Garments and Scapulars

[mfbukowski]

When I was a nice little Catholic altar boy, I was taught that I should wear the "brown scapular" which on one side had some religious symbols, and on the other side it had some brown cloth.

I was told that it represented a garment like the habit of Catholic "Brothers" ("monks" to non-Catholics though that is a very vague term which really doesn't grasp all the nuances) and Catholic "Sisters" ("nuns" to non-Catholics- but that is at least as vague as "monks" is, and barely scratches the surface of all that is entailed)

I thought that was VERY cool that I could be a "kind of Brother" even as a kid and resolved to be extra good to live up to the promise I had made to God.

Later I studied Mormonism and thought it weird that everyone called each other "brother" and "sister", then I found out that they too wore a special kind of garment like the habit of monks and nuns.

Then suddenly it became reasonable.  Mormons also wore special clothing and were all kind of like monks and nuns who made covenants with God.

So the parallels instead of being something "weird" suddenly became very comforting to me, and I could not wait to get to the temple to get my very own "garment"

But I know that many here are not aware of scapulars, though I have mentioned them in passing before and since we have some Catholics who visit here,  I thought it might be fun to discuss.   No Protest-ants please.  (Just kidding  )

Catholics also believe that scapulars offer a kind of spiritual protection for wearing them, which also parallels a Mormon belief about garments.

http://m.ncregister.com/daily-news/put-on-our-ladys-protection-with-the-brown-scapular#.WkwHvtWnHrd

 

Quote

 

Put on Our Lady’s Protection With the Brown Scapular

Posted by Joseph Pronechen on Sunday Jul 16th, 2017 at 9:13 AM

History lesson for the feast day of Our Lady of Mount Carmel.

On May 13, 1981, after Pope St. John Paul II was shot, his thoughts were focused on his Brown Scapular, a sacramental consisting of two small pieces of cloth attached with string or cloth and worn so that the cloths hang down across the chest and back, with the bands across the shoulders, as a reminder to live a Christian life. 

“Just before the Holy Father was operated on, he told the doctors, ‘Don’t take off the scapular.’ And the surgeons left it on,” Father Mariano Cera reported in Inside the Vaticanmagazine.

John Paul II’s devotion to the scapular began in childhood. Later, a photo taken during a work break with co-workers shows young factory worker Karol Wojtyla wearing a very visible scapular.

The Church celebrates the feast of Our Lady of Mount Carmel — and the scapular — each July 16. On this date in 1251 Mary appeared to St. Simon Stock in Aylesford, England.

“Take this scapular: It shall be a sign of salvation, a protection in danger and a pledge of peace. Whosoever dies wearing this scapular shall not suffer eternal fire,” our Blessed Mother promised the holy prior general of the Carmelite order.

Our Lady gave the scapular to the whole world, so that all her children can wear this “habit” as an outward sign of her love for them.

Garment With Message

The scapular “is a tangible symbol and sacramental of the deeper reality of Mary clothing and protecting us with her own mantle,” explained Carmelite Father Justin Francis Cinnante at the National Shrine of Our Lady of Mount Carmel (Carmelites.com). “It’s a sign of consecration to the Immaculate Heart of Mary and that Mary will assure the salvation of those devoted to her.”

He illustrated such protection with several stories. During a senior retreat at a high school last September, Father Cinnante gave students scapulars through an “enrollment.” Two days later, the campus minister told him that night a deer ran into the path of a senior driving home. His car ran into a ditch and rolled over twice. A policeman said he never saw someone survive such an accident. But the young man walked away without even a scratch.

“It’s not just physical miracles that take place under Our Lady’s mantle,” Father Cinnante added, “but how many times we’re protected from the evil one through the scapular.”

Terri Raciti, a devotee of the scapular and headmistress of St. Therese Classical Academy in Chester, New York, tells of a recent grace she attributes to the scapular. “We had a beautiful thing happen with a grandfather who converted on his deathbed,” she said. “When he was dying, we had him enrolled in the scapular. That was a blessing to us.” The family thanked Mary, because, she said, “for whoever is devoted to her, she would be our advocate in heaven.”

