Choosing A New Apostle

[Scott Lloyd]

not to derail but did your son make mention on his papers that you had served in Sweden? My bro. and I both served in LA but 7 years apart, it's always been a curious thing to me 

Yeah. There's a question on the form to that effect. I guess that's what got me thinking he might be sent to the same place as i was.

 

I don't think it asks about siblings, though. I could be wrong.

[Scott Lloyd]

I am applying no litmus test, I was responding to you and others who imply to wish for such is not appropriate . Honestly I am not all that worried about it as it has little to no impact on me or those I care about. But for a church that has more than half its members outside he USA and has 98% of its top 15 leaders as white American men mostly from Utah...well they should be concerned .

That's not self-evident.

 

And you haven't made a good case for it.

[Russell C McGregor]

A few here seem to think suggting as such is not appropriate.

Thus my remark.

No straw man whatsoever.

Really?

Who?

There's a rather significant difference between saying that a non-white and/or non-American apostle is somehow necessary, and saying that one would cheerfully sustain a non-white and/or non-American apostle.

The two statements are different in that the first is clearly racist, and the second is not.

The straw man exists because you took our rejection of the racist demand and treated it as a denial of the actual non-racist position.

On this, the only question before us is: was your misrepresentation intentional, or not?

[Teancum]

That's not self-evident.

 

And you haven't made a good case for it.

For what? The half the church is outside the USA but 98% of the top 15leaders are white me. mostly from Utah? Well maybe not about Utah. We could check that but any are from Utah. But who besides President Uchtdorf who is from outside the USA?

[Teancum]

Really?Who?There's a rather significant difference between saying that a non-white and/or non-American apostle is somehow necessary, and saying that one would cheerfully sustain a non-white and/or non-American apostle.The two statements are different in that the first is clearly racist, and the second is not.The straw man exists because you took our rejection of the racist demand and treated it as a denial of the actual non-racist position.On this, the only question before us is: was your misrepresentation intentional, or not?

Here is Scott's post that my response is too that you claim is a straw man and a mispresprentatiom of something you have now created in your response .

Scott Lloyd, on 01 Jun 2015 - 1:48 PM, said:

Any demand or suggestion that the quorum needs to reflect the demographic makeup of the Church membership smacks of tokenism and ark-steadying. As JLHPROF so eloquently expressed it.

I replied:

How horribly awful to thnk an international church, and one that proudly proclaims that fact, have a leadership that may reflect that slightly more than it does now.

Ark steadying indeed.

So how did I misrepresent anything. I never said that he or you or whoever your "our" is above or implied anyone would object . My post was more incredulous that Scott thought those who hoped for a more ineternational appointment at the top was somehow committing the awful sin of ark steadying.

So who is now setting up the straw man?

Let' me help you....it is not me.

But as I noted personnally I don't care. Do I think an international church should be more representative of its demographics? Well sure. Is it necessary? Nope.

[kryoung1983]

I obviously don't know who will be called, but I wouldn't be surprised if Tad Callister is called at some point. 

[Stargazer]

President Uchtdorf is not German by birth.

 

Just sayin'.

 

Oh, yes, he is.  There is a difference between citizenship and ethnicity, in any case, but he was born in the Sudetenland, a German-speaking region of Czechoslovakia, but he was born there after the annexation of the Sudetenland by the Third Reich.  So, his parents were ethnic German, and he was born on land that was administered and governed by Germans appointed by the German government.  To say that he was not German by birth is analagous to claiming that Senator John McCain was not an American by birth because he was born in the Panamanian Canal Zone.

[BookofMormonLuvr]

Although it would be nice for the Q12 to have a more diverse face, one scripture makes me wonder if that is really in the cards...
 

 30 And they shall bring forth their rich treasures unto the children of Ephraim, my servants.

 31 And the boundaries of the everlasting hills shall tremble at their presence.

 32 And there shall they fall down and be crowned with glory, even in Zion, by the hands of the servants of the Lord, even the children of Ephraim. (D&C 133)

 

** As one who believes, essentially, in a form of British Israelism and that Ephraim came from there to America- it appears to me that the earthly leaders in the kingdom, at least until the Millennium, will be descendants of white western Europeans. **

[Stargazer]

From my limited tenure, that seems to be the pattern.  A guy in our ward moved to some Scandinavian country (not sure which, but I think it was the one with a lot of white people ... hehe).  In any event, he was IMMEDIATELY made the bishop of his local ward.  I mean like within the first month of moving there.  I asked him if there was some kind of scandal or had the current bishop fallen dead or something, neither of which happened.  I then asked him how the "locals" accepted a virtual stranger being made and he seemed puzzled by the question, like it had never occurred to him that someone might feel that way.  He simply shrugged his shoulders and said, "No one opposed me."

 

From this one isolated incident, I've drawn the following universal pattern that must inevitably be true in every case.  There is a Church-wide perception that white American Mormons really know how to "do" Mormonism.  So unless there is some compelling reason to the contrary, they will be put in leadership positions in non-American wards and stakes.  After all, if you can't be in the home of true Mormonism (the City Creek Mall ... sorry, but that was too easy), then you might as well get a leader who has seen how Mormonism should really be done.

