rockpond Posted January 6, 2015 Posted January 6, 2015 I agree that in small doses Deseret Book has at least moderately covered many topics. Not polyandry or Adam God, but many. I also agree about what you said about youth and history. For me spending two years talking about the one true Church, it did set me up expecting more consistency in the history. Like the attitude I think the Church is heading towards now. I personally think we need to own the history of polygamy better. My 2 cents.I agree. The gospel topics essays have been a good step in bringing more light to some of the troubling issues. Next step, IMO, is to own up to past mistakes rather than portraying them as justified and privileging the reputations of past leaders over truths that we don't like.
carbon dioxide Posted January 6, 2015 Posted January 6, 2015 I believe people leave the Church (and other churches as well) because they have comfortable lives and things are going great. Prosperity breeds indifference. Many young people today are spoiled brats Things will change when the world changes. Perhaps if all this man made global warming is real and all the disasters they predict happen will turn out to be a great blessing. Maybe a good pandemic will be a help. A little or a lot of fear will bring a lot of people back to their knees. It tends to focus the mind on the more important things and how temporary this life really is.
Sleeper Cell Posted January 6, 2015 Posted January 6, 2015 And don't forget, Scott, religion and Chist have been stripped from the public schools so that they no longer have Christmas carols or programs that refer to the Savior's birth... no nativity scenes... only Santa Claus, etc so as not to "offend " anyone... Christmas vacation became Winter Break... Christmas trees became "holiday" trees... Merry Christmas became Happy Holidays, and on and on until there is no honoring or reverence for the Christ... Last month, I attended a short stage production of “A Christmas Carol” at one of our local theme parks. After it was over, the production’s “greeter” actually wished the departing audience “Happy Holidays,” rather than “Merry Christmas!” Besides pretty much missing the story’s entire point, it apparently never occurred to her (or at least, not to her supervisors) than it is extremely doubtful that anyone who chose to attend “A Christmas Carol” would be offended by the words “Merry Christmas.” And if they were, the production, itself, would have already offended them so much that it is hard to see how one more “Merry Christmas” would have made any difference. .
Nofear Posted January 6, 2015 Posted January 6, 2015 Don't have much to add in the way of conversation that is going on, but there are some interesting statistics available about youth and religion:e.g. http://youthandreligion.nd.edu/research-findings/reports/. Well worth perusing. As pointed out by the OP, Latter-day Saints are doing quite well, relatively speaking.
Garden Girl Posted January 7, 2015 Posted January 7, 2015 Yesterday while out and about doing chores, I stopped to get gas... the attendant was a young man in early twenties, not over about 22 - 23... He greeted me warmly and politely... was sporting long hair in a pony tail with dreadlocks... and multiple pierciengs in both ears. While he was standing there beside the pumps I said... Boy are we fortunate, I was just talking to my sister who lives in the mid-West and it's 11 degrees!! He siad... I know what that's like, I grew up in Idaho Falls. I said... There's lots of LDS in Idaho, are you LDS?... He laughed and rolled his eyes and said no, he wasn't LDS. And I said... Oh, don't say it that way...He said... Oh I don't have anything against the Mormons, I love the Mormons, my Mom is strict Mormon, but when I was growing up I was force fed the Church... I was baptized, but I didn't like being told what I could do so went inactive and was finally excommunicated.I said... You know, there's a problem in the Church today in retaining some of our young people... different than my generation... why do you think... is it because like you they don't want restrictions... are they not as spiritual?He said... I don't think it's that they are less spiritual... I think they are less "religious" but still spiritual... you don't have to be religious to love God...We chatted a few more minutes and I went on my way... thinking of this very nice young man who wasn't religious, but was still spiritual...I told this to my sister this a.m., and she said that's the way her grandsons are... they were raised in an evangelical type church... but her oldest (21) no longer attends regularly but believes in God... but sees nothing wrong with the occasional pot, beer, or smoking...Her other grandson (15) said, when she asked if he believed in God... that yes he believed there was a creator but that you didn't have to attend a specific church... Is this the trend among young people today? GG
Nofear Posted January 7, 2015 Posted January 7, 2015 Is this the trend among young people today?Yes, "spiritual but not religious" it is a definite trend. See: http://www.pewforum.org/2012/10/09/nones-on-the-rise/ or https://www.barna.org/barna-update/culture/652-3-vocational-trends-for-2014#.VK23uS5VnK8
Tacenda Posted January 7, 2015 Posted January 7, 2015 Maybe because of some abuses, such as sexual etc that happen because whomever might have authority in the church and use it to their advantage. And the youth are aware of the atrocities all in the name of religion. And then you have religion against SSM and it tops off the list.
saemo Posted January 7, 2015 Posted January 7, 2015 Spiritual but not religious, is for me synonymous with "throw it out to the universe". I hear that a lot from the under thirties. I always have the urge to ask, why not throw it out to the trees, or the sun, the wind, the fish, the grass or the rain?
