What Would You Consider The Meat Of The Gospel?

[rodheadlee]

I was surprised when Jeanne  said  "The choice is still theirs to make..Dehlin, and all the other "dissenters" did not make these decisions for anyone.  Getting the meat instead of the milk changes everyone in some way" I certainly agree that getting meat will change you but I'm just stumped to know what Dehlin serves that is meat. So what do you all consider to be the meat of the Gospel? Specifics would be nice. To me a serving of meat would be a 5 minute view of the Celestial Kingdom or sure revelation on just what the Book of Revelation is trying to tell me or even the history of the Earth from God's point of view, not mans speculation and lies (re-writting history). ie: the mysteries of the Kingdom of God. Come on you all school me.

Edited May 24, 2015 by rodheadlee

[bluebell]

As I e always understood, meat is deeper doctrine. Does JD teach doctrine of any kind? I've never listened to him.

Meat is not historical issues or things that are difficult to understand because they happened in the past.

[omni]

Back on my mission in the 90s we used to call it "space doctrine" when we were referring to the deep stuff like Kolob. Ya never hear that term anymore.

[rodheadlee]

Back on my mission in the 90s we used to call it "space doctrine" when we were referring to the deep stuff like Kolob. Ya never hear that term anymore.

Can you expound on that?

[mapman]

For what it's worth, I think that when Paul talked about the milk and the meat, he was just talking about the first principles of the Gospel (faith, repentance, baptism, and recieving the Gift of the Holy Ghost, the milk) and everything else needed for salvation (enduring to the end, the meat). The meat would include such things as the temple ordinances, service, preaching the Gospel, and in the end everything true and good in the world. I don't think that there is anything particularly "deep" about the meat, the first principles of the Gospel are simple, but one can go super deep into understanding them. What it does mean is that you need the milk before the meat. For example, if you go to the temple without first having faith and repenting, you may appear to be a good Mormon, but you are terrible disciple of Jesus Christ.

 

You can't have a tree without first having a seed.

You can't build a house without first having a sure foundation.

 

I think that there are a lot of people who never really learn to take the milk and just go after the meat. We should always be basing our lives on the first principles of the Gospel or nothing else we do will help us. We will go through the motions but not hear the music.

 

So I guess that I would say that the meat is a broader category than what a lot of people would think, and that the milk is really important too.

Edited May 24, 2015 by mapman

[rodheadlee]

Great post mapman. I guess the mysteries of God could be dessert.

[Tacenda]

That we will be Gods and Goddesses and have our own planets with spirit children.  But this could take centuries or more to achieve.  So that's what eternity is for.  Didn't ever know this meat, even in the temple, only ever really heard that I will be a Priestess, don't laugh. 

[Jeanne]

The  Dehlin Podcasts affected a lot of people ..some were just simply surprised and others were breathing a little easier because some questions were be answered and/or explained.  while the meat may be different, they had the same affect that the Essays should have had on the faithful. There were many "aha" moments for us older folks who just had it all wrong I guess..Still, it is not Dehlin's fault that the shelves came tumbling down.

Edited May 24, 2015 by Jeanne

[Garden Girl]

That we will be Gods and Goddesses and have our own planets with spirit children.  But this could take centuries or more to achieve.  So that's what eternity is for.  Didn't ever know this meat, even in the temple, only ever really heard that I will be a Priestess, don't laugh. 

 

Why would we laugh...

I'm not sure your first statement is accurate... can you provide a quote?

 

GG

Edited May 24, 2015 by Garden Girl

[Bobbieaware]

Anything one would hear at steak conference of the Porterhouse Steak.

Edited May 24, 2015 by Bobbieaware

[Freedom]

Milk and meet is subjective. Meat for a child born in the church would be milk for an adult investigator. Milk when teaching an evangelical christian would be that that the godhead are three different people. This same doctrine would be meat to someone who has no concept of religion or God. 

 

I would think that performing ordinances would be meat, but the concept of baptism and receiving the gift of the holy ghost would be milk. It just depends on the level of the student. 

 

One expression I despise, however is 'deep doctrine' as if there are doctrines that the regular folk do not have access to. 

[carbon dioxide]

The BYU cougar fight song encompasses much of the meat.

[Duncan]

DC 42: 61 If thou shalt ask, thou shalt receive revelation upon revelation, knowledge upon knowledge, that thou mayest know the mysteries and peaceable things—that which bringeth joy, that which bringeth life eternal.

 

 

Joy for me is knowing where the heck my wife is!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 

Edited May 25, 2015 by Duncan

[JLHPROF]

By the best definition I've heard the "meat" is the doctrine received AFTER conversion to the gospel of Christ through the first principles.  It is the Melchizedek to the Aaronic.  The eternal to the temporal.

 

For me the things of eternity are the meat - the temple, eternal families, progression, Godhood, those things that we do our best to understand in mortality.

It is consecration as compared to tithing.  It is eternal sealing as compared to marriage.  It is the understanding of the covenants made and the things taught in the temple.  It is an understanding of priesthood that goes beyond what we see in Church on a daily basis.

