Do the “unworthy” have a duty? (Witnessing temple attire in a funeral)

[MiserereNobis]

35 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Read this

https://byustudies.byu.edu/content/catholic-liturgy-and-mormon-temple

I just read the abstract and definitely will read the article.  The ideas expressed in the abstract are the same ideas which led me to faith in the first place.  It made me think of Huston Smith's book "Forgotten Truth."

Thanks for sharing.

[Meerkat]

9 hours ago, RevTestament said:

Here is the pertinent warning strait from the Board guidelines:

"Do not post sacred LDS temple content or links to LDS temple content
• Do not use offensive terms for things others hold sacred"

I side with Rev Testament, but for additional reasons.  Many LDS, worthy and not so worthy, are true believers in the religion. The usually do, or should, desire to help Temple worthy members keep their sacred covenants.  Non Members are free to discuss what they will.

The Savior explained why he taught in parablessing in Matthew  13:13 "Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
15 For this people’s heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them."

We don't joke or speculate about sacred Temple subjects because we follow Christ's teachings about discussing sacred things.  Plus, we do not wish to make those who are not Temple worthy more accountable than they are prepared or want to be. I could be wrong, but I believe most active members wish to live by that honor code.

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, MiserereNobis said:

I just read the abstract and definitely will read the article.  The ideas expressed in the abstract are the same ideas which led me to faith in the first place.  It made me think of Huston Smith's book "Forgotten Truth."

Thanks for sharing.

It is necessary to understand that what is described in the article would be instantly obvious in similarity to a Mormon, though if you were not Mormon you would not see it as a Mormon because you do not know what happens in the temple.

So the author is able to make his point about the similarities of the temple rites with the Catholic rites without ever saying "this is what happens in the temple".   He preserves respect for his tradition by not exposing it- and yet the similarities just pop out as totally obvious to a Mormon who knows our rites.

For example, Mormons have an ordinance in which certain parts of the body are annointed- which closely parallels early Christian baptismal rituals like this one described.

This is obvious to Mormons in the description of confirmation in the Coptic Orthodox Christian Church.  The ceremonies of the Copts are among the oldest Christian ceremonies still practiced today

Typically Mormons flip out when I post this because of the parallels we instantly recognize, but of course you would not recognize.   So read the article as a clue to what happens in our temple.   He doesn't cite any ceremonies in Catholicism which are not paralleled for us.  This was one of the totally shocking things I noticed when I first entered the temple- the number of "Catholic" symbols in the liturgy.  I once also had the opportunity to discuss this with a Mormon temple worker who had once been a Catholic priest.   We would talk about the parallels for hours.

How could Joseph have know about these ceremonies and what they meant?   He couldn't.

But for the Mormons, here is a portion of the Coptic Confirmation rite.   It is lengthy so of course what is here is only an excerpt.

Quote

 

He anoints The Head to sanctify it. The head contains the brain, where thinking takes place. It is the brain which distinguishes humankind from other creatures. A good mind is of great use and benefit to oneself and to others also. King Solomon praises the mind saying, �When wisdom enters your heart and knowledge is pleasant to your soul, discretion will preserve you, understanding will keep you, to deliver from the way evil� (Proverbs 2: 10-12).

 

Also, the Lord Jesus praised the young man who answered wisely and said to him: �You are not far from the Kingdom of God�  (Mark 12:34). And St. Paul our teacher prays for us saying, �And the peace of God which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus� (Philippians 4:7).

 

The Nostrils contain the sense of smell, and it is an important sense, for if a person is not careful and alert, it is possible for impure thoughts to enter ones heart through this sense. Hence, the priest anoints it to protect it against all sin and lust.

 

The Mouth with the tongue is the most dangerous organ in a person...

 

�If anyone among you thinks he is religious, and does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this one�s religion is useless�  (James 1:26).

 

�If anyone does not stumble in word, he is a perfect man, able also to bridle the whole body" (James 3:2).

 

�The tongue is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison, it defiles the whole body and sets on fire the course of nature, and it is set on fire by hell� (James 3:8,6), if it is not controlled.

 

The Psalmist prays, �Set a guard O Lord, over my mouth. Keep watch over the door of my lips.  Do not incline my heart to any evil thing� (Psalm 141:3,4)

And the wise King Solomon said: �Whoever guards his mouth and tongue keeps his soul from troubles� (Proverbs 21:23), and, �Put away from you a deceitful mouth, and put perverse lips far from you� (Proverbs 4:24.  We ought to keep our tongue from sins such as swearing, insulting, lying, judging, and gossiping. Our words should always be graceful.