The Nehor Posted January 8, 2015 Posted January 8, 2015 I believe people leave the Church (and other churches as well) because they have comfortable lives and things are going great. Prosperity breeds indifference. Many young people today are spoiled brats Things will change when the world changes. Perhaps if all this man made global warming is real and all the disasters they predict happen will turn out to be a great blessing. Maybe a good pandemic will be a help. A little or a lot of fear will bring a lot of people back to their knees. It tends to focus the mind on the more important things and how temporary this life really is.While the Millenial generation has their fair share of brats the older people looking down on them and complaining are generally wrong about just about everything. The value of the salary of almost everyone has fallen, jobs are scarcer, degrees are so prevalent many have no value at all, and the leaders of most companies (mostly baby boomers) are content to ship jobs overseas. Most of this is due to shortsighted decisions by their parents. The baby boomer generation harps on about the good old days but they benefited because the World War II greatest generation made large sacrifices and the war depopulated and laid waste to much of the world so the US had a position of economic superiority. That has since been lost and the Baby Boomer generation squandered that time on themselves with little thought for the future and gave them outdated and unmaintained infrastructure and a huge wealth divide. They may be sinners but so were their parents.I am glad I was born 10-15 years before that generation was. I had a much better chance.
carbon dioxide Posted January 8, 2015 Posted January 8, 2015 Secular humanism ideology in the public school system has done a lot to lead our youth away from the church. The Christian right is fighting to keep God in school where it has always been up until this humanism ideology came about. People do not realize that the worship of Satan and his plan is this secular humanism that is slowly and forcefully taking over the world. The above few posts I just read prove this ideology.Secular humanism is a self terminating system. It will not take over the world There is nothing to fight or die for in it. There is nothing to rally around. Many tend to be very dependent on government. It tends to lead to lower birth rates. Look what has happened in Europe. The people left the churches, had fewer kids, and their populations are stagnant or declining except for one big group (Islam) is increasing in size by higher birthrates and immigration. So the secularists in Europe eventually will be replaced by the Muslims. May be a few generations but it will happen. It will happen in America as well if Americans replace their worship of a divine being with their worship of humanity. Weaker groups are taken over by more dominant ones. 1
readstoomuch Posted January 8, 2015 Posted January 8, 2015 Immigrants find many opportunities and prosperity. Why do they find a way? What prevents any one from opening a business? The younger generation has its points about other generations and they care about social issues. I don't find most of them to be hard workers or risk takers.
