Duncan Posted June 2, 2015 Posted June 2, 2015 I want someone who is humble and knows the gospel, I don't want to hear doctrinal mumbo jumbo when they speak in Conference
Avatar4321 Posted June 2, 2015 Posted June 2, 2015 if they call someone from "the Deadliest Catch" I will eat my socksWould you post it on YouTube for us? 1
Nevo Posted June 2, 2015 Posted June 2, 2015 Not sure how "common" (as in menial) the professions or vocations of the apostles were. Fishermen could be regarded as "business owners"; didn't they own their fishing businesses? To recap: Seth wrote: "I won't deny the possibility that 'Joe the Plumber' could be called into the Twelve without ever having served in any Church leadership calling. But I don't think it is very likely." JLHPROF responded: "Why? Christ called the most common of men as apostles..." I was responding to the issue of whether "Joe the Plumber" was likely to be called to the Twelve, given that no tradesmen or laborers have been called to the Twelve during my lifetime. I wasn't making a comparison between the modern Twelve and the Twelve in Jesus' day. I agree with you that several of Jesus' disciples could be considered business owners. Peter and Andrew and James and John, at least, were not peasants. They owned their own boats and nets and employed others, if I recall correctly.
Teancum Posted June 2, 2015 Posted June 2, 2015 (edited) Any demand or suggestion that the quorum needs to reflect the demographic makeup of the Church membership smacks of tokenism and ark-steadying. As JLHPROF so eloquently expressed it:How horribly awful to thnk an international church, and one that proudly proclaims that fact, have a leadership that may reflect that slightly more than it does now. Ark steadying indeed. Edited June 2, 2015 by Teancum
Calm Posted June 2, 2015 Posted June 2, 2015 if they call someone from "the Deadliest Catch" I will eat my socksI know a crab fisherman who would be an ideal choice IMO.
JLHPROF Posted June 2, 2015 Posted June 2, 2015 I want someone who is humble and knows the gospel, I don't want to hear doctrinal mumbo jumbo when they speak in Conference When was the last time we heard doctrinal mumbo jumbo? Most discourses are at the most basic levels, first principles oriented, and entirely non-speculative. 1
JLHPROF Posted June 2, 2015 Posted June 2, 2015 How horribly awful to thnk an international church, and one that proudly proclaims that fact, have a leadership that may reflect that slightly more than it does now.Ark steadying indeed. Well then get praying that God chooses someone international, because God chooses the Apostle, we don't. 1
Avatar4321 Posted June 2, 2015 Posted June 2, 2015 Well then get praying that God chooses someone international, because God chooses the Apostle, we don't.I've been praying that God calls the man He wants in the position. I couldn't care less what He looks like or where He is from. 1
JLHPROF Posted June 2, 2015 Posted June 2, 2015 I've been praying that God calls the man He wants in the position. I couldn't care less what He looks like or where He is from. I agree, but making our wants and needs known to the Lord through prayer is a commandment.If we truly feel that a more international apostle would be a blessing to the Church I don't seen any wrong in praying about it.Think of all the things that might never have happened if we hadn't asked. 1
Teancum Posted June 2, 2015 Posted June 2, 2015 Well then get praying that God chooses someone international, because God chooses the Apostle, we don't.Debatable.
Teancum Posted June 2, 2015 Posted June 2, 2015 I agree, but making our wants and needs known to the Lord through prayer is a commandment.If we truly feel that a more international apostle would be a blessing to the Church I don't seen any wrong in praying about it.Think of all the things that might never have happened if we hadn't asked.Does prayer have really any efficacy if God already knows who the apostle should be?
mfbukowski Posted June 2, 2015 Posted June 2, 2015 No more inappropriate than people declaring on their own authority that it's time someone of color be called to the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. I would be just as happy as anyone if that happened. But tokenism has no place in the Kingdom of God.
mfbukowski Posted June 2, 2015 Posted June 2, 2015 Given that more than 1/2 of members reside outside of the United States I would hardly label a non-US Apostle as "token." Scott's comment is odd given that US Mormons are now a MINORITY in the Church.I don't recall him saying anything about minorities. Do you think race should figure into the decision?
rodheadlee Posted June 2, 2015 Posted June 2, 2015 It's harder to get to know people who aren't like you, though. Why is that? I don't have a problem getting to know people different than me. I can sail into any port in the world and make good friends in one day and they become life long friends. 1
sethpayne Posted June 2, 2015 Posted June 2, 2015 (edited) Why?Christ called the most common of men as apostles - fishermen, tax collectors, etc. Of course. But during Jesus' earthly ministry He didn't have need of men capable of managing a large multi-national organization with its many assets. But even if we exclude the temporal aspects of being a modern member of the Twelve, consider Spencer W. Kimball. Or even David Bednar. Both relatively young men when called. Yet both had significant church leadership experience prior to their call. Edited June 2, 2015 by sethpayne
Kenngo1969 Posted June 2, 2015 Posted June 2, 2015 I'll only point out that it's not always an existing General Authority. Elders Bednar, Oaks and Nelson are examples. And selections are often made from former presidents of Church universities; examples are Elders Oaks, Holland, Eyring and Bednar.Is Kim Clark next? (Sorry; couldn't resist!)
