Choosing A New Apostle

[sethpayne]

His point is valid.  The apostle should be the one God chooses, regardless of where he is from.

It is not a political, administrative, or elected position.  It is whoever God wants to hold the priesthood keys.

Majority, minority, experience, etc may matter to mortals, but God is the one choosing.

 

I didn't say anything about God one way or another so I'm not sure why you brought it up.

 

The "token" comment is odd because a non-US apostle would be representative of the majority of Church membership.  Thus, not a "token."

[JLHPROF]

I didn't say anything about God one way or another so I'm not sure why you brought it up.

 

The "token" comment is odd because a non-US apostle would be representative of the majority of Church membership.  Thus, not a "token."

 

Thank you for clarifying your comment.

[Nevo]

But that doesn't negate the fact that, in the end, it is the will of God that is made manifest.

 

You may be right, but I suspect God sometimes leaves the decisions to humans too. I personally have a hard time believing that William Smith was "God's choice." All of the evidence seems to point to it being Joseph Smith's choice. I also wonder about cases like Lyman Sherman, who was selected to be an apostle but died before he could be ordained.

[Gray]

It seems the pool of potential apostles is limited to people known to the current members of the 15 (although of course I don't know exactly how it works). Regardless of how inspired you think the selection process is, it's still limited to that pool, which is probably going to be pretty skewed towards white American guys. 

Edited June 1, 2015 by Gray

[Scott Lloyd]

I didn't say anything about God one way or another so I'm not sure why you brought it up.

 

The "token" comment is odd because a non-US apostle would be representative of the majority of Church membership.  Thus, not a "token."

From that august authority Wikipedia:

 

Typical examples of tokenism are purposely hiring a black man or woman in an occupation usually dominated by white people, or hiring a woman in a profession usually dominated by men.

 

A black man in a quorum where the other 11 were white would definitely be a minority.

[cinepro]

For those who are wondering how President Monson's current state of health might effect the calling of a new apostle, here is an excerpt from Ed Kimball's bio of his father that describes the calling of two apostles (Elders Nelson and Oaks) late in President Kimball's life when he was extremely ill:

 

[JLHPROF]

How is it different from a full salary? Compared to what?

 

I would be shocked to learn their stipend is not 2-3 times my annual salary and probably more, all coming after usual retirement age. Do you have any information about the amount of the stipend?

 

I have no idea, but I'm sure someone here knows.

You are probably right.  

Fairmormon lists the stipend fairly low - http://en.fairmormon.org/Mormonism_and_church_finances/No_paid_ministry/General_Authorities_living_stipend

 

$50,000 in 1996, some estimate list Pres. Hinckley around 60-65K.  I would imagine today we'd be looking at $70-75,00 for an apostle, but there's the covered expenses as well.

A quick google shows that even Mission Presidents are compensated quite well:

 

 

For instance, the Church will offer full reimbursement for the following personal and familial living expenses of the Mission President and his family, while he serves this volunteer, unsalaried 3 year-stint:

1     Medical expenses, including dental and eye care, though not orthodontics (except in specific cases) and cosmetic surgery (unless covered by the insurance provider);

2     Rent (usually quite upscale);

3     Living expenses proper, including utilities, food, household supplies, dry cleaning, phones, internet, dry cleaning, etc.;

4     One official car, with maintenance and gas;

5     One second official car for the wife, with maintenance and gas;

6     Clothing for the mission president and his family;

7     “Family activities” (unspecified, possibly purposefully vague);

8     Long-distance personal phone calls;

9     One round trip for each unmarried child under 26 to visit the parents out in the mission field;

10  “Modest gifts (for example, Christmas, birthdays, or anniversary)”;

11  Support for children serving full-time missions;

12  Elementary and secondary school expenses (including tuition, usually in upscale private schools, including fees, books, and materials);

13  Extra-curricular activities for the children, such as music lessons, dance lessons, sports, etc.;

14  Undergraduate tuition at an accredited college or university (tuition cap at BYU’s rate, tuition waived at Church-owned schools);

15  Part-time housekeeper/cook (20 hours/week);

16  Gardener, if necessary;

17  Income Tax and Tithing exemptions.

Edited June 1, 2015 by JLHPROF

[Scott Lloyd]

It seems the pool of potential apostles is limited to people known to the current members of the 15 (although of course I don't know exactly how it works). Regardless of how inspired you think the selection process is, it's still limited to that pool, which is probably going to be pretty skewed towards white American guys. 