At St. Therese Classical Academy, Terri sees that the schoolchildren pray the Rosary daily and are enrolled in the scapular after their first Holy Communion.

In a letter to the Carmelites, St. John Paul II wrote, “There are two truths which the sign of the scapular brings out: On the one hand, there is the continuous protection of the Blessed Virgin, not only along the pathways of this life, but also at the moment of passing into the fullness of eternal glory; on the other hand, there is the awareness that devotion towards Our Lady cannot be limited to the occasional prayer in her honor, but must become a ‘habit,’ that is, a permanent way of Christian living, made up of prayer and the interior life, frequent recourse to the sacraments and the concrete exercise of the corporal and spiritual works of mercy.”

In other words, people should not view the scapular as an avoid-hell-and-get-into-heaven-free cloth that excuses living a Christian life. 

That’s why, along with being enrolled in the scapular and wearing it always, the conditions include daily Marian devotion, such as the Rosary, and observing chastity in one’s state in life. 

As Father Cinnante explained, “We’re putting on Christ, basically, when we wear the scapular or scapular medal (which St. Pius X, who wore a scapular, permitted). We ask her protection … and imitate the virtues of our Blessed Mother to ultimately put on Christ.”

 

Sister Lucia Confirms

In 1950, Carmelite Father Kilian Lynch, the prior of Aylesford, traveled to the Carmel of Coimbra, Portugal, to speak with Fatima seer Servant of God Lucia dos Santos about the scapular and its place and meaning at Fatima. In his book Our Lady of Fatima and the Brown Scapular, he recounts two major conversations other Carmelite priests had with her on the same question.

In 1949, Father Donald O’Callaghan asked Lucia for her interpretation of Our Lady coming as Our Lady of Mount Carmel.  She answered that “the scapular devotion was pleasing to Our Lady and that she desired it to be propagated.” The priest asked “if she thought the scapular was a part of the Fatima message. She answered, ‘Most definitely, the scapular and the Rosary are inseparable. The scapular is a sign of consecration to Our Lady.’”

Sister Lucia was firm with Carmelite Father Howard Rafferty on the Solemnity of the Assumption in 1950: “Our Lady wants all to wear the scapular.’”

She added: “[T]he Holy Father has already told this to the whole world, saying that the scapular is a sign of consecration to the Immaculate Heart. Nobody can disagree now.”

 

Garment for All

Terri Raciti, her husband, Gregory, and their four daughters, ages 12 to 18, are frequent visitors of the National Shrine of Our Lady of Mount Carmel and all are enrolled in the scapular.

“I found it a beautiful witness to Our Lady of Mount Carmel,” Terri says of the family’s devotion.

Eighteen-year-old daughter Sara said the scapular means a lot to her “because I consecrated myself to Our Lady, and the scapular is one of the main ways I show true devotion to her. … I love the thought of the scapular, being under Our Lady’s protection, having her mantle on us and her being our advocate. We make sure we’re all wearing scapulars.”

The youth groups meeting in the Raciti home learn about devotion to Our Lady and are enrolled in the scapular by Father Cinnante.

“It has kept our family close together and not afraid” to talk about the faith, Terri explained. “When curious people ask: ‘What’s that brown string?’ we show them the scapular. It’s a witness and a ministry, as well, to the people who encounter us.”

 

Joseph Pronechen is a Register staff writer.

 

INFORMATION

ScapularConfraternity.weebly.com

 

 

 

 

[Robert F. Smith]

Wow.  I had no idea.

[kiwi57]

3DOP has talked about the Brown Scapular here previously.

[CV75]

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

Catholics also believe that scapulars offer a kind of spiritual protection for wearing them, which also parallels a Mormon belief about garments.

I did a quick review of Islamic and Jewish religious clothing, and found no parallel for divine protection in wearing them, so this is a fairly unique feature, it seems.

