Choosing A New Apostle

[Scott Lloyd]

If it was just down to worthiness, half of the Q12 would be Hispanic members with no leadership experience. 

He identified worthiness and revelation as the most important factors.

[Boanerges]

I find that last paragraph interesting.  At what point does a prophet cease deciding and begin having decisions made on his behalf?  I am not implying anything out of order, but it is an interesting choice of phrase.

Will President Monson cease to make some decisions and have Pres. Uchtdorf and Eyring decide for him?

 

I think Elder Nelson addressed this in October GC:

 

The calling of 15 men to the holy apostleship provides great protection for us as members of the Church. Why? Because decisions of these leaders must be unanimous. Can you imagine how the Spirit needs to move upon 15 men to bring about unanimity? These 15 men have varied educational and professional backgrounds, with differing opinions about many things. Trust me! These 15 men—prophets, seers, and revelators—know what the will of the Lord is when unanimity is reached! They are committed to see that the Lord’s will truly will be done. The Lord’s Prayer provides the pattern for each of these 15 men when they pray: “Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.”... The Church today has been organized by the Lord Himself. He has put in place a remarkable system of governance that provides redundancy and backup. That system provides for prophetic leadership even when the inevitable illnesses and incapacities may come with advancing age. Counterbalances and safeguards abound so that no one can ever lead the Church astray. Senior leaders are constantly being tutored such that one day they are ready to sit in the highest councils. They learn how to hear the voice of the Lord through the whisperings of the Spirit.

 

He also quoted Pres. HInckley:

“The principles and procedures which the Lord has put in place for the governance of His church make provision for any … circumstance. It is important … that there be no doubts or concerns about the governance of the Church and the exercise of the prophetic gifts, including the right to inspiration and revelation in administering the affairs and programs of the Church, when the President may be ill or is not able to function fully.

“The First Presidency and the Council of the Twelve Apostles, called and ordained to hold the keys of the priesthood, have the authority and responsibility to govern the Church, to administer its ordinances, to expound its doctrine, and to establish and maintain its practices.”

“When the President is ill or not able to function fully in all of the duties of his office, his two Counselors together comprise a Quorum of the First Presidency. They carry on with the day-to-day work of the Presidency. …

“… But any major questions of policy, procedures, programs, or doctrine are considered deliberately and prayerfully by the First Presidency and the Twelve together.”

[Gray]

He identified worthiness and revelation as the most important factors.

 

The topic was qualifications of the person. Revelation is a bit of a non sequitur, as the "candidate" (for lack of a better term) is not the source of revelation. 

Edited June 1, 2015 by Gray

[Boanerges]

I don't know what the Apostle stipend is, but I did once see the mission president's handbook. They are provided with housing, including all utilities, a car (they must pay for a second should they desire one) and an unlimited debit card similar to those used by the missionaries for all other expenses (food, clothing, gas, travel, etc. and including recreational activities).

[Scott Lloyd]

I'm asking about abstract definition.  You said minority could = token and was wondering how you may apply it to the current leadership.

 

Well, since I don't believe tokenism was involved in the current leadership, I suppose the answer is that it doesn't apply.

 

Thanks, Scott.  I've been a member nearly 40 years now and  understand that members of the FP may be referred to as *either* Elder or President.  But I appreciate your "correction."  You darn Utahan  you!  

 

I work for a Church-correlated publication, and if I were to refer in print or online to a member of the First Presidency as "Elder" instead of "President," I would rightly be reprimanded.

[Scott Lloyd]

That doesn't really help. But if you wish to interpret my posts has hostile toward you, I can't stop you. I'd just say that I've never felt any hostility or antipathy toward you. 

It's not about hostility or antipathy. It's about your needlessly arguing a point that I have already acknowledged.

[Scott Lloyd]

The topic was qualifications of the person. Revelation is a bit of a non sequitur, as the "candidate" (for lack of a better term) is not the source of revelation. 

You said, "Church callings go far beyond simple worthiness."