Is anything too hard for the Lord?

 

God could take someone He desires to be in the quorum and place that man in the path of current Church leaders so they could meet and take their measure of the man. In fact He may well have already done so.

[Gray]

Is anything too hard for the Lord?

 

God could take someone He desires to be in the quorum and place that man in the path of current Church leaders so they could meet and take their measure of the man. In fact He may well have already done so.

 

God could also do your homework for you so you don't have to do the work yourself. Or plant your crops for you and harvest them too.  But that does not seem to be the way God works. 

Edited June 1, 2015 by Gray

[JLHPROF]

For those who are wondering how President Monson's current state of health might effect the calling of a new apostle, here is an excerpt from Ed Kimball's bio of his father that describes the calling of two apostles (Elders Nelson and Oaks) late in President Kimball's life when he was extremely ill:

 

 

I find that last paragraph interesting.  At what point does a prophet cease deciding and begin having decisions made on his behalf?  I am not implying anything out of order, but it is an interesting choice of phrase.

Will President Monson cease to make some decisions and have Pres. Uchtdorf and Eyring decide for him?

[cinepro]

It seems the pool of potential apostles is limited to people known to the current members of the 15 (although of course I don't know exactly how it works). Regardless of how inspired you think the selection process is, it's still limited to that pool, which is probably going to be pretty skewed towards white American guys. 

 

While that may be the case generally, the Apostles do work regularly with the area leaders all over the world, and the Quorums of the 70 are as diverse as ever. 

 

But I don't know how much input the other Apostles have in "suggesting" possible candidates though, so the pool may actually be limited to the people who have personally known President Monson over the years (and I assume it would need to be an association in which their spiritual and leadership skills were manifest, not just shaking hands after a meeting).  But the leaders no doubt get constant reports about how other GAs and Area leaders (and university presidents) are doing throughout the world, so perhaps it would be enough for someone who has "magnified their calling" in such a way that is notable, and that brings them to mind without ever having "rubbed shoulders" with President Monson.

[Avatar4321]

You may be right, but I suspect God sometimes leaves the decisions to humans too. I personally have a hard time believing that William Smith was "God's choice." All of the evidence seems to point to it being Joseph Smith's choice. I also wonder about cases like Lyman Sherman, who was selected to be an apostle but died before he could be ordained.

I believe it was David, Oliver, and Martin who were tasked with choosing the first quorum of the twelve in this dispensation.

They only had so many to choose from.

[Scott Lloyd]

God could also do your homework for you so you don't have to do the work yourself. Or plant your crops for you and harvest them too.  But that does not seem to be the way God works. 

Not at all the same thing.

 

The Church leadership would still have to do the pondering and praying (a form of work) and counseling together. Perhaps fasting.

 

To take your homework analogy, the teacher can facilitate my doing the homework by providing me with the textbook, assigning the specific chapters and perhaps providing a study guide. But I would still have to do the work.

 

Or to take your crops example, God does provide the sun, rain, soil and nutrients to make the crops grow, but I still have to do the work of plowing, planting, cultivating and harvesting.

Edited June 1, 2015 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

While that may be the case generally, the Apostles do work regularly with the area leaders all over the world, and the Quorums of the 70 are as diverse as ever. 

 

But I don't know how much input the other Apostles have in "suggesting" possible candidates though, so the pool may actually be limited to the people who have personally known President Monson over the years (and I assume it would need to be an association in which their spiritual and leadership skills were manifest, not just shaking hands after a meeting).  But the leaders no doubt get constant reports about how other GAs and Area leaders (and university presidents) are doing throughout the world, so perhaps it would be enough for someone who has "magnified their calling" in such a way that is notable, and that brings them to mind without ever having "rubbed shoulders" with President Monson.