The Nehor Posted January 8, 2015 Posted January 8, 2015 Immigrants find many opportunities and prosperity. Why do they find a way? What prevents any one from opening a business? The younger generation has its points about other generations and they care about social issues. I don't find most of them to be hard workers or risk takers.Unskilled Immigrants generally survive on shoestring budgets and communal pooling of resources and many operate on the hope that their children will do better and be able to help later.Quite bluntly the reason the primary reason they are not hard workers is that they are getting paid less and there is little incentive to work hard to advance. The federal minimum wage has been around since the 30s. For it to have kept up with inflation and maintain the same buying power it should be $20+ an hour at least. Probably $25 an hour is a good estimate. I know of homes with two full-time adult workers who make less then that.Opening a business is much more risky now then it was in the 60s, 70s, and 80s and the rewards are generally less unless you are either brilliant or lucky or, more likely, you need both. And Heaven help you if you need a loan to start it right now. 2
why me Posted January 8, 2015 Posted January 8, 2015 (edited) Yesterday while out and about doing chores, I stopped to get gas... the attendant was a young man in early twenties, not over about 22 - 23... He greeted me warmly and politely... was sporting long hair in a pony tail with dreadlocks... and multiple pierciengs in both ears. While he was standing there beside the pumps I said... Boy are we fortunate, I was just talking to my sister who lives in the mid-West and it's 11 degrees!! He siad... I know what that's like, I grew up in Idaho Falls. I said... There's lots of LDS in Idaho, are you LDS?... He laughed and rolled his eyes and said no, he wasn't LDS. And I said... Oh, don't say it that way...He said... Oh I don't have anything against the Mormons, I love the Mormons, my Mom is strict Mormon, but when I was growing up I was force fed the Church... I was baptized, but I didn't like being told what I could do so went inactive and was finally excommunicated.I said... You know, there's a problem in the Church today in retaining some of our young people... different than my generation... why do you think... is it because like you they don't want restrictions... are they not as spiritual?He said... I don't think it's that they are less spiritual... I think they are less "religious" but still spiritual... you don't have to be religious to love God...We chatted a few more minutes and I went on my way... thinking of this very nice young man who wasn't religious, but was still spiritual...I told this to my sister this a.m., and she said that's the way her grandsons are... they were raised in an evangelical type church... but her oldest (21) no longer attends regularly but believes in God... but sees nothing wrong with the occasional pot, beer, or smoking...Her other grandson (15) said, when she asked if he believed in God... that yes he believed there was a creator but that you didn't have to attend a specific church... Is this the trend among young people today? GGYes, it is. I stated that it had much to do with the Impulse society, where values are marketized. Young people believe in choice and the overwhelming freedom to choose one's own values. Family and commonality can get less attention. The stress in on self-gratification and many young people are self-obsessed with themselves. The world has become a personal selfie. And like I said earlier, many have no room for retrictions since restrictions do put a dent in their freedom to choose. When a young person chooses the 'spiritual' at the expense of a church they do so because their spirituality is one of choice in choosing one's own values. Such is what the church is fighting against. However, with age the young people can realize that such freedom to choose does not necessarily lead to fulfillment. And they can return to the commonality of values that one has with members of the same church. Here is an interesting book on the subject: http://www.bloomsbury.com/us/the-impulse-society-9781608198146/ And here is an interesting discussion on the topic. It starts at 38:20: Unfortunately, the conversation is couched in business but.... http://theimpulsesociety.wordpress.com/ Edited January 8, 2015 by why me
Nofear Posted January 8, 2015 Posted January 8, 2015 (edited) How do you see today's "impulse society" different than the post 1950's counter-culture of the 1960's? Curiously, while "spiritual but not religious" is a definite trend, millennials are also definitely eschewing faddish church services in favor of more traditional (except they don't want to dress up or sit on hard pews), or more accurately, "authentic" services (see for example http://thomrainer.com/2014/04/02/worship-style-attracts-millennials/). Edited January 8, 2015 by Nofear 1
cinepro Posted January 8, 2015 Posted January 8, 2015 (edited) Last month, I attended a short stage production of “A Christmas Carol” at one of our local theme parks. After it was over, the production’s “greeter” actually wished the departing audience “Happy Holidays,” rather than “Merry Christmas!” Besides pretty much missing the story’s entire point, it apparently never occurred to her (or at least, not to her supervisors) than it is extremely doubtful that anyone who chose to attend “A Christmas Carol” would be offended by the words “Merry Christmas.” And if they were, the production, itself, would have already offended them so much that it is hard to see how one more “Merry Christmas” would have made any difference. . It's possible the greeter wasn't Christian, and her parting expression was more in line with her religious beliefs and not influenced by anything more than that. Assuming the theme park you attended hires Jews and other non-Christians, of course. Edited January 8, 2015 by cinepro
bluebell Posted January 8, 2015 Posted January 8, 2015 It's possible the greeter wasn't Christian, and her parting expression was more in line with her religious beliefs and not influenced by anything more than that. Assuming the theme park you attended hires Jews and other non-Christians, of course. This was my first thought as well. As a whole we make WAY to much out of whether or not someone says Merry Christmas or Happy Holidays. There are a lot more important things to care about. 1
Ham Clam Posted January 8, 2015 Posted January 8, 2015 Spiritual but not religious, is for me synonymous with "throw it out to the universe". I hear that a lot from the under thirties. I always have the urge to ask, why not throw it out to the trees, or the sun, the wind, the fish, the grass or the rain?As a millennial, I get how it's easy to feel pessimistic about organized religion. I'm assuming that you may go to places online where people are disaffected concerning Mormonism, but not as much Catholicism to hear their frustrations. Many under 30's also lack a spiritual home and the process of finding one can be frustrating so 'spiritual-but-no-religious' is a default position. It's a 'safe' position.I first encountered the 'spiritual-but-not-religion' when a new covert to a past singles branch started posting things online like 'No religion, just Jesus'. He had a hard time finding a spiritual home and as a type A was frustrated with the lack of people taking charge to get things done (of course, later, he found this a problem in the branch too).I think more YAs want a home, but don't want to do the work to deal with the frustrations they have or haven't felts the fruits of a really good congregation.... but then there are those people who think they believe in something 'purer' than the rest of us religious people.
