get it.

They're following in the Christian/Mormon tradition of being apocalyptic. We don't get much about that from church these days but it's an engrained narrative that helps them feel special. (They didn't say it that way but they did refer to being the chosen generation)

[jkwilliams]

They're following in the Christian/Mormon tradition of being apocalyptic. We don't get much about that from church these days but it's an engrained narrative that helps them feel special. (They didn't say it that way but they did refer to being the chosen generation)

 

Perhaps it makes them feel like they're going the extra mile. I dunno. I have to smile that every generation of youth in the church is told they are the chosen generation. Once my daughters came home from a YW activity and mentioned that they had been reserved for the last days, so they were really special. They were annoyed when my wife and I told them that our youth leaders told us exactly the same thing. 

[JAHS]

This weekend I spoke with a couple who are Julie Rowe believers. I specifically asked if they would still believe she had these visions/NDE if her doomsday prophesies fail. I was very pleased that while they expect events will occur as she describes and they are planning for it (buying tents and other equipment etc), they will judge her prophesies by whether or not they are fulfilled. That's actually better than I expected.

 

 So if September-October come and go without nationwide financial collapse, a massive earthquate or foreign invasion they will view her more skeptically. Sadly though, they acknowledged that she could be a little off on timing but right over all. With that mindset it will be impossible for them to ever dismiss Julie Rowe completely.

 

We are definately having a financial collapse today.

[jkwilliams]

We are definately having a financial collapse today.

 

Yeah, but the black hole on September 23 is going to make it seem like a day at the park in comparison.

 

ETA: Seriously, though, this looks like an obvious "correction" based on slow growth in China and the attending devaluation of the yuan. I could be wrong, though, and this could be the beginning of another Great Depression.

Edited August 24, 2015 by jkwilliams

[HappyJackWagon]

We are definately having a financial collapse today.

Frankly, this is the kind of thing that Rowe supporters will claims as the fulfillment of revelation. Today is NOT financial collapse. I'm sure there's an earthquate somewhere in the US today but that isn't a catastrophic even either. And just because uniformed foreign military is visiting and have their "boots on the ground" somewhere in the US doesn't mean we're being invaded.

 

Julie Rowe is prophesying these things a cataclysmic events, NOT the everyday functioning of a large and geographicly diverse country. But get ready, we'll likely hear all kinds of BS about how JR revelations are coming true.

[jkwilliams]

Frankly, this is the kind of thing that Rowe supporters will claims as the fulfillment of revelation. Today is NOT financial collapse. I'm sure there's an earthquate somewhere in the US today but that isn't a catastrophic even either. And just because uniformed foreign military is visiting and have their "boots on the ground" somewhere in the US doesn't mean we're being invaded.

 

Julie Rowe is prophesying these things a cataclysmic events, NOT the everyday functioning of a large and geographicly diverse country. But get ready, we'll likely hear all kinds of BS about how JR revelations are coming true.

 

I fully expect to see a lot of these people saying "I told you so." 

[ttribe]

We are definately having a financial collapse today.

 

No, we aren't.  A downturn in financial markets, even a severe one, does not equate with a "collapse," by any stretch of the imagination.  This isn't anything like 2008, or 2001, and those years had the closest we've come to economic "collapses" since the Depression.

 

ETA: Seriously, though, this looks like an obvious "correction" based on slow growth in China and the attending devaluation of the yuan. I could be wrong, though, and this could be the beginning of another Great Depression.

 

This.

Edited August 24, 2015 by ttribe

[Gray]

Taking the long view, these kinds of dips in the Dow Jones are pretty common:

 

https://www.google.com/finance?chdnp=0&chdd=1&chds=1&chdv=1&chvs=Linear&chdeh=0&chfdeh=0&chdet=1440014400000&chddm=822811&chls=IntervalBasedLine&q=INDEXDJX:.DJI&ntsp=0&ei=5TjbVenpCYmQmAGp24-QDg

[jkwilliams]

Taking the long view, these kinds of dips in the Dow Jones are pretty common:

 

https://www.google.com/finance?chdnp=0&chdd=1&chds=1&chdv=1&chvs=Linear&chdeh=0&chfdeh=0&chdet=1440014400000&chddm=822811&chls=IntervalBasedLine&q=INDEXDJX:.DJI&ntsp=0&ei=5TjbVenpCYmQmAGp24-QDg

 

Yep, compared to Black Monday in 1987, this is a pretty small drop (3% vs. 22.6% in 1987). Of course, the day's not over yet.

[JAHS]

No, we aren't.  A downturn in financial markets, even a severe one, does not equate with a "collapse," by any stretch of the imagination.  This isn't anything like 2008, or 2001, and those years had the closest we've come to economic "collapses" since the Depression.

 

 

This.

I agree it's probably just a healthy correction; I just needed to hear some other people say it too. :-)

[ttribe]

I agree it's probably just a healthy correction; I just needed to hear some other people say it too. :-)

 

Hug it out, man.  Hug it out.

