Gray Posted June 1, 2015 Posted June 1, 2015 Considering they are looking for worthy latter day saints, I think whoever they choose will be like them in at least that important way There are plenty of worthy people from all backgrounds.
thesometimesaint Posted June 1, 2015 Posted June 1, 2015 From that august authority Wikipedia: A black man in a quorum where the other 11 were white would definitely be a minority. So a minority shouldn't be called simply because they are a minority?
Scott Lloyd Posted June 1, 2015 Posted June 1, 2015 (edited) Right, and God provides members of all races all over the world, but we still have to do the work of getting to know them and giving them leadership opportunities. Even if we don't relate as well to them due to language barrier/cultural differences etcI never said there wasn't work involved for the Church leaders in issuing a calling. Why are you saying or implying that I did? I've stated just the opposite, in fact. Edited June 1, 2015 by Scott Lloyd
Gray Posted June 1, 2015 Posted June 1, 2015 (edited) I never said there wasn't work involved for the Church leaders in issuing a calling. Why are you saying or implying that I did? I've stated just the opposite, in fact. Just continuing the "doing your homework" theme. You can't reap where you haven't sown. Edited June 1, 2015 by Gray
Avatar4321 Posted June 1, 2015 Posted June 1, 2015 There are plenty of worthy people from all backgrounds.Which is why your conclusion that they wouldn't know a worthy member they interact with simply because they have a different background as unfounded
cinepro Posted June 1, 2015 Posted June 1, 2015 The interrelationships may have been God's means of preparing them for service. It also might be showing that there are chosen genealogies in the Church which are pre-ordained to a special purpose. 3
Scott Lloyd Posted June 1, 2015 Posted June 1, 2015 Absolutely, but I think it's more an issue of familiarity (I don't see it as nepotism at all).If you are looking for a good man with a worthy life you are going to look at those you have had the opportunity to know and observe.I'm not willing to concede that familiarity is always the more influential factor. I believe God is able and willing to prompt His servants to opt for the less obvious choice. See 1 Samuel 16:7. 1
Avatar4321 Posted June 1, 2015 Posted June 1, 2015 I'm not willing to concede that familiarity is always the more influential factor. I believe God is able and willing to prompt His servants to opt for the less obvious choice. See 1 Samuel 16:7.I tend to agree. I think it was president Grant who mentioned his inspiration to called Melvin Ballard over his friend and Ballard was practically a stranger to him
JLHPROF Posted June 1, 2015 Posted June 1, 2015 I'm not willing to concede that familiarity is always the more influential factor. I believe God is able and willing to prompt His servants to opt for the less obvious choice. See 1 Samuel 16:7. I would agree if I'd seen many examples of that in my lifetime.I am not denying the possibility, merely recording the probability based on observation.
Scott Lloyd Posted June 1, 2015 Posted June 1, 2015 Just continuing the "doing your homework" theme. You can't reap where you haven't sown. I'm just wondering why you are trying to quarrel with me when I've already said essentially the same thing you are saying.
JLHPROF Posted June 1, 2015 Posted June 1, 2015 It also might be showing that there are chosen genealogies in the Church which are pre-ordained to a special purpose. Now that is an honest explanation based in doctrine.Which is why we can probably guess who the next apostle will be by looking at a few variables (family, experience, current position etc). Or at least create a pool of likely candidates.
Scott Lloyd Posted June 1, 2015 Posted June 1, 2015 It also might be showing that there are chosen genealogies in the Church which are pre-ordained to a special purpose.Yes, that too.
Scott Lloyd Posted June 1, 2015 Posted June 1, 2015 Which is why your conclusion that they wouldn't know a worthy member they interact with simply because they have a different background as unfoundedIf an apostle can, during the course of a weekend, name a new stake president from among a pool of strangers, it occurs to me that the First Presidency can select a man whom they don't know intimately to be an apostle.
