3 Years A Mormon

[Duncan]

I either don't get it, or it's not true.  People have stuff happen to them all the time that impedes on their "agency." 

 

 

that's what I don't get what about the idea of foreordination where say someone was foreordained to be a GA and then say their wife cheated on them and now they can't get called anymore, why would God call them to do it knowing they would get married to that person and knowing how that person reacts under certain circumstances

[Buzzard]

There is a practical application that I think holds true as well-it held even more true back in my fondly remembered union suit days.

Garments are not typical undergarments, that goes without saying. I wonder how many of us hot blooded mortals have been getting all frisky with an attractive member of the opposite gender, and have arrived at a certain point where things were coming off. Suddenly you would realize that what you were about to remove was not a standard issue piece of clothing. Or maybe your perspective partner suddenly got a funny look and said "What in the world are you wearing?". If nothing else, it would bring you up short and make you think for a moment. So garments certainly don't make it impossible to sin, but the constitute a small but certain impediment to bad behavior.

Kind of like getting teenage boys and girls out of town for 18-24 months.

[mfbukowski]

Talk to the temple president about the symbols on the garments. Once you truly get what they represent you will not want to take them off.

[Storm Rider]

I need further light and knowledge about the necessity of wearing garments.

 

Perhaps no Mormon belief/practice was harder for me to embrace than the wearing of garments.  In fact, I was so "spooked" by the idea that I delayed going to the temple until a full-year after the probationary period.

 

Now, I know that for you BICers, this was probably never an issue.  You grew up in households with parents who wear them and its just something you put on in the morning.  Why would you even consider wearing something different?

 

However, I grew up in a community where there was only one type of person who wore institution-selected undergarments -- a convict.  And being subject to an institution that picked out your underwear for you was about the most demeaning thing one could imagine.  In fact, whenever my father suspected that I was becoming enamored with the car or status of a neighborhood hoodlum, he would say something like, "Lil' Ray Ray has a nice car, doesn't he?  Well, just remember, son, that in two years, he's going to be wearing somebody else's underwear."  And this little "reminder" would instantly make his car look less shiny because it came with the ultimate price -- the lack of freedom.

 

Of course, as Mormons, agency is all-important.  Yet, on its face, the garment requirement seems to fly in the face of our theological need to exercise our agency to return to HF.  If we can't be trusted to pick out our own undergarments, then how can HF possibly trust us to choose wisely with respect to an eternal companion, living the law of chastity, tithing, etc.?

 

During temple prep classes, I expressed this concern to my bishop.  Perhaps sensing that at my then pace, I'd be taking out my endowments posthumously, he suggested that I "try out" the garments.  If they cause terrible pestilence (or a rash), I should take them off.  Otherwise, I should use them as the reminder they are meant to be.  And while I haven't suffered any physical ill effects, my "cheerful and rosy" demeanor has suffered.

 

I noticed this a few months ago during the Oscar weekend when I Photoshopped myself and my "handler" (my home teaching companion) into the poster for the eventual best picture winner and entitled it, "3 Years a Mormon."  In hindsight that might have been a heavy-handed way to make the point, but I just couldn't shake the feeling that I didn't end up all that different from Lil' Ray Ray ... and, at least, he got a fancy car out of the deal.

 

Has anyone else wrestled with this requirement?  How did you finally come to grips with it?

 

I never liked garments.  I never considered the idea of someone picking out my underwear meant I not free or that I was forfeiting something of value. It was just not something in my way of thinking.  For me it was all about comfort.  I grew up in the south where it was hot and humid and I felt the less clothes the better for staying cool.  

 

The garment took on a significance of their own; they were more than just underclothing.  They helped me to maintain a spiritual context every day.  Holiness has always had value to me; a goal to pursue. Granted after all these decades I am still a long way from ever either being holy or being considered as holy, but it helped to wear the garment.

 

I think that as you create a new context for the garment and why it is worn you won't think of Lil'Ray Ray and begin to have a new perspective.   