california boy Posted January 8, 2015 Posted January 8, 2015 Yes, it is. I stated that it had much to do with the Impulse society, where values are marketized. Young people believe in choice and the overwhelming freedom to choose one's own values. Family and commonality can get less attention. The stress in on self-gratification and many young people are self-obsessed with themselves. The world has become a personal selfie. And like I said earlier, many have no room for retrictions since restrictions do put a dent in their freedom to choose. When a young person chooses the 'spiritual' at the expense of a church they do so because their spirituality is one of choice in choosing one's own values. Such is what the church is fighting against. However, with age the young people can realize that such freedom to choose does not necessarily lead to fulfillment. And they can return to the commonality of values that one has with members of the same church. Here is an interesting book on the subject: http://www.bloomsbury.com/us/the-impulse-society-9781608198146/ And here is an interesting discussion on the topic. It starts at 38:20: Unfortunately, the conversation is couched in business but.... http://theimpulsesociety.wordpress.com/ The real question is not whether young people are willing to sacrifice, but rather WHY are they unwilling to sacrifice. There has been a huge change in religion that was not there a generation ago. Science. Much of what is in the scriptures have been proven to just not be the truth. There was no global flood. Adam and Eve were not the firstt humans. The American indians are not decendants of the house of Israel. The scientific proof is pretty undisputable. We trust DNA to convict murderers and trace the decendants of kings. Young people know that is pretty solid science and has nothing to do with some evil satanic plot to overthrow religion. They just grew up in a different world than our generation. Sure Dr. Leaky was around, but his theories about mankind's origins were still yet to be proven so completely. To blame it on teenagers being self absorbed now days is just an escape goat. Anyone who has raised teenagers and are around twenty year olds will tell you they are almost always self absorbed. This has been true since Lehi crossed the seas. The core of the problem is that religion lacks credibility. If you can't trust what religion teaches, then you have to make a completely different decision. Do you want to stay in a religion for other reasons than just the dogma. Can you follow a religion that has not been truthful about such things as polygamy and blacks and the scriptures being true? Many are answering no. While they are not willing to leave God or spirituality, they are willing to leave the dogma of religion. Some choose to stay in religion because they like the social structure it offers. I think this is why the Mormon church is doing better than most religions. Youth view a church centered around family with strong activities for their young children and a support to raising their families is a real strength that not all the other churches can offer. It comes down to this. The church dogma may not be true, but the structure of friends that are the kind I want to associate with and raising my future family in may be what I want. Just look at the data that Nofear posted. They want the tradition still, but they just don't believe the dogma. For some the dogma is just too much to ignore. That is why some social issues like how gays are marginalized and past attitudes towards blacks and polygamy are just too great to overcome the social benefits. If you are going to ask a person to make great sacrifices, you have to be able to offer them something they want. If they don't trust that what you are offering them is true, then perhaps it is the lifestyle that you can offer. For some, that might be enough. I know I am not going to get a lot of response to this post. These are hard things to come to grips with. Heck, I don't even want to have to face them. It is easier to pretend there are no problems in what religion teaches. It was easier to believe when there was no proof against the dogma. It is easier to believe that it is the young peoples fault or that somehow people are different, or maybe it is better marketing or, or, or. It must be them because if it is not them, then where does that leave my own beliefs. Why am I making the sacrifices that are asked of me. 4
The Nehor Posted January 8, 2015 Posted January 8, 2015 I do not think the problem is the youth. It is the leaders and propaganda about how to teach. Many teachers have been told they have to expect less from children and teens and make it as fun as possible and avoid hard things to avoid scaring them off. They do so and the kids are raised in a vapid religious environment in which spirituality without religion seems a logical choice. It is what they were raised on.God does not like lukewarm saints. In fact he claims to spew them out. When the youth are taught lukewarm gospel they then try it and get no response from it and logically discard it. I really cannot blame them for doing so.The apostles have told us that children and teens thirst after truths and told us to stop trying to sneak up on them with them or water them down to make them less offensive. I had teachers like that growing up. They were failures at teaching. I also had a few who actually fed the sheep and I owe them a lot. 2