I don't think i will share the sacrilege I committed during my abbreviated tenure as an Episcopal acolyte, but that's Protestant anyway... Let's just say those robes tear pretty easily.

Edited January 3, 2018 by CV75

[theplains]

On 02/01/2018 at 5:38 PM, mfbukowski said:

Catholics also believe that scapulars offer a kind of spiritual protection for wearing them, which also parallels a Mormon belief about garments.

Which scripture(s) is used by Mormons to show garments offer spiritual protection by wearing them?

Thanks,
Jim

[JLHPROF]

3 minutes ago, theplains said:

Which scripture(s) is used by Mormons to show garments offer spiritual protection by wearing them?

Thanks,
Jim

The Armor of God in scripture is seen as a metaphor for the garment and temple clothing in Mormonism.

And Ephesians 6:6 states

• 16 Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.

Other than that, scripture isn't really relevant to the issue, as not everything is contained within the scriptures in the first place.

[3DOP]

On 1/2/2018 at 3:40 PM, kiwi57 said:

3DOP has talked about the Brown Scapular here previously.

Have I? I do not recall, but I believe you. I would never deliberately go without it, except within reason.

The Carmelites have a brown habit. I think the Brown Scapular is intended to resemble a Carmelite habit. I met a guy once who said he never, ever takes it off. I have had surgery on my neck and I would recommend its removal under that circumstance so that it doesn't get tangled up in the instruments of the surgeon. I doubt he had had neck surgery. That will make you think. But he said he wore it in the shower. Do Carmelites wear their habits when they bathe, or do they disrobe? Anyway...as I understand it...the blessings attached to "sacramentals" as Catholics call them, has more to do with the good faith of the one who observes the usage, than to a rigorous and possibly ridiculous belief in its "power" apart from obedience to the revealed commandments of God. Sadly, from a reliable report, this same fellow took off with about a thousand dollars loaned to him by some old folks who wanted to help him out. If this is true and remains unrecompensed, I fear that his "faithful" adherence to the Brown Scapular will avail him little in that terrible day when we answer for everything.

l suppose it still cannot but sound superstitious to ears unused to hearing about it, but I have to hope to at least get out of purgatory on the First Saturday after I die, assuming I persevere with faith in the promises attached to the proper observance of the Brown Scapular.

Catholics think God likes matter...after all He made it (as we believe). He employs matter to save beings made out of matter. A lot of our Protestant friends seem uncomfortable with this. Ultimately, I think this is why they object to the salvific effects of water in baptism. Of course I think you guys are messed up too in other ways. But we agree I hope, about the idea that it is appropriate that God would employ consecrated matter to save souls that are made out of matter. The Catholic definition of the soul...whether the soul of a plant, the soul of a brute animal, or the soul of a rational animal is this: "The principle of life in a material being." 

[mfbukowski]

4 hours ago, theplains said:

Which scripture(s) is used by Mormons to show garments offer spiritual protection by wearing them?

Thanks,
Jim

The ordinance is performed in the temple and is regarded as scripture 

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, 3DOP said:

Have I? I do not recall, but I believe you. I would never deliberately go without it, except within reason.

The Carmelites have a brown habit. I think the Brown Scapular is intended to resemble a Carmelite habit. I met a guy once who said he never, ever takes it off. I have had surgery on my neck and I would recommend its removal under that circumstance so that it doesn't get tangled up in the instruments of the surgeon. I doubt he had had neck surgery. That will make you think. But he said he wore it in the shower. Do Carmelites wear their habits when they bathe, or do they disrobe? Anyway...as I understand it...the blessings attached to "sacramentals" as Catholics call them, has more to do with the good faith of the one who observes the usage, than to a rigorous and possibly ridiculous belief in its "power" apart from obedience to the revealed commandments of God. Sadly, from a reliable report, this same fellow took off with about a thousand dollars loaned to him by some old folks who wanted to help him out. If this is true and remains unrecompensed, I fear that his "faithful" adherence to the Brown Scapular will avail him little in that terrible day when we answer for everything.

l suppose it still cannot but sound superstitious to ears unused to hearing about it, but I have to hope to at least get out of purgatory on the First Saturday after I die, assuming I persevere with faith in the promises attached to the proper observance of the Brown Scapular.