[Scott Lloyd]

Perhaps it makes them feel like they're going the extra mile. I dunno. I have to smile that every generation of youth in the church is told they are the chosen generation. Once my daughters came home from a YW activity and mentioned that they had been reserved for the last days, so they were really special. They were annoyed when my wife and I told them that our youth leaders told us exactly the same thing. 

Could be both expressions were equally valid. Who defines the length of time that comprises "the last days"?

 

A couple of generations are only a moment in the context of eternity -- or even the earth's temporal existence.

[KevinG]

Could be both expressions were equally valid. Who defines the length of time that comprises "the last days"?

 

A couple of generations are only a moment in the context of eternity -- or even the earth's temporal existence.

 

Chosen can also mean "you were saved for this time".  I've seen that demonstrated over and over again.

 

For example, imagine having President Monson presiding over a group of rough and ready pioneers and getting them to the Salt Lake Valley alive.  Then take Brigham Young and have him preside over a worldwide communications network.

 

I'm particularly glad they were chosen for their time.  I see it in my children too.  They are uniquely prepared for this time, and this place, more than I could have been.

[jkwilliams]

Could be both expressions were equally valid. Who defines the length of time that comprises "the last days"?

 

A couple of generations are only a moment in the context of eternity -- or even the earth's temporal existence.

 

Well, we were chuckling because my middle daughter said they were "chosen" whereas our generation obviously wasn't. 

[HappyJackWagon]

Could be both expressions were equally valid. Who defines the length of time that comprises "the last days"?

 

A couple of generations are only a moment in the context of eternity -- or even the earth's temporal existence.

Christ's original apostles felt they were in the last days and were looking for the 2nd coming.

The early saints of the restoration were millenialists, feeling they were in the last moments of the Latter Days. I think JKWilliams had it right. Every generation, at least since the restoration, feels they are living in the end days and will personally witness the 2nd coming.

[KevinG]

If the early Saints were strict millennialists they might not have left New York.  

 

The fascination with the end times seems to peak with people in their young adulthood, then life kicks in for most of us and we get a deeper practical streak.  It does not stop me from telling my children they are special, and prepared for their day.  I just stop short of telling them they will witness Christ's second coming with their mortal eyes.  

 

One East bound step in front of a West bound bus and the end times are here for anyone.

[Scott Lloyd]

Christ's original apostles felt they were in the last days and were looking for the 2nd coming.

The early saints of the restoration were millenialists, feeling they were in the last moments of the Latter Days. I think JKWilliams had it right. Every generation, at least since the restoration, feels they are living in the end days and will personally witness the 2nd coming.

I don't concede that Christ's apostles felt they were in the last days. Paul, for one, prophesied that the end would not occur except there be a "falling away" (apostasy) first.

 

I'm convinced that Christ unfolded the entire panorama to at least his chief apostles. The Book of Revelation, authored by the apostle John, is clear indication of this.

 

Some of the early leaders in this gospel dispensation might have been a bit off the mark in their understanding, but I think they eventually were corrected.

[HappyJackWagon]

If the early Saints were strict millennialists they might not have left New York.  

 

So you're suggesting they weren't millenialists? OK.

[KevinG]

So you're suggesting they weren't millenialists? OK.

 

No.  You missed the word "strict" in there.

[Gray]

I don't concede that Christ's apostles felt they were in the last days. Paul, for one, prophesied that the end would not occur except there be a "falling away" (apostasy) first.

 

I'm convinced that Christ unfolded the entire panorama to at least his chief apostles. The Book of Revelation, authored by the apostle John, is clear indication of this.

 

Some of the early leaders in this gospel dispensation might have been a bit off the mark in their understanding, but I think they eventually were corrected.

 

 

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17

15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

[HappyJackWagon]

Thanks Gray. I was looking for that.

 

 

No.  You missed the word "strict" in there.

 

What's the difference between a millenialist and a "strict" millenialist? And please don't say one is stricter than the other

 

 

The Book of Revelation, authored by the apostle John, is clear indication of this.

Do we have any kind of definitive claim that John the Apostle actually wrote this? (NOT a CFR- just curious)

I know there are 2 competing theories about it and I've always taken the approach that it was written by someone claiming to be (a) John, but not necessarily John the Apostle. Scholars don't agree but I'm curious if there is a statement by a church authority.

[KevinG]

 

 

What's the difference between a millenialist and a "strict" millenialist? And please don't say one is stricter than the other

 

 

By strict I mean those who believe it is inevitable, in our lifetimes, no questions about it.  vs. a more liberal "it could happen, but don't forget to plant this year's garden anyway".

[Scott Lloyd]

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17

15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

 

The Joseph Smith Translation renders verses 15 and 17 as follows:

 

... that they who are alive at the coming of the Lord, shall not prevent them who remain unto the coming of the Lord, who are asleep.

 

Then they who are alive, shall be caught up together into the clouds with them who remain, to meet the Lord in the air; and so shall we be ever with the Lord.

 

 

[Scott Lloyd]

Thanks Gray. I was looking for that.

 

I hope by now both you and Gray are acquainted with the Joseph Smith Translation of this passage.