In calling a new stake presidency, a General Authority typically interviews bishops, high councilors, etc. in the stake to get their input in the process. It wouldn't surprise me if the First Presidency does something similar in making General Authority callings.

[Avatar4321]

It seems the pool of potential apostles is limited to people known to the current members of the 15 (although of course I don't know exactly how it works). Regardless of how inspired you think the selection process is, it's still limited to that pool, which is probably going to be pretty skewed towards white American guys.

I don't see how you can conclude that. The first presidency and twelve travel all over the world. Thus the people they know will be from all over the world.

[cinepro]

Not at all the same thing.

 

The Church leadership would still have to do the pondering and praying (a form of work) and counseling together. Perhaps fasting.

 

To take your homework analogy, the teacher can facilitate my doing the homework by providing me with the textbook, assigning the specific chapters and perhaps providing a study guide. But I would still have to do the work.

 

Or to take your crops example, God does provide the sun, rain, soil and nutrients to make the crops grow, but I still have to do the work of plowing, planting, cultivating and harvesting.

 

While it may be theoretically possible, I won't believe that a man who isn't well-known to the FP or Q12 can be called as an Apostle until I see it.

[Scott Lloyd]

While it may be theoretically possible, I won't believe that a man who isn't well-known to the FP or Q12 can be called as an Apostle until I see it.

But you're missing my point. God may have already had a hand in the process by ensuring that someone is well known to the First Presidency or Quorum of the Twelve.

 

God knows the end from the beginning, after all.

 

Edited to add:

 

Or it may be that the choice is so obvious they don't have to do a lot of work at this point. That doesn't rule out God's involvement; He may have already seen to it that, due to past experience, a certain person is at the forefront in their minds.

Edited June 1, 2015 by Scott Lloyd

[JLHPROF]

While it may be theoretically possible, I won't believe that a man who isn't well-known to the FP or Q12 can be called as an Apostle until I see it.

 

Especially considering how interrelated they all were for a few years (it seems to have gotten a bit better the past few years).

[Scott Lloyd]

Especially considering how interrelated they all were for a few years (it seems to have gotten a bit better the past few years).

The interrelationships may have been God's means of preparing them for service.

[Gray]

Not at all the same thing.

 

The Church leadership would still have to do the pondering and praying (a form of work) and counseling together. Perhaps fasting.

 

To take your homework analogy, the teacher can facilitate my doing the homework by providing me with the textbook, assigning the specific chapters and perhaps providing a study guide. But I would still have to do the work.

 

Or to take your crops example, God does provide the sun, rain, soil and nutrients to make the crops grow, but I still have to do the work of plowing, planting, cultivating and harvesting.

 

Right, and God provides members of all races all over the world, but we still have to do the work of getting to know them and giving them leadership opportunities. Even if we don't relate as well to them due to language barrier/cultural differences etc

[Gray]

I don't see how you can conclude that. The first presidency and twelve travel all over the world. Thus the people they know will be from all over the world.

 

It's harder to get to know people who aren't like you, though. 

[Duncan]

I have no idea, but I'm sure someone here knows.

You are probably right.  

Fairmormon lists the stipend fairly low - http://en.fairmormon.org/Mormonism_and_church_finances/No_paid_ministry/General_Authorities_living_stipend

 

$50,000 in 1996, some estimate list Pres. Hinckley around 60-65K.  I would imagine today we'd be looking at $70-75,00 for an apostle, but there's the covered expenses as well.

A quick google shows that even Mission Presidents are compensated quite well:

 

 

Just based on the mountain of garbage that this mission president in this mission has had to deal with, that's the least they could give him

[JLHPROF]

The interrelationships may have been God's means of preparing them for service.

 

Absolutely, but I think it's more an issue of familiarity (I don't see it as nepotism at all).

If you are looking for a good man with a worthy life you are going to look at those you have had the opportunity to know and observe.

[JLHPROF]

Just based on the mountain of garbage that this mission president in this mission has had to deal with, that's the least they could give him

 

Hey, I never said it wasn't deserved.  I have no problem with the stipend in all its forms.

[Avatar4321]

It's harder to get to know people who aren't like you, though.

Considering they are looking for worthy latter day saints, I think whoever they choose will be like them in at least that important way