Catholics think God likes matter...after all He made it (as we believe). He employs matter to save beings made out of matter. A lot of our Protestant friends seem uncomfortable with this. Ultimately, I think this is why they object to the salvific effects of water in baptism. Of course I think you guys are messed up too in other ways. But we agree I hope, about the idea that it is appropriate that God would employ consecrated matter to save souls that are made out of matter. The Catholic definition of the soul...whether the soul of a plant, the soul of a brute animal, or the soul of a rational animal is this: "The principle of life in a material being." 

Don't know if you saw the link, but the story is that when the Pope was shot, he insisted on having his scapular on during the surgery to remove the bullet.

My family actually has a document from Pius XII promising us a plenary indulgence upon death if we utter the name of Jesus, so dude, I've got it all covered anyway. 

 

[Five Solas]

2 hours ago, 3DOP said:

...

l suppose it still cannot but sound superstitious to ears unused to hearing about it, but I have to hope to at least get out of purgatory on the First Saturday after I die, assuming I persevere with faith in the promises attached to the proper observance of the Brown Scapular.

Catholics think God likes matter...after all He made it (as we believe). He employs matter to save beings made out of matter. A lot of our Protestant friends seem uncomfortable with this.

...

As a Protestant, let me affirm you, 3DOP:  It *does* sound superstitious.  And it does make me uncomfortable. 

A few years back I recall you and I had an exchange on the forum (we've had several, but this would have been early days).  I forget our topic exactly, but among other things I shared my uncle had converted from Mormonism to the Roman Catholic Church.  And you expressed your intent in a way that has stuck with me since--to the effect that through your words you wished to point me "to Rome." 

And far from being annoyed at your blatant proselytization, I'll admit I was kind of pleased and even flattered by it.  And I had no doubt of your sincerity. 

But there's no such thing as purgatory in Scripture.  Your faith in the person & work of Christ is what saves you from the wrath of God against sin.  God didn't save rebels by "employing matter"--He saved us by sacrificing his son, Jesus.  In our place, for our sins.  To imagine that Christ's work is somehow inadequate, that you need to suffer a bit personally to make yourself right--well, it makes light of the cross, how could it not?

And if you feel it is I now proselytizing to you--well, a turnabout is fair play, is it not?

:0)

--Erik

[Storm Rider]

When I was in the Middle East I had several friends that were relatively devout Catholics.  As I recall it was Ash Wednesday when he gave me a Brown Scapular and he asked that I wear it.  After studying about it I found that I was more than happy to wear it though the devotion to Mary was something I did not have, I found the offer to wear the Brown Scapular very charitable.  I wore it for several months, but it eventually disintegrated.  

It has been my belief that LDS and Catholics will stand together in the last days against the Evil One.  There is far more that unites us than that which separates us.  

Edited January 25, 2018 by Storm Rider

[theplains]

On 23/01/2018 at 11:06 PM, mfbukowski said:

The ordinance is performed in the temple and is regarded as scripture 

What do non-temple going Mormons rely on for spiritual protection since they don't have special garments?

Thanks,
Jim

[JLHPROF]

5 minutes ago, theplains said:

What do non-temple going Mormons rely on for spiritual protection since they don't have special garments?

Faith.

Faith has power in and of itself in a similar fashion to priesthood.

[pogi]

1 hour ago, theplains said:

What do non-temple going Mormons rely on for spiritual protection since they don't have special garments?

Thanks,
Jim

They have their choice of either a Jupiter talisman or a CTR ring. 

[3DOP]

On 1/23/2018 at 10:00 PM, Five Solas said:

As a Protestant, let me affirm you, 3DOP:  It *does* sound superstitious.  And it does make me uncomfortable. 