[strappinglad]

Most folks today downplay the protective aspect of garments or focus on a spiritual only protection. My Dad had the scars from a gasoline fire that burned his arms such that he peeled the skin off like a glove. The scars covered his arm up to a clear line where his garment started. Make of that what you will, but Dad was convinced there was a physical aspect also to the promise.

[why me]

 

How do I know that the garment requirement comes from God?

 

I suppose that one doesn't since it all depends on faith. But on the other hand how do I know that the word of wisdom came from god? I suppose that when I received a testimony that the church was true, that would include the word of wisdom too and the wearing of garments. I suppose that it all depends on testimony of truth. Now that being said, I don't wear garments but I have my own reasons for that. So, the decision is eventually left up to you. Do you wear them or not? And do what your heart or mind tell you to do and see what happens. But I can tell you that if you decide not to wear them, you will go about your life without that reminder that you wear that you are a child of god and should behave accordingly.

[Stargazer]

I wasn't a BIC so I know all about the Great Discovery of temple garments.  By the time I went through the temple in preparation for my mission I had already had sufficient run-ins with the Spirit that garments and the entire Endowment experience was not something that intimidated me one bit.  I was endowed in 1972 when there were a few more movements and words that were omitted later.  I guess some people misunderstood those things, which is perhaps why they were eventually omitted, but I understood them implicitly, I don't know why.

 

The other thing is, my garments do not shout in other peoples faces.  Not like the Word of Wisdom does.  I can't tell you how many times I have courteously refused one form of liquid refreshment or other, or declined a smoke or toke.  I used to really like black tea, especially the lovely sweet and tart taste of iced tea.  I gave that up somewhat reluctantly, but with no looking back.  Well, the thing is, having given up coffee and tea (I was too young to legally drink and not stupid enough to smoke) when I committed to the Lord that I would avoid these things, that always seemed a far, far greater sacrifice than the wearing of private sacred vestments.

 

We're not the only ones, you know.  Try this one:

 

http://www.beliefnet.com/Faiths/2008/09/Religious-Underwear.aspx

 

The page this link takes you to does in fact mentions LDS garments after discussing Jewish, Hindu, Catholic, and Sikh private sacred vestments.

 

I don't like to follow the crowd.  If ever I see a crowd going a particular way, I almost always say to myself it is time to go the opposite way.  But what the Lord requires of me, that will I do.

[SamIam]

I need further light and knowledge about the necessity of wearing garments.

 

Perhaps no Mormon belief/practice was harder for me to embrace than the wearing of garments.  In fact, I was so "spooked" by the idea that I delayed going to the temple until a full-year after the probationary period.

 

Now, I know that for you BICers, this was probably never an issue.  You grew up in households with parents who wear them and its just something you put on in the morning.  Why would you even consider wearing something different?

 

However, I grew up in a community where there was only one type of person who wore institution-selected undergarments -- a convict.  And being subject to an institution that picked out your underwear for you was about the most demeaning thing one could imagine.  In fact, whenever my father suspected that I was becoming enamored with the car or status of a neighborhood hoodlum, he would say something like, "Lil' Ray Ray has a nice car, doesn't he?  Well, just remember, son, that in two years, he's going to be wearing somebody else's underwear."  And this little "reminder" would instantly make his car look less shiny because it came with the ultimate price -- the lack of freedom.

 

Of course, as Mormons, agency is all-important.  Yet, on its face, the garment requirement seems to fly in the face of our theological need to exercise our agency to return to HF.  If we can't be trusted to pick out our own undergarments, then how can HF possibly trust us to choose wisely with respect to an eternal companion, living the law of chastity, tithing, etc.?

 

During temple prep classes, I expressed this concern to my bishop.  Perhaps sensing that at my then pace, I'd be taking out my endowments posthumously, he suggested that I "try out" the garments.  If they cause terrible pestilence (or a rash), I should take them off.  Otherwise, I should use them as the reminder they are meant to be.  And while I haven't suffered any physical ill effects, my "cheerful and rosy" demeanor has suffered.