 

He replied that revelation and worthiness are the two most important factors (not "qualifications") in the issuance of a calling. That is, the personal worthiness of the individual and the revelation received by the one issuing the call comprise the two most important factors.

[Gray]

It's not about hostility or antipathy. It's about your needlessly arguing a point that I have already acknowledged.

 

I'm not sure why you thought I was arguing with you. I don't believe I phrased any of my posts that way. Certainly not my second response to you, which seems to be the one you've taken issue with

Edited June 1, 2015 by Gray

[Gray]

You said, "Church callings go far beyond simple worthiness."

 

He replied that revelation and worthiness are the two most important factors (not "qualifications") in the issuance of a calling. That is, the personal worthiness of the individual and the revelation received by the one issuing the call comprise the two most important factors.

 

I think demonstrated leadership capabilities are a critical factor. Don't you?

[Scott Lloyd]

ETA:  The next time Scott refers to "pulling the Uchtdorf card" I think we should all jump in ensure that the phrase is "pulling the PRESIDENT Ucthdorf card."

 

http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/65165-the-church-has-never-been-stronger-elder-cook/?p=1209483117

Did I really come up with that? Not bad, if I do say so myself.

 

I hope I spelled Uchtdorf correctly when I did it, though.

 

By the way, I see a qualitative distinction between using a surname as a label to indicate that something pertains to or belongs to a person (as in the Ucthdorf family or the Oaks administration (at BYU)) and dropping a man's ecclesiastical title when referring directly to him.

Edited June 1, 2015 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

I'm not sure why you thought I was arguing with you. I don't believe I phrased any of my posts that way. Certainly not my second response to you, which seems to be the one you've taken issue with

Your first post gave that impression when you endeavored to set me straight after you incorrectly surmised I was saying that the First Presidency doesn't have to put forth any effort in the process of revelation regarding the selection of a new member of the Twelve.

[Scott Lloyd]

I think demonstrated leadership capabilities are a critical factor. Don't you?

Yes.

 

But that is beside the point of whether Avatar was saying it was "just down to worthiness," as you seemed to imply in your response.

[Gray]

Your first post gave that impression when you endeavored to set me straight after you incorrectly surmised I was saying that the First Presidency doesn't have to put forth any effort in the process of revelation regarding the selection of a new member of the Twelve.

 

Indeed. Which is why in my second response, I began with the word "right." We're agreed, leaders must proactively seek out potential apostles, not wait for God to find them for them. 

[Gray]

Yes.

 

But that is beside the point of whether Avatar was saying it was "just down to worthiness," as you seemed to imply in your response.

 

Since that was the only criterion that Avatar4321 initially mentioned, that was the one I was responding to. 

 

Considering they are looking for worthy latter day saints, I think whoever they choose will be like them in at least that important way

 

[cinepro]

I scarcely had become acquainted with my wife-to-be before we began dating. Less than five months later we were married.

 

The selection process for my current job took longer than that.

 

The difference is that with one, you know it's temporary, and the other, you know (hope?) that you'll be spending the rest of your life with them.

[JLHPROF]

I think demonstrated leadership capabilities are a critical factor. Don't you?

 

No.

Not if you believe God has any direct impact on people.

[sethpayne]

No.

Not if you believe God has any direct impact on people.

 

Hmmm.... I won't deny the possibility that "Joe the Plumber" could be called into the Twelve without ever having served in any Church leadership calling.  But I don't think it is very likely.

 

God certainly has an impact on people.  Sometimes it is sudden.  But often it is gradual which is why it may make sense to look at those with previous demonstrated leadership experience.

 

But then again, I had a Bishop once who was called when he 1) smoke liked a chimney and 2) hadn't been to Church in many many years.  He got the call, stopped smoking, and was a great Bishop.

[Scott Lloyd]

Indeed. Which is why in my second response, I began with the word "right." We're agreed, leaders must proactively seek out potential apostles, not wait for God to find them for them. 

Fair enough.