A few years back I recall you and I had an exchange on the forum (we've had several, but this would have been early days).  I forget our topic exactly, but among other things I shared my uncle had converted from Mormonism to the Roman Catholic Church.  And you expressed your intent in a way that has stuck with me since--to the effect that through your words you wished to point me "to Rome." 

And far from being annoyed at your blatant proselytization, I'll admit I was kind of pleased and even flattered by it.  And I had no doubt of your sincerity. 

But there's no such thing as purgatory in Scripture.  Your faith in the person & work of Christ is what saves you from the wrath of God against sin.  God didn't save rebels by "employing matter"--He saved us by sacrificing his son, Jesus.  In our place, for our sins.  To imagine that Christ's work is somehow inadequate, that you need to suffer a bit personally to make yourself right--well, it makes light of the cross, how could it not?

And if you feel it is I now proselytizing to you--well, a turnabout is fair play, is it not?

:0)

--Erik

Hi Erik.

I hold that Christ's work is "somehow inadequate". It is not God's will that his Only Begotten Son should suffer, while His Adopted Sons and Daughters should fail to imitate Jesus by taking up their own crosses. It falls to God's other children to suffer as Jesus did, either for their own, or better, for the sins of their brethren. This is the way that the sufferings of Christ are "somehow inadequate." As Christ's Body, we cannot suffer the eternal punishment for sins that merit separation from God. But that leaves plenty of wood, hay, and stubble that can clutter up the foundation of Christ in our lives. St. Paul wrote to the Colossians saying how he "rejoice(s) in my sufferings for you, and fill(s) up those things that are wanting of the sufferings of Christ." (Col. 1:24)

Obviously Christ's atoning work was infinite, so how can anything be "wanting in the sufferings of Christ"? The Apostle believes that a progress in the sufferings of Christ remains to be fulfilled by God's regenerated sons and daughters. He rejoices to help "fill up those things that are wanting."

Many Protestants deny that there are sins that kill the life of grace in the soul, what Catholics call "mortal sin", as well as lesser sins, which dispose us to commit greater sins, but which do not kill God's life in us. These are the sins which we call venial, and these are the only ones which the Body of Christ is called upon to suffer for. St. John makes the distinction in I Jn 5:16, 17: "He that knoweth his brother to sin a sin which is not to death, let him ask , and life shall be given to him, who sinneth not to death. There is a sin unto death: for that I say not that any man ask. All iniquity is sin. And there is a sin unto death."

The reason why we do not "ask", for mortal sins (those unto death) is because only Christ's infinite merits are adequate to atone for these. On the other hand, we are admonished to "fill up those things that are wanting in the sufferings of Christ", with regards to the "sin which is not to death."

Speaking of the New Jerusalem, St. John reminds us in the Apocalypse that "There shall not enter it anything defiled, or that worketh abomination, or that maketh a lie." (Rev. 21:27). Virtually every Christian believes that he is still a sinner, even if they are one of the elect, or in a state of grace, or as some would say, saved. So what happens between the time they die, and the time they enter the New Jerusalem. You might give it a different name, but you probably believe in purgatory too. Maybe you think it is painless and instantaneous. Okay. It is still what we mean by the word, "purgatory". Even as a Baptist, I would have denied that "dunghills covered with snow" enter the New Jerusalem. Even when I was a total depravity guy,  I didn't think it extended in to heaven. I didn't know how it would happen, but I understood that God would clean me up.

I Corinthians 3:13-15 offers the best explanation for how this clean up process works:

Quote

Every man's work shall be manifest; for the day of the Lord shall declare it, because it shall be revealed in fire; and the fire shall try every man's work, of what sort it is. If any man's work abide, which he hath built thereon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work burn, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire.