 

I noticed this a few months ago during the Oscar weekend when I Photoshopped myself and my "handler" (my home teaching companion) into the poster for the eventual best picture winner and entitled it, "3 Years a Mormon."  In hindsight that might have been a heavy-handed way to make the point, but I just couldn't shake the feeling that I didn't end up all that different from Lil' Ray Ray ... and, at least, he got a fancy car out of the deal.

 

Has anyone else wrestled with this requirement?  How did you finally come to grips with it?

 

While I could write volumes...just because that is my tendency... I think when you went to the temple the most appropriate response for you is the one that was stated in the temple when it was asked of Adam why he sacrificed.."I know not save the Lord has commanded me. 

 

I'm not making that observation as a means of guilting you or anything else but simply pointing to the symbolic expansion of the principle.  It is not limited to Adams response about sacrifice but it references a principle that all of us must grasp if we are to illustrate our humility before the Lord.  The ability to be obedient even when we cannot figure out why we should is a rare talent and the lack of it is cause for a great deal of grief in peoples testimonies and longevity in the gospel.  So while your questions concerning garment wear does not apply to me directly, it does apply directly to me...in other ways that are equally as significant.  We all find in the gospel expectations that are not easy to grasp and the most profitable way to address these issues is I know not save the Lord has commanded me.  Once you grasp the significance of that answer then every other time something comes up that we are asked to do but know not why, you have discovered the secret to destroying the seeds of doubt, or hubris, or otherwise that the adversary wheedles away on to cause dissatisfaction to well up in us.  In time it has always been the case that I understand just as Adam was taught after he began doing that which he did not understand. 

 

I also am not just saying take and live with it.  Research all you can about it.  Ponder it, seek spiritual direction etc...engage yourself in seeking truth but until understanding is forth coming do not cease being obedient and all will be well.

[mormonnewb]

While I could write volumes...just because that is my tendency... I think when you went to the temple the most appropriate response for you is the one that was stated in the temple when it was asked of Adam why he sacrificed.."I know not save the Lord has commanded me.

I'm not making that observation as a means of guilting you or anything else but simply pointing to the symbolic expansion of the principle. It is not limited to Adams response about sacrifice but it references a principle that all of us must grasp if we are to illustrate our humility before the Lord. The ability to be obedient even when we cannot figure out why we should is a rare talent and the lack of it is cause for a great deal of grief in peoples testimonies and longevity in the gospel. So while your questions concerning garment wear does not apply to me directly, it does apply directly to me...in other ways that are equally as significant. We all find in the gospel expectations that are not easy to grasp and the most profitable way to address these issues is I know not save the Lord has commanded me. Once you grasp the significance of that answer then every other time something comes up that we are asked to do but know not why, you have discovered the secret to destroying the seeds of doubt, or hubris, or otherwise that the adversary wheedles away on to cause dissatisfaction to well up in us. In time it has always been the case that I understand just as Adam was taught after he began doing that which he did not understand.

I also am not just saying take and live with it. Research all you can about it. Ponder it, seek spiritual direction etc...engage yourself in seeking truth but until understanding is forth coming do not cease being obedient and all will be well.

I agree wholeheartedly with you and TRY to obey HF's commandments even when I don't understand them. And that's why I'm looking for further light and knowledge -- to know if the commandment is of God.

[Garden Girl]

Most folks today downplay the protective aspect of garments or focus on a spiritual only protection. My Dad had the scars from a gasoline fire that burned his arms such that he peeled the skin off like a glove. The scars covered his arm up to a clear line where his garment started. Make of that what you will, but Dad was convinced there was a physical aspect also to the promise.

The same thing happened to Wm Marriott... he was being interviewed I believe by Mike Wallace IIRC... Marriott, Steve Young, and one other LDS sports figure (basketball I think).  Anyway, Wallace asked them about the temple garment and if they really believed they were protected by wearing them... Marriott spoke right up and told about the time a fire broke out on his boat and he was burned on his legs right up to where his garments covered his legs.  He told it without apology.