 

I'm getting to this late, so apologies, but in my ward and stake we had two similar occurrences.  A guy who had moved here from California had barely been in the ward for two months got called to be the Bishop.  Later, a guy from Nevada moved into our ward, and before the month was up he was in the High Council, and four or five months after that he was called to be the Stake President.  The bishop was an AWG, but the stake president was a Nisei who had even had the dubious privilege of spending part of his boyhood in an internment camp during WW2.  Neither of them were from the home of True Mormonism or anywhere near it.

[Damien the Leper]

I'm hoping the Lord has enough sense not to call L. Whitney Clayton, Kim Clark or Tad Callister...ever. Then again, I honestly believe God would never choose any of those three. Therefore, someone else would have chosen them and God doesn't get blamed.

ETA: "The Infinite Atonement" by Callister should be reason enough. That book was mind-blowingly awful.

Edited June 6, 2015 by Valentinus

[Teancum]

I'm hoping the Lord has enough sense not to call L. Whitney Clayton, Kim Clark or Tad Callister...ever. Then again, I honestly believe God would never choose any of those three. Therefore, someone else would have chosen them and God doesn't get blamed.

ETA: "The Infinite Atonement" by Callister should be reason enough. That book was mind-blowingly awful.

Amen,amen and amen!

[Scott Lloyd]

For what? The half the church is outside the USA but 98% of the top 15leaders are white me. mostly from Utah? Well maybe not about Utah. We could check that but any are from Utah. But who besides President Uchtdorf who is from outside the USA?

So what?

[Scott Lloyd]

I'm hoping the Lord has enough sense not to call L. Whitney Clayton, Kim Clark or Tad Callister...ever. Then again, I honestly believe God would never choose any of those three. Therefore, someone else would have chosen them and God doesn't get blamed.

ETA: "The Infinite Atonement" by Callister should be reason enough. That book was mind-blowingly awful.

I'm hoping we all can develop enough sense not to counsel the Lord.

 

Edited to add:

 

Thanks for the book recommendation. Can I get it in an e-book version?

Edited June 7, 2015 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

Oh, yes, he is.  There is a difference between citizenship and ethnicity, in any case, but he was born in the Sudetenland, a German-speaking region of Czechoslovakia, but he was born there after the annexation of the Sudetenland by the Third Reich.  So, his parents were ethnic German, and he was born on land that was administered and governed by Germans appointed by the German government.  To say that he was not German by birth is analagous to claiming that Senator John McCain was not an American by birth because he was born in the Panamanian Canal Zone.

Well, I'm personally disinclined to recognize any of the annexations by the Third Reich as being legal.

[Damien the Leper]

I'm hoping we all can develop enough sense not to counsel the Lord.

 

Edited to add:

 

Thanks for the book recommendation. Can I get it in an e-book version?

Yup. Amazon.com. Waste $10. It'll be like buying a couple of episodes of Roseanne.

[Duncan]

Yup. Amazon.com. Waste $10. It'll be like buying a couple of episodes of Roseanne.

 

 

if you don't like his book then why don't you write your own?

[Damien the Leper]

if you don't like his book then why don't you write your own?

Eventually. It'll be a dissertation. Theologically speculative topics like Callister's are of know use to anyone.

[Stargazer]

Well, I'm personally disinclined to recognize any of the annexations by the Third Reich as being legal.

 

There have been many legal acts in the history of the world which were wrong.  It was legal for the midwives of ancient Egypt to kill Hebrew boy babies, because the Pharaoh commanded it.  It was wrong, but it was legal.  Just because you don't like the regime in power doesn't mean the acts of that regime aren't legal.  In the case of a dictatorship, the acts of the dictator are by definition legal.  Perhaps they are wrong by the measure of God's law.  But they are still legal.

 

Regardless, the Sudetenland was under German administration at the time Elder Uchtdorf was born, and under the law of the land at the time that made him a German citizen from birth.  That you don't approve of the annexation of the Sudetenland is immaterial to the facts of the matter.

[Teancum]

So what?

Whatever.

[Scott Lloyd]

There have been many legal acts in the history of the world which were wrong.  It was legal for the midwives of ancient Egypt to kill Hebrew boy babies, because the Pharaoh commanded it.  It was wrong, but it was legal.  Just because you don't like the regime in power doesn't mean the acts of that regime aren't legal.  In the case of a dictatorship, the acts of the dictator are by definition legal.  Perhaps they are wrong by the measure of God's law.  But they are still legal.

 

Regardless, the Sudetenland was under German administration at the time Elder Uchtdorf was born, and under the law of the land at the time that made him a German citizen from birth.  That you don't approve of the annexation of the Sudetenland is immaterial to the facts of the matter.

Having recently read up on the Nuremberg trials, I'm loath to regard anything done by the Nazi regime while in the process of waging aggressive war as legal.

 

But I'm disinclined to to continue this thread derailment.

Edited June 8, 2015 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

Whatever.

I used two words; you used one. You win in the battle of brevity in snappy comebacks. Congratulations.

[Teancum]

I used two words; you used one. You win in the battle of brevity in snappy comebacks. Congratulations.

Feeling cutsie tonight? Based on your "so what". I figured the point was not worth further discussion with you.