BCSpace Posted January 8, 2015 Posted January 8, 2015 A highly illuminating blog post by John Gee of BYU and lately of the Maxwell Institute. Citing a published study, Professor Gee takes up the matter of the departure of LDS youth from the faith as they emerge into adulthood. Some highlights that stood out to me:-- Though we lose far too many of our youth (about a third) we do significantly better at retention than do other religions.-- Intellectual doubt arising from information obtained from the Internet and elsewhere is not a major causative factor in the loss of our young people and, when present at all, is apt to be combined with other factors, including, in some cases, the inclination to indulge in behavior incompatible with being a faithful member of the Church.Here is the link to the blog post: http://fornspollfira.blogspot.com/2014/12/why-do-they-leave.html?m=1 I distill it all down to this: A lack of miracles, specifically a lack of miracles in people's lives or obvious ones in those around them. It all comes down to having an intact family with heterosexual parents, family prayer, family dinner, FHE, and a commitment to attend and serve in the Church including Young Men and Young Women activities from an early age. Without those, we don't cultivate the Spirit and hence don't have or we can't see miracles. Hence the assault on the family as we all well know, because that will keep people from exaltation. Someone coming from that basis is far more likely to have the strength and the incentive to overcome boredom or 'intellectual' attacks. 1
Ahab Posted January 8, 2015 Posted January 8, 2015 my point was that just by looking at one program, seeing it across the board- we are placing worldly values over God and religious duty.And my point was that you can't make a valid judgement based on attendance or participation in Church programs or services.
VideoGameJunkie Posted January 8, 2015 Posted January 8, 2015 Some people discover past stuff on the internet like the similarity between the temple endowment and masonry, some of the racist things Brigham Young said, and the lack of BOM era artifacts. So there's a lot on youtube and online that can drive someone away from the church easily. Church history can be very damning to someone's testimony of the church, because several things in the past were wrong or bad, then some figure how can you trust everything else not to be mistakes too?
BCSpace Posted January 9, 2015 Posted January 9, 2015 (edited) Church history can be very damning to someone's testimony of the church, because several things in the past were wrong or bad, then some figure how can you trust everything else not to be mistakes too? I've found through long experience that most, if not all, of the historical criticism of the Church is absolutely not correct. But since most don't get into the history of the Church, it can be hard to defend. I don't or didn't have that much interest in Church history and so it's taken years for me to develop the proper defenses for these criticisms and I've had a lot of help as well. But with all the bad of the internet has come the good, a link in my siggy to defending against polygamy/polyandry criticisms for example. Or fairwiki.org. etc. I have begun to discuss these things in my home and I bring them up in Church on Sundays where possible, especially among the youth, so they hear it from a believer and they hear the defense and the facts more properly presented. It's going to take awhile, but eventually we will all be able to counter this stuff without having to chase anti Mormon rabbits down long and winding holes. Edited January 9, 2015 by BCSpace
cinepro Posted January 9, 2015 Posted January 9, 2015 Not sure if anyone has posted this yet, but this survey was interesting. I don't know what it means for the LDS Church specifically, but it would seem that religions in general risk losing more of their young people by taking conservative stances on issues regarding SSA. Nearly 6-in-10 (58%) Americans agree that religious groups are alienating young people by being too judgmental on gay and lesbian issues. Seven-in-ten (70%) Millennials believe that religious groups are alienating young adults by being too judgmental on gay and lesbian issues. Only among members of the Silent Generation do less than a majority (43%) believe religious groups are alienating young people by being too judgmental about gay and lesbian issues.
Nofear Posted January 9, 2015 Posted January 9, 2015 Not sure if anyone has posted this yet, but this survey was interesting. I don't know what it means for the LDS Church specifically, but it would seem that religions in general risk losing more of their young people by taking conservative stances on issues regarding SSA. A lot of people like to call the Adversary stupid and what not. Evidence suggests that he is a very skilled strategist and capable of the long-con. 1
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