The Ears provide us with the important sense of hearing, which should also be controlled, and the anointing of the Myron is a strong weapon in control what we hear. We protect our ears from hearing such things as gossip, and other conversations which may poison our hearts with revenge and hatred. We also protect our ears from hearing certain songs which may poison our hearts with lustful thoughts.

 

The Eyes are the most important sense, through which enters more than 80% of information which may affect our hearts. If the information is holy, it sanctifies the heart, and vice versa. For this reason, we should control what we see so that we may keep ourselves pure. The tenth commandment says, �Do not covet�. The Psalmist prays, �Turn away my eyes from looking at worthless things� (Psalm 119:37), and, �Open my eyes, that I may see wondrous things from Your law�  (Psalm 119:17).

 

The second group of four anointments are as follows :

 

The priest wets his right thumb with the Myron another time and anoints,

The heart (chest)

The navel

The back

The lower back

Whilst anointing the priest prays : �An anointment as a token for the kingdom of heaven," as this holy anointment makes the Holy Spirit works in us and prepares us for the inheritance of the Kingdom of heaven.

 

http://copticchurch.net/topics/thecopticchurch/sacraments/2_confirmation.html

 

Edited June 2, 2017 by mfbukowski

[thesometimesaint]

11 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

For the most part, modern Christianity has shed itself of deep symbolism and ritual.  Do you think that this could be a reason why people might not understand LDS temple symbolism?  I'm just thinking that if someone who has had little exposure to religious symbolism is suddenly hit with something intensely deep, they might not get it because of their lack of exposure, not necessarily their lack of worthiness or preparation.  It's like handing a high-schooler "Crime and Punishment" and when they don't get it, blaming them for their lack of intelligence, when in fact high Russian literature is so deeply complicated that it requires some good study to understand it.  I have been to LDS Sunday meetings and know they are quite devoid of symbolism and ritual, so maybe a Mormon's normal religious experience doesn't prepare them for the temple, but you would be the expert on that, not I.

I don't know the Mormon temple ceremony and I haven't looked online, though I must admit I have been sorely tempted because of threads and issues here, but I do attend a traditional Latin High Mass every Sunday and holy day of obligation, so I am familiar with deep religious symbolism.  I'm also familiar with people not getting it, which is usually my way of understanding why people might not connect to a Latin High Mass -- they don't get the intensity of the symbolism and what it is trying to teach us about God, most likely due to the lack of intense symbolism in current Christianity.  As an example, the Novus Ordo Mass (the Catholic Mass that was promulgated in 1970 and is the Mass that almost all Catholics experience) has stripped away so much symbolism that was in the traditional Mass, making it more modern and, in my opinion (and 3DOP's, too, I'm sure), a lesser offering to God.

As to your final idea, that holds true in Catholicism, too.  When someone leaves, they seem to forget the experiences they had and seem to lose their connection with the mysteries of God.  God indeed keeps His mysteries.

LDS Sunday services are not devoid on symbolism. Our Sacrament(Eucharist) is full of symbolism. It represents the Last Supper. The broken bread symbolizes Christs broken body. The water his life's blood spent. Even the cloths on the alter represent to burial clothes of Jesus who is the Christ. We take upon ourselves his beautiful name, renounce our sins, and pledge to our lives to become more like him.

[MiserereNobis]

2 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said:

LDS Sunday services are not devoid on symbolism. Our Sacrament(Eucharist) is full of symbolism. It represents the Last Supper. The broken bread symbolizes Christs broken body. The water his life's blood spent. Even the cloths on the alter represent to burial clothes of Jesus who is the Christ. We take upon ourselves his beautiful name, renounce our sins, and pledge to our lives to become more like him.

I didn't necessarily mean it as a criticism, since I'm not LDS, but as an observation.  Perhaps I should have said "almost entirely devoid of symbolism."  Obviously I don't discount what you are saying, but that is pretty meager symbolism when compared to traditional (non-protestant) Christianity, like Catholicism or Orthodoxy, especially when that is 15 minutes of a 3 hour Sunday service.

Is there anything else symbolic during Sunday services that I might have missed?

[thesometimesaint]

The Last Supper of Jesus probably wasn't a long affair. But be kind to this old man's old bones. Sitting in one spot for 3 hrs isn't my idea of a pleasant experience.