sethpayne Posted June 2, 2015 Posted June 2, 2015 (edited) Do you think race should figure into the decision? Not explicitly, no. In fact, I don't think there should be any explicit "criteria" other than that outlined in the New Testament. I think that the Bretheren will take the necessary time in prayer and consultation to call the man who should be called. But a part of that process -- I believe -- will involve consideration of of *many* factors. I'm sure many things may cross their minds, but I wouldn't expect anything less than a spiritual confirmation as the ultimate deciding factor. Having said that, I don't think this would be an unreasonable question to consider: "Would a native Spanish-speaking Apostle aid the Church in better accomplishing its mission among a large portion of the Saints?" Edited June 2, 2015 by sethpayne 4
mfbukowski Posted June 2, 2015 Posted June 2, 2015 (edited) If it was just down to worthiness, half of the Q12 would be Hispanic members with no leadership experience. Wow that's pretty racist.And in this context leadership I experience is part of "worthiness". I have worked with wonderful spiritual brethren who cannot even run a meeting and they are not effective leaders. Sorry- that's the real world It takes people skills, speaking skills, the ability to read and write effectively, a knowledge of scripture and an understanding of church organization to run even a ward. You have to know what tasks go to the Elders Q and which to the HP Group, the difference between Cub Scouts and primary, and what the young women's personal progress program is. I short you need leadership experience. Edited June 2, 2015 by mfbukowski 1
Duncan Posted June 2, 2015 Posted June 2, 2015 When was the last time we heard doctrinal mumbo jumbo? Most discourses are at the most basic levels, first principles oriented, and entirely non-speculative. Was Christ born on April 6? yay or nay? I can think of a few more examples BUT suffice it say the Church doesn't want or need a trendsetter 1
Popular Post The Nehor Posted June 2, 2015 Popular Post Posted June 2, 2015 I am hoping for a resident of Paraguay converted from Judaism who was originally born in Tibet. 5
Scott Lloyd Posted June 2, 2015 Posted June 2, 2015 (edited) To recap: Seth wrote: "I won't deny the possibility that 'Joe the Plumber' could be called into the Twelve without ever having served in any Church leadership calling. But I don't think it is very likely." JLHPROF responded: "Why? Christ called the most common of men as apostles..." I was responding to the issue of whether "Joe the Plumber" was likely to be called to the Twelve, given that no tradesmen or laborers have been called to the Twelve during my lifetime. I wasn't making a comparison between the modern Twelve and the Twelve in Jesus' day. I agree with you that several of Jesus' disciples could be considered business owners. Peter and Andrew and James and John, at least, were not peasants. They owned their own boats and nets and employed others, if I recall correctly.No need to recap. I'm following the conversation well enough.And I'm not disagreeing with you. I'm challenging the notion that Christ's apostles were from the lower socioeconomic strata or that apostles typically are or need to be. Edited June 2, 2015 by Scott Lloyd
Calm Posted June 2, 2015 Posted June 2, 2015 Why is that? I don't have a problem getting to know people different than me. I can sail into any port in the world and make good friends in one day and they become life long friends.Too often we just make assumptions that because someone looks like us, they are like us and reality is very different but we never find out because we already 'know'. 4
Traela Posted June 2, 2015 Posted June 2, 2015 Is Kim Clark next? (Sorry; couldn't resist!)Except that he was just called to the Seventy. I'm hoping for someone outside of North America. Central/South America would make sense, Tonga or Africa would be cool. Russia could be interesting, since I understand there is some pretty heavy anti-Mormon rabble rousing over there.Our last bishop is our local "Most Likely to Become a GA", but I assume he'll at least be a mission or stake president first.
Russell C McGregor Posted June 2, 2015 Posted June 2, 2015 I didn't say anything about God one way or another so I'm not sure why you brought it up. The "token" comment is odd because a non-US apostle would be representative of the majority of Church membership. Thus, not a "token."The only problem with that is that the apostles aren't here to represent the membership. They are there to represent the Lord to the membership. A somewhat important distinction, I suspect. 4
Russell C McGregor Posted June 2, 2015 Posted June 2, 2015 It's harder to get to know people who aren't like you, though. Are you saying that "progressive" types have a hard time relating to conservative Church members?
Recommended Posts