Steve Young was asked if he wore his garments when playing football, and Young said that he didn't wear them during a game because of the blood and dirt.  But as soon as he showered he put them on again... and how his teammates were used to seeing them... and how a new team member saw them and told Steve what neat underwear he was wearing and could he get some like it... and Steve replied that the price was pretty high... Ha!  What impressed me was that each of these men answered the questions regarding wearing of  garments in a positive and respectful manner with no sign of embarassment.

 

GG

[Senator]

I agree wholeheartedly with you and TRY to obey HF's commandments even when I don't understand them. And that's why I'm looking for further light and knowledge -- to know if the commandment is of God.

 

Apologists will quickly denounce that we teach blind obedience. Then, turn around and teach that we actually do.

[wenglund]

I found that reading Joshua 5:2-9 today help me put the alleged woes of wearing garments into perspective.

 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[wenglund]

Apologists will quickly denounce that we teach blind obedience. Then, turn around and teach that we actually do.

 

The only apologist I am aware of that do this are those made of straw.

 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[mormonnewb]

I found that reading Joshua 5:2-9 today help me put the alleged woes of wearing garments into perspective.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Everyone is a comedian!

Yes, circumcision is more demanding than wearing garments. However, the Biblical basis is clear on the matter.

I suspect that, for you, a proclamation from the prophets is on par with a Biblical commandment (in fact, it's probably superior). So what would you do if the prophets received revelation that, from now on, saints must covenant in the temple that they will no longer walk in the customary manner, but must rather hop from place to place (based on something about being "grasshoppers in their sight")?

Would you hop and how high?

And, by the way, the prophets could have a very good earthly reason to do this. In fact, military leaders do this type of thing regularly. They train their recruits to follow seemingly ridiculous orders, and without any apparent justification. Why? Because in the heat of battle, they need people who are TRAINED to follow orders (and not hop on discussion boards to debate the issue endlessly).

In the end, this training saves lives. And given that our leaders are concerned with saving SOULS, this type of training might be seen as even more imperative.

Just a theory ...

Edited May 7, 2014 by mormonnewb

[cinepro]

Apologists will quickly denounce that we teach blind obedience. Then, turn around and teach that we actually do.

 

It's not blind obedience if you know that you're doing it.

[SamIam]

I agree wholeheartedly with you and TRY to obey HF's commandments even when I don't understand them. And that's why I'm looking for further light and knowledge -- to know if the commandment is of God.

 

I appreciate that you took my comments in good stride.  You end with to "know if the commandment is of God" a response that has little to do with Adams response.  It was clear to him the commandment was of God he just didn't understand why...

 

Perhaps I might offer up one more observation based on your experience in the temple.  You will note that in each instance when a question is asked of Adam by the servants who are observing him, that the instant first voice that attempts to respond is that of Satan. He is always Johnny on the spot hoping to get his deceptions in first before the servants of God detect him and cast him out and before Adam has the chance to try out this new thing called agency and consider between good and evil.  As we mature in the gospel we learn there is good reason to generally refrain from implementing our first responses or thoughts to a situation. Our nature, exploited by Satan, tends towards telestial responses.  If someone offends us we want a pound of flesh in return; offend me and I want to offend you with some equivalent response. It can certainly be on a more personal plane such as this is for you. As you have manifest your discomfort there has been a first responder on the scene who hopes you won't notice that he is not trying to cover the sore spot but instead is trying to make it fester. Generally though if we are the striving types we ponder upon the issue for a bit and choose a kinder or more thoughtful response - a more charitable response if you will.  

 

My point in this is that often many of our responses to your question may fall under the same burden of lacking in spiritual considerations for the overwhelming tendency to be mortal.  So as you seek, seek carefully.  Be wary of which side of you a particular response seems to appeal to.  Does it make you wish to sustain Christ and his leaders and organization, or does it leave a bad taste in your mouth about these things. Not all responses will buoy you up and propel you in the direction of the Lord, but may feed what I can detect is a bit of angst in your own soul concerning this matter.  So, ponder carefully, cast away that which seems telestial and proceed to the right and take the first escalator to the next level.