 

I'm rambling a bit I guess.  But meat is for the spiritually prepared and the truly converted.  I suppose that can mean different things to different people.  Especially since there is never an end to learning and progression.  Meat will eventually become milk and new meat will be revealed.  There is really no meat, just a stage of progression.

[Tacenda]

Why would we laugh...

I'm not sure your first statement is accurate... can you provide a quote?

 

GG

GG, I'll never forget sitting on a log at the very place it happened and seeing the reenactment of Joseph Smith giving the King Follet Discourse.  Before going to Nauvoo, I think I remember reading discussion about the discourse on this discussion board. And then to see that the church's own visitor's center wasn't shying away from it, was eye opening!!  But maybe I should not have used the words "have our own planets".  That bothers people for some reason.  Maybe we won't have our own planet but a world within a world.  But to me, this is the meat of the church.  

 

A few quotes from the King Follet Discourse (bold mine):

 

God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! That is the great secret. I say, if you were to see him today, you would see him like a man in form—like yourselves in all the person, image, and very form as a man; for Adam was created in the very fashion, image and likeness of God, and received instruction from, and walked, talked and conversed with Him, as one man talks and communes with another.

 

We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see. These ideas are incomprehensible to some, but they are simple. It is the first principle of the gospel to know for a certainty the character of God, and to know that we may converse with Him as one man converses with another, and that He was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ Himself did; and I will show it from the Bible.

The scriptures inform us that Jesus said, as the Father hath power in himself, even so hath the Son power—to do what? Why, what the Father did. The answer is obvious—in a manner to lay down his body and take it up again. Jesus, what are you going to do? To lay down my life as my Father did, and take it up again. Do you believe it? If you do not believe it you do not believe the Bible. The scriptures say it, and I defy all the learning and wisdom and all the combined powers of earth and hell together to refute it.

Here, then, is eternal life—to know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all gods have done before you, namely, by going from one small degree to another, and from a small capacity to a great one; from grace to grace, from exaltation to exaltation, until you attain to the resurrection of the dead, and are able to dwell in everlasting burnings, and to sit in glory, as do those who sit enthroned in everlasting power.

What did Jesus do? Why, I do the things I saw my Father do when worlds came rolling into existence. My Father worked out His kingdom with fear and trembling, and I must do the same; and when I get my kingdom, I shall present it to My Father, so that He may obtain kingdom upon kingdom, and it will exalt Him in glory. He will then take a higher exaltation, and I will take His place, and thereby become exalted myself. So that Jesus treads in the tracks of His Father, and inherits what God did before; and God is thus glorified and exalted in the salvation and exaltation of all His children. It is plain beyond disputation, and you thus learn some of the first principles of the gospel, about which so much hath been said.

https://www.lds.org/topics/becoming-like-god?lang=eng

 

Quote from the church's essay about "Becoming Like God":    

 

Joseph told the assembled Saints, “You have got to learn how to be a god yourself.”³⁹ In order to do that, the Saints needed to learn godliness, or to be more like God. The process would be ongoing and would require patience, faith, continuing repentance, obedience to the commandments of the gospel, and reliance on Christ. Like ascending a ladder, individuals needed to learn the “first prin[ciples] of the Gospel” and continue beyond the limits of mortal knowledge until they could “learn the last prin[ciples] of the Gospel” when the time came.⁴⁰ “It is not all to be comprehended in this world,” Joseph said.⁴¹ “It will take a long time after the grave to understand the whole.”⁴²

 

Along with this:

 

A cloud and harp are hardly a satisfying image for eternal joy, although most Christians would agree that inspired music can be a tiny foretaste of the joy of eternal salvation. Likewise, while few Latter-day Saints would identify with caricatures of having their own planet, most would agree that the awe inspired by creation hints at our creative potential in the eternities.

 

https://www.lds.org/topics/becoming-like-god?lang=eng

[Judd]

It always seems to me that we miss the mark the way we apply "milk before meat" in discussions. I've struggled with the passing implication that having faith and an understanding of the atonement of Christ enough to repent represents the piddly "milk" of the gospel while every other less-know particular that's far-distant from the mission of the atonement somehow encompasses some of the "meatier" issues.

Not to be too cynical, but there's a saying that you "don't know what you don't know." I think we all believe we have a good grasp of fundamental principles but I think as a whole we have superficial or passing knowledge of these. My favorite example of this is a lot of Neil A. Maxwell's work. He usually talks about rather simple principles but demonstrates that they are much more deep and rich than we perceive. Of course, some don't like the implications of discussing basic things because they feel offended and trivialized because we perceive our sophistication and intellect to be well beyond the primary answers.

Edited May 25, 2015 by Judd

[rodheadlee]

The  Dehlin Podcasts affected a lot of people ..some were just simply surprised and others were breathing a little easier because some questions were be answered and/or explained.  while the meat may be different, they had the same affect that the Essays should have had on the faithful. There were many "aha" moments for us older folks who just had it all wrong I guess..Still, it is not Dehlin's fault that the shelves came tumbling down.