Gray Posted June 1, 2015 Posted June 1, 2015 Which is why your conclusion that they wouldn't know a worthy member they interact with simply because they have a different background as unfounded Worthiness is a topic for temple recommends. Church callings go far beyond simple worthiness.
Gray Posted June 1, 2015 Posted June 1, 2015 I'm just wondering why you are trying to quarrel with me when I've already said essentially the same thing you are saying. I'm wondering why you think I'm trying to quarrel with you? That's news to me.
Scott Lloyd Posted June 1, 2015 Posted June 1, 2015 (edited) I'm wondering why you think I'm trying to quarrel with you? That's news to me. Oh, maybe it stems back to post #59 and everything you've said to me since then, despite all my efforts to make my position clear that the Church leaders still must do some deliberation, prayer and other work even after the Lord has facilitated their meeting the man He has chosen as the next member of the Twelve. Edited June 1, 2015 by Scott Lloyd
Avatar4321 Posted June 1, 2015 Posted June 1, 2015 Worthiness is a topic for temple recommends. Church callings go far beyond simple worthiness.I disagree. Worthiness and revelation are the most important factors 1
cinepro Posted June 1, 2015 Posted June 1, 2015 If an apostle can, during the course of a weekend, name a new stake president from among a pool of strangers, it occurs to me that the First Presidency can select a man whom they don't know intimately to be an apostle. The difference between choosing a SP and an Apostle is like the difference between hiring an employee and finding a spouse. 2
Scott Lloyd Posted June 1, 2015 Posted June 1, 2015 The difference between choosing a SP and an Apostle is like the difference between hiring an employee and finding a spouse.I scarcely had become acquainted with my wife-to-be before we began dating. Less than five months later we were married. The selection process for my current job took longer than that.
sethpayne Posted June 1, 2015 Posted June 1, 2015 From that august authority Wikipedia: A black man in a quorum where the other 11 were white would definitely be a minority. Is Elder Uchtdorf our current "token" Apostle? He's the only non-US citizen.
Scott Lloyd Posted June 1, 2015 Posted June 1, 2015 (edited) Is Elder Uchtdorf our current "token" Apostle? He's the only non-US citizen.Where did I state or imply that any of the current Brethren are in their positions due to tokenism? By the way, he is in the First Presidency, so his title is President. Edited June 1, 2015 by Scott Lloyd
sethpayne Posted June 1, 2015 Posted June 1, 2015 I would agree if I'd seen many examples of that in my lifetime.I am not denying the possibility, merely recording the probability based on observation. I think Mike Quinn's historical analysis of the familial relationships between LDS GAs supports your hunch that it is a possibility.
Gray Posted June 1, 2015 Posted June 1, 2015 I disagree. Worthiness and revelation are the most important factors If it was just down to worthiness, half of the Q12 would be Hispanic members with no leadership experience.
sethpayne Posted June 1, 2015 Posted June 1, 2015 (edited) Where did I state or imply that any of the current Brethren are in their positions due to tokenism? I'm asking about abstract definition. You said minority could = token and was wondering how you may apply it to the current leadership. By the way, he is in the First Presidency, so his title is President. Thanks, Scott. I've been a member nearly 40 years now and understand that members of the FP may be referred to as *either* Elder or President. But I appreciate your "correction." You darn Utahan you! ETA: The next time Scott refers to "pulling the Uchtdorf card" I think we should all jump in ensure that the phrase is "pulling the PRESIDENT Ucthdorf card." http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/65165-the-church-has-never-been-stronger-elder-cook/?p=1209483117 Edited June 1, 2015 by sethpayne
Gray Posted June 1, 2015 Posted June 1, 2015 Oh, maybe it stems back to post #59 and everything you've said to me since then, despite all my efforts to make my position clear that the Church leaders still must do some deliberation, prayer and other work even after the Lord has facilitated their meeting the man He has chosen as the next member of the Twelve. That doesn't really help. But if you wish to interpret my posts has hostile toward you, I can't stop you. I'd just say that I've never felt any hostility or antipathy toward you.
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