[Calm]

1 hour ago, MiserereNobis said:

I didn't necessarily mean it as a criticism, since I'm not LDS, but as an observation.  Perhaps I should have said "almost entirely devoid of symbolism."  Obviously I don't discount what you are saying, but that is pretty meager symbolism when compared to traditional (non-protestant) Christianity, like Catholicism or Orthodoxy, especially when that is 15 minutes of a 3 hour Sunday service.

Is there anything else symbolic during Sunday services that I might have missed?

There is a lot of verbal symbolism in our hymns, but not really any other ceremonial rituals beyondl baby blessings and those have minimal actions and words that must be done in order to be considered valid.

[mfbukowski]

2 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

I didn't necessarily mean it as a criticism, since I'm not LDS, but as an observation.  Perhaps I should have said "almost entirely devoid of symbolism."  Obviously I don't discount what you are saying, but that is pretty meager symbolism when compared to traditional (non-protestant) Christianity, like Catholicism or Orthodoxy, especially when that is 15 minutes of a 3 hour Sunday service.

Is there anything else symbolic during Sunday services that I might have missed?

Nah.

Of course there is the walk to the Sunday School room, symbolizing life's journey toward knowledge while kids run around your feet- does that count? 

Edited June 2, 2017 by mfbukowski

[cinepro]

20 hours ago, USU78 said:

5S, when I was in Austria on my mission, we had to use a public laundry. There was no laundromat and our apartment had no laundry.

One day the launderer decided to put a set of temple garments on a double hanger in the window with a sign identifying what they were and generally mocking them.

Years later when I was working in downtown SLC, a woman would wear temple ritual wear while hawking her brand of evangelical antimormon mockery.

You ask today a reasonable question about either day to day temple garments or the ritual gear worn during the endowment presentation in the temple.

One of these things is not like the other.

One of these behaviors ends up with you getting answers and not anger.

You forgot the part about the laundromat burning to the ground a week later...and arson investigators never determined a cause.  

Edited June 2, 2017 by cinepro

[cinepro]

5 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

I didn't necessarily mean it as a criticism, since I'm not LDS, but as an observation.  Perhaps I should have said "almost entirely devoid of symbolism."  Obviously I don't discount what you are saying, but that is pretty meager symbolism when compared to traditional (non-protestant) Christianity, like Catholicism or Orthodoxy, especially when that is 15 minutes of a 3 hour Sunday service.

Is there anything else symbolic during Sunday services that I might have missed?

It's my understanding that the three-hour block schedule was meant to teach us about eternity.

[USU78]

1 hour ago, cinepro said:

You forgot the part about the laundromat burning to the ground a week later...and arson investigators never determined a cause.  

No such thing happened. Do you also doubt the existence of crazy temple clothes lady?

I made the mistake of speaking to her once. Felt sorry for her. She took my consoling tones as permission to rant.

[boblloyd91]

22 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

Do you think this might be a result of the cultural protestant background of the LDS church? I know we've talked about that here before, when it comes to thinking of the Catholic Church as the whore of Babylon, etc.  I could see another connection in the lack of symbolic teaching, too, since protestants tended to jettison symbolism and ritual because they saw it as too connected to Catholicism (and in their view paganism, etc).

A possible tangent: could this also be a reason why LDS Sunday services are minimalist when it comes to symbolism and ritual?

ETA: I'm interested in this because, as I've shared elsewhere, it was symbolism that first brought me to Catholicism.

I actually think you hit the nail on the head. It's interesting that in many ways LDS theology and practice is closer to Catholicism/Orthodoxy, however having developed in 19th century New England there are bound to be some cultural influences. 

[boblloyd91]

5 hours ago, cinepro said:

You forgot the part about the laundromat burning to the ground a week later...and arson investigators never determined a cause.  

I was going to say that but you beat me to it! That and having to cast out demons from faith healers in different religions seem to be perennial urban legends.

[RevTestament]

6 hours ago, cinepro said:

It's my understanding that the three-hour block schedule was meant to teach us about eternity.

Especially if it is the 1-4pm block...oh I dread next year.

[Five Solas]

On 6/1/2017 at 11:49 PM, Meerkat said:

I side with Rev Testament, but for additional reasons.  Many LDS, worthy and not so worthy, are true believers in the religion. The usually do, or should, desire to help Temple worthy members keep their sacred covenants.  Non Members are free to discuss what they will.

The Savior explained why he taught in parablessing in Matthew  13:13 "Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
15 For this people’s heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them."