[Scott Lloyd]

Hmmm.... I won't deny the possibility that "Joe the Plumber" could be called into the Twelve without ever having served in any Church leadership calling.  But I don't think it is very likely.

 

God certainly has an impact on people.  Sometimes it is sudden.  But often it is gradual which is why it may make sense to look at those with previous demonstrated leadership experience.

 

But then again, I had a Bishop once who was called when he 1) smoke liked a chimney and 2) hadn't been to Church in many many years.  He got the call, stopped smoking, and was a great Bishop.

Boyd K. Packer was called as an Assistant to the Twelve (a General Authority position that no longer exists) and later became an apostle without having served as a bishop or stake president and (if I recall correctly) without having served a full-time mission.

 

Just sayin'.

Edited June 1, 2015 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

The difference is that with one, you know it's temporary, and the other, you know (hope?) that you'll be spending the rest of your life with them.

But the selection process could be relatively brief in either case. My wife and I just observed our 19th anniversary. And I've had my current job for going on 30 years.

[JLHPROF]

Hmmm.... I won't deny the possibility that "Joe the Plumber" could be called into the Twelve without ever having served in any Church leadership calling.  But I don't think it is very likely.

 

Why?

Christ called the most common of men as apostles - fishermen, tax collectors, etc.

[Duncan]

Why?

Christ called the most common of men as apostles - fishermen, tax collectors, etc.

 

 

if they call someone from "the Deadliest Catch" I will eat my socks

[Avatar4321]

President Rueben j Clark was not in a position of authority before his call as a general authority.

For that part God could call a deacon p the apostleship if He wanted to.

[Nevo]

Why?

Christ called the most common of men as apostles - fishermen, tax collectors, etc.

 

Nowadays we tend to see less of "the most common of men" in the Quorum of the Twelve. Almost all of the members of the Twelve called during my lifetime have come from the fields of business, law, or university administration. None have been blue-collar or working class.

1. LTP (1974) – Business executive
2. DBH (1976) – Business owner
3. JEF (1978) – Lawyer
4. NAM (1981) – University administrator
5. RMN (1984) – Surgeon
6. DHO (1984) – Judge
7. MRB (1985) – Business owner
8. JBW (1986) – Business owner
9. RGS (1988) – Nuclear engineer
10. RDH (1994) – Business executive
11. JRH (1994) – University administrator
12. HBE (1995) – University administrator
13. DFO (2004) – Business executive
14. DAB (2004) – University administrator
15. QLC (2007) – Lawyer; business executive
16. DTC (2008) – Lawyer
17. NLA (2009) – Business executive

[Scott Lloyd]

 

Nowadays we tend to see less of "the most common of men" in the Quorum of the Twelve. Almost all of the members of the Twelve called during my lifetime have come from the fields of business, law, or university administration. None have been blue-collar or working class.

1. LTP (1974) – Business executive
2. DBH (1976) – Business owner
3. JEF (1978) – Lawyer
4. NAM (1981) – University administrator
5. RMN (1984) – Surgeon
6. DHO (1984) – Judge
7. MRB (1985) – Business owner
8. JBW (1986) – Business owner
9. RGS (1988) – Nuclear engineer
10. RDH (1994) – Business executive
11. JRH (1994) – University administrator
12. HBE (1995) – University administrator
13. DFO (2004) – Business executive
14. DAB (2004) – University administrator
15. QLC (2007) – Lawyer; business executive
16. DTC (2008) – Lawyer
17. NLA (2009) – Business executive

 

Not sure how "common" (as in menial) the professions or vocations of the apostles were. Fishermen could be regarded as "business owners"; didn't they own their fishing businesses?

 

And couldn't a "tax collector" be regarded as a government administrator?

 

I think what matters in terms of qualification are a strong work ethic, sound judgment, native intelligence, and, above all, a dedication to the gospel and its truths. Such qualifications might well be reflected in the success one has achieved in life at the time one is called into the ministry.

Edited June 1, 2015 by Scott Lloyd