I won't add to an already lengthy post except to ask why, in the light of the Scriptures quoted, we can be so certain that the clean up process is instantaneous and painless? Might it not be prudent to try to avoid being saved, "yet so as by fire"? Better yet, it is our unspeakable dignity as members of Christ's Body, to rejoice as did St. Paul by "filling up those things that are wanting in the sufferings of Christ". God's children can can "ask" for these sins which are not to death, and help alleviate the deserved temporal sufferings of our brothers and sisters in Christ. as our Captain and Head alleviated our deserved eternal sufferings. The Brown Scapular is one of many ways by which we can "ask" forgiveness for the temporal punishments for sin. 

Okay...I am late for my Rosary...part of the observances to be kept with the Brown Scapular. Prayers and blessings to you Erik. Thanks for your kind words above. I am sure you will have a good reply that doesn't require the Catholic interpretation. I will be interested to examine it. Thanks for your consideration of my unedited and hastily written post. Later!

Rory 

PS: Edited at 19:26 for grammar. Its all I can do today. 2:30 alarm will be here long before the sun. Weekends are better. I'll be happy to clarify later.

Edited January 26, 2018 by 3DOP

[Vanguard]

On 1/23/2018 at 10:49 PM, Storm Rider said:

When I was in the Middle East I had several friends that were relatively devout Catholics.  As I recall it was Ash Wednesday when he gave me a Brown Scapular and he asked that I wear it.  After studying about it I found that I was more than happy to wear it though the devotion to Mary was something I did not have, I found the offer to wear the Brown Scapular very charitable.  I wore it for several months, but it eventually disintegrated.  

It has been my belief that LDS and Catholics will stand together in the last days against the Evil One.  There is far more that unites us than that which separates us.  

Agreed. And I think there will be several others who will be standing with us. : )

[Bernard Gui]

On 1/2/2018 at 4:31 PM, CV75 said:

I did a quick review of Islamic and Jewish religious clothing, and found no parallel for divine protection in wearing them, so this is a fairly unique feature, it seems.

Quote

"A Remembrance" Like the two sardonyx shoulder stones, the Bible states that the purpose of the twelve stones is "to be a perpetual remembrance before the L-rd" (Ex. 28:29). When the High Priest bore the breastplate into the holy place, Israel was remembered for peace. The sages taught that the ephod served to invoke the cause of Israel's sustenance and material welfare, and the breastplate - her salvation, and deliverance from her enemies. https://www.templeinstitute.org/beged/priestly_garments-7.htm

 

[mfbukowski]

20 hours ago, theplains said:

What do non-temple going Mormons rely on for spiritual protection since they don't have special garments?

Thanks,
Jim

We all make covenants- the garments are not magic, no one said they were.   In a practical way they are a reminder when one is tempted by immorality - I hope I don't need to draw a picture.  Scapulars hold the some promise.   The protection comes from the covenants we make which are connected to receiving them.

If one has made strong promises to the Lord to follow His path, one naturally lives in a way which promotes spiritual living- and that is where the protection really comes from- the covenants not the pieces of cloth.

Presumably after one is "saved" in your faith, one lives differently and if one prays the Lord's prayer one asks daily to be "delivered from evil"

Garments are a tangible external reminder of internal covenants, nothing more, nothing less.  Every day one clothes oneself in the covenants of the Lord who is the real protector.

Others don't have the reminder - 

[mfbukowski]

On 1/23/2018 at 10:49 PM, Storm Rider said:

When I was in the Middle East I had several friends that were relatively devout Catholics.  As I recall it was Ash Wednesday when he gave me a Brown Scapular and he asked that I wear it.  After studying about it I found that I was more than happy to wear it though the devotion to Mary was something I did not have, I found the offer to wear the Brown Scapular very charitable.  I wore it for several months, but it eventually disintegrated.  

It has been my belief that LDS and Catholics will stand together in the last days against the Evil One.  There is far more that unites us than that which separates us.  

Usually for a Catholic there is a ceremony of sorts and covenants made when one receives a scapular.

Incidentally there are medals worn on a chain around the neck which are also seen to function as a "scapular" and other "sacramentals" to remind one of covenants made.  Some wonder why Catholics wear medals- one reason is that they are a bit more durable than the cloth fragments they represent. 