Edited May 8, 2014 by SamIam

[Traela]

I was helping my husband with a temple prep discussion last night. Coincidentally, the subject of garments came up. In the temple prep booklet (about page 21), there is the story of an apostle addressing a multi faith group. He explained that the temple garments could more rightly be considered clerical vestments, which happen to double as underclothing. Perhaps shifting to this view would help.

[Garden Girl]

I was helping my husband with a temple prep discussion last night. Coincidentally, the subject of garments came up. In the temple prep booklet (about page 21), there is the story of an apostle addressing a multi faith group. He explained that the temple garments could more rightly be considered clerical vestments, which happen to double as underclothing. Perhaps shifting to this view would help.

 

Yes... I've never thought of my garments as "underwear" as in the magic underwear referred to by critics, etc.  I hold them as sacred and find that helps my attitude overall regarding the wearing of the garment. 

 

GG

[Raingirl]

Yes... I've never thought of my garments as "underwear" as in the magic underwear referred to by critics, etc.  I hold them as sacred and find that helps my attitude overall regarding the wearing of the garment. 

 

GG

Looking upon garments as underwear has always perplexed me.

I came from Orthodox Judaism, so "unusual" traditions or practices don't really faze me (niddah, etc.) and I am used to the idea of articles of clothing as being sacred. But to me, looking upon the priesthood garment as underwear is....we'll...odd....and that is not how I view my garment wearing. To me, underwear is utilitarian in nature. Garments are something entirely different altogether.

I guess that's as detailed as I can get on this board.

The biggest challenge for me in garment wearing was finding the right combinations of fit and material. It wasn't long before I couldn't imagine NOT wearing garments.

[EllenMaksoud]

2 thoughts:

 

I wasn't sure about the whole garments thing. Yes, my mom wore them most of my life. But I was not a clothes fan. I hated wearing more layers than was necessary. And wearing a pair of garments from here on out seemed like a crazy idea. It wasn't any sense of being forced to do it. It really was, in large part, just my vanity for the most part. But despite my reservations, it was strangely just...easy. I received an immediate testimony of this was what God wanted for me from day 1 of wearing them, both in the temple and immediately after. That's made the transition to them, almost flawless. I've found ones that work for me for different reasons. And on a plus, with the one brand I never have any wedgies....definite plus.

 

And if you think G's are confining to one's behavior/choices, try going on a mission. I mean there's a rule for what bra color you should bring (no joke). And maybe that helped too. I went from G's to mission in a couple months, and suddenly I couldn't wear anything that I would have before the experience. And I think that strangely helped as well.

 

For one I learned the meaning of moral agency. It didn't mean, necessarily, choosing whatever we wanted. It meant choosing between the things of God or not of Him. Garments were the placed symbol of a further covenant (and not a form of punishment, as is prison). And God doesn't want just what's left over of us at the end of the day...He wants all of us. To consciously allow that submission to him, each day, was a nice reminder of it.  

 

On the other note, I also learned what true freedom was on my mission. There were so many rules to follow. So MANY nuanced rules that could easily be confining. But I came to give up my whole heart and didn't seek much reasons to break any rule that I was expected to follow. No one was necessarily monitoring my behavior. But I'd "given up" 1.5 yrs to the Lord to what had been a pretty good life and I wasn't going to do anything to belittle that. And yet midway through, I realized I had never been more free in my life. The pain that I'd buried had been drudged up....and then taken away. Because I sought obedience, He could clean the parts of my soul that i'd kept hidden...even from myself. And He mended me to a point where I realized I was finally completely at peace as a person. By that point I didn't really feel like i sacrificed much at all. I'd received what I truly needed in spades. There was no way I could pay it back....nothing that could have done such a complete job. Nothing. 

 

At this points, I don't like leaving without garments. I feel naked/exposed. It is a temple expectation, but - just like the sense of giving up for my mission - the sense of expectation has moved to gift and reminder of exactly who I am to God.  

 

 

With luv,

BD

It is interesting that you would feel exposed without your garments. In coming out of Islam,  I felt the same leaving my Hijab at home.