We don't joke or speculate about sacred Temple subjects because we follow Christ's teachings about discussing sacred things.  Plus, we do not wish to make those who are not Temple worthy more accountable than they are prepared or want to be. I could be wrong, but I believe most active members wish to live by that honor code.

For what it's worth, I think you've offered the most coherent arguments on the thread (and I read all of them), Meerkat.  We all have some responsibility to help one another ("Am I my brother's keeper?" was asked & answered a long time ago).  And by not discussing temple attire, the temple unworthy thereby "help temple worthy members" by not potentially luring them into public discussion and therein breaking their "sacred covenants."

And further, the prohibition serves to protect the temple unworthy from themselves, by not making them "accountable" for more than they can withstand.  Viewed as you've expressed it, the restriction is properly understood as a generosity.  Indeed, you might even say it's an illustration of grace (a word that means unmerited favor) towards unworthy members, and perhaps others.   

I suspect that if you'd seen this earlier and posted your thoughts on page 1 instead of page 3, we would have seen more LDS votes for option 1.

Back on page 1, Miserere Nobis expressed curiosity there could be a public viewing of temple attire along with a prohibition against discussing what was seen (e.g., the rules of this forum, the example of that previous thread).  It would be interesting to hear from him (or any others who may have wondered the same) whether your explanations have satisfied & resolved such curiosity. 

--Erik

PS.  We're practically neighbors (I'm in the U-District, about a mile or so East of Woodland Park Zoo).  We should get "coffee" sometime.  Send me a message if you're interested. 

:0)

[Avatar4321]

Why are you so obsessed with unworthiness?

[Five Solas]

1 hour ago, Avatar4321 said:

Why are you so obsessed with unworthiness?

I don't think obsession is the right term, but I do think our words and labels make a difference.  And I also think this is worth exploring.  So for you & any others who wish to discuss & debate the worthy/unworthy dichotomy--I've created a new thread to do just that:

Let's please keep this thread about whether those who are temple unworthy or not worthy (or whatever else you may wish to call them) have some duty to those who are temple worthy (or again, the euphemism of your choice) with regards to publicly discussing temple attire. 

To get us back on topic, I'm really curious what folks think of Meerkat's argument that I summarized above.  He clearly thinks the answer is yes and makes of couple of interesting arguments to that effect.

--Erik

[hagoth7]

1 hour ago, Five Solas said:

Let's please keep this thread about whether those who are temple unworthy or not worthy...

Meh.

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/nt/luke/18.10-13?lang=eng#p9

Edited June 5, 2017 by hagoth7

[Five Solas]

9 hours ago, hagoth7 said:

Meh.

Point taken. 

Going forward on this thread I will simply refer to them as Temple Recommend Qualified (TRQ) and Temple Recommend Non-Qualified (TRNQ).  That should hopefully drain any & all emotion attached to those previous words I was using. 

And the question remains (and I do hope we can find our way back to it): Do the TRNQ have a duty, a responsibility to the TRQ to refrain from discussing temple attire in public forums, including this one?  And if so, what is the basis for that responsibility?  Meerkat made a couple of pretty interesting arguments (see above).  Any further thoughts out there?

--Erik

[hagoth7]

1 hour ago, Five Solas said:

...Do the TRNQ have a duty, a responsibility to the TRQ to refrain from discussing temple attire in public forums, including this one?

Not if one's duty to other sheep, including the one, outweighs the needs of the 99.

https://paulsarmstrong.com/2016/05/08/spock-the-needs-of-the-many/

Edited June 5, 2017 by hagoth7

[hagoth7]

How are things like this gonna be fulfiled...http://biblehub.com/isaiah/56-7.htm....if we don't lift our lamp a wee bit higher, and let our light so shine?

[hagoth7]

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/ot/isa/11.9,12-14?lang=eng#p8

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/ot/isa/27.13?lang=eng#p12

Edited June 5, 2017 by hagoth7

[hagoth7]

 

[hagoth7]

49 minutes ago, hagoth7 said:

Bellringer humor.

[HappyJackWagon]

I'm reading a lot of comments that imply "covenants" have been made not to discuss the temple attire. There is no such covenant. It doesn't exist. Therefore IMO censorship of the topic only creates a taboo that everyone thinks is important to avoid. It's a cultural restriction, not a doctrinal or covenantal restriction.

The prohibition about talking about temple attire (not including specific symbols that represent signs) are manufactured restrictions. The board can set whatever restrictions it wants for discussions on the board but that doesn't mean that discussion of temple attire is improper, inappropriate, or breaking some kind of covenant. It's a board policy. That's all.