I am an older folk too, but a convert at 28. I guess I would have a different perspective than a BIC.

[CV75]

I was surprised when Jeanne  said  "The choice is still theirs to make..Dehlin, and all the other "dissenters" did not make these decisions for anyone.  Getting the meat instead of the milk changes everyone in some way" I certainly agree that getting meat will change you but I'm just stumped to know what Dehlin serves that is meat. So what do you all consider to be the meat of the Gospel? Specifics would be nice. To me a serving of meat would be a 5 minute view of the Celestial Kingdom or sure revelation on just what the Book of Revelation is trying to tell me or even the history of the Earth from God's point of view, not mans speculation and lies (re-writting history). ie: the mysteries of the Kingdom of God. Come on you all school me.

There is a youth video, “Face2Face with the Bednars,” where he repeats a principle I’ve heard him teach, demonstrate and help people experience on a couple of occasions: when we are prepared, we can hear things of the Spirit when nothing about it has been said by anyone speaking. The speakers offer milk, but the Spirit gives us the meat, or those intimate, personal instructions, guidance, insights and “commandments not a few,” often too personal or sacred to share, or to be shared only with the utmost care. This is why Paul would not share it, for example, in the 1 Corinthians 3 letter.

 

Many years ago President Packer was meeting with a large priesthood body, and said that during the upcoming break, we should prepare ourselves for a personal, revelatory experience in his next instruction concerning the meat of a certain matter. Because there was so much irreverent socializing during the break, when we returned, he said he was not able to instruct us in that matter for the reason that we were not prepared, and said he would continue discussing more basic principles.

 

D&C 19:22 refers to “these things” regarding meat, which at the time was the meaning of “eternal punishment”; since then it is a fairly basic principle that is taught quite regularly. Because this mystery had to do with what had to be known to enter into his rest (verses 8 and 9), and mysteries are had in the temple (both instructional content and the personal instruction I described above), I think what we bring with us out of the temple (both literally and spiritual) is “meat.”

[omni]

Can you expound on that?

It was a term given used when I was growing up in the 90s. It was generally used to refer to the really deep doctrine that we don't talk about much, like Kolob and the details of theosis.

I had a companion who had worked out a whole complex theory involving the millennium complete with scripture references about the Earth turning into a glass ball and obscure quotes from the early prophets about the sun and Kolob. I forget the details, but you can get the point.

[JLHPROF]

I had a companion who had worked out a whole complex theory involving the millennium complete with scripture references about the Earth turning into a glass ball and obscure quotes from the early prophets about the sun and Kolob. I forget the details, but you can get the point.

 

My kind of guy.

[Calm]

It was a term given used when I was growing up in the 90s. It was generally used to refer to the really deep doctrine that we don't talk about much, like Kolob and the details of theosis.

I had a companion who had worked out a whole complex theory involving the millennium complete with scripture references about the Earth turning into a glass ball and obscure quotes from the early prophets about the sun and Kolob. I forget the details, but you can get the point.

Those are the dessert doctrines...the ones we've got just for the fun of speculation, imo, but too much of them and not enough of the basics will lead to flabby, poorly formed spirits.  The right balance though makes for a delightful, enjoyable meal.

 

The milk doctrines wet our tastes for learning the things of God that will bring us to him, they help us when we are weak in the faith to develop and grow and we begin to hunger for that which will bring more spiritual power and satisfaction to our souls.  Those are the meat doctrines...those doctrines of God that will make us one with him; the meat, the heart of the Gospel. The side dishes meant to provide extra nutrition to strengthen us in hardship are the doctrines that teach us obedience and set us apart from the world, such as tithing, the WoW and the principles of modesty/virture (and I don't mean how one dresses but moral excellence).

 

Then there are the manure doctrines, false doctrines---often hobby horses---packaged up to look like they are of sparkly special spiritual substance, but they won't pass the smell taste and the only way any member is going to feel like they are getting something is if they can pass off a barrowful to another member who is so impressed with their knowledge, skill and commitment.  The member uses this stuff to create an exotic environment in order to nuture the looked for elite, esoteric, rarified doctrine they expect to be given for their efforts but they tend to have such a overrich environment helped along with artificial spiritual boost so that growth is too much and too fast and in the end not a lot of real flavour to their fruit.

Edited May 25, 2015 by calmoriah

[The Nehor]

The meat is understanding the atonement.

 

Kolob, Adam-God, and the like are peripherals. They might be seasoning on the meat but they are not the meat.

[rpn]

I would posit that all of actual doctrine is meat.   The single most important part of that doctrine is the Plan, including, pre-eminently, the atonement.

[Avatar4321]

Milk is the doctrine of Christ

The meat are the things the Spirit teaches us when we are prepared. I've had, on occasion, experiences the Lord has taught me things that I know if I shared them people would not understand, partially because of my inability to articulate them, but also because they aren't obvious. I could see how teaching things like that to a non member or a recent convert might cause them to choke.

[omni]

My kind of guy.

Elder Coppins, is that you?