Here is a discussion on a Catholic board much like this one:

https://forums.catholic.com/t/miraculous-medal-scapular-or-both/112366

As far as devotion to Mary, as now a Mormon, I see her as a "Heavenly Mother" which gets tied up in a lot of LDS theology regarding Christ as the Second Adam, the conception of Jesus,  and the Adam God theory as it becomes better understood.   Of course for me it is all symbolic.

I also really love the symbols honoring the Divine Feminine on the back of the medal which were revealed to a female Catholic saint.   Look a tad familiar?  Has it clicked for anyone that a cross is made of 4 right angles? 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miraculous_Medal   

Edited January 27, 2018 by mfbukowski

[JLHPROF]

25 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Garments are a tangible external reminder of internal covenants, nothing more, nothing less.

Yes and no.
The word sacred springs to mind.  Temples are just buildings until they aren't.  Garments are just cloth until they aren't.
When something becomes sacred, the object itself becomes more than just symbolic.  If we try to separate the external reminder from the internal covenants we risk one becoming less sacred.  One of the covenants is to wear the garments.  That makes it as sacred as the covenant itself.

[mfbukowski]

6 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Yes and no.
The word sacred springs to mind.  Temples are just buildings until they aren't.  Garments are just cloth until they aren't.
When something becomes sacred, the object itself becomes more than just symbolic.  If we try to separate the external reminder from the internal covenants we risk one becoming less sacred.  One of the covenants is to wear the garments.  That makes it as sacred as the covenant itself.

Agreed but in this secular world it is hard to measure the "refined matter" change in making something "sacred" and so because it is still immeasurable we only have our perceptions of the change, and not all perceive those changes.

The changes within us though are palpable in how we perceive them and how we act toward them.  One might philosophically call that a "phenomenological change" in how we perceive their reality.

So in communicating with others who cannot perceive what we perceive it is necessary to use language which they can understand.

The measurable "fact" is our attitude in regarding the sacred.

And yes, we regard the covenant as sacred, and yes, that makes it as sacred as the covenant itself.

But when we talk of "sacred" as a tangible force independent of the covenants- yes I agree it "really is" sacred- it does not communicate to others.  We can either accommodate that in our explanation or leave it sounding kind of weird to  others.   I choose the former.

So, yes, yes and no. 

 

[Storm Rider]

9 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Usually for a Catholic there is a ceremony of sorts and covenants made when one receives a scapular.

Incidentally there are medals worn on a chain around the neck which are also seen to function as a "scapular" and other "sacramentals" to remind one of covenants made.  Some wonder why Catholics wear medals- one reason is that they are a bit more durable than the cloth fragments they represent. 

Here is a discussion on a Catholic board much like this one:

https://forums.catholic.com/t/miraculous-medal-scapular-or-both/112366

As far as devotion to Mary, as now a Mormon, I see her as a "Heavenly Mother" which gets tied up in a lot of LDS theology regarding Christ as the Second Adam, the conception of Jesus,  and the Adam God theory as it becomes better understood.   Of course for me it is all symbolic.

I also really love the symbols honoring the Divine Feminine on the back of the medal which were revealed to a female Catholic saint.   Look a tad familiar?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miraculous_Medal   

I don't think we have any disagreement between us.  I also can easily have Mary the mother of Jesus also be recognized as a Heavenly Mother without causing any heartburn.  The intention I had with my comment about Mary is that the adoration of Mary within Catholicism goes further than I am comfortable.  Yes, there are many similarities and Catholics can teach us many things, but there are some teachings about Mary that go too far for me.

[The Nehor]

I keep hearing about disagreements in the Catholic church over the Pope and get excited. One of my goals in life is to witness the rise of a molders antipope. Is that happening any time soon?

Edited January 27, 2018 by The Nehor

[mfbukowski]

45 minutes ago, Storm Rider said:

I don't think we have any disagreement between us.  I also can easily have Mary the mother of Jesus also be recognized as a Heavenly Mother without causing any heartburn.  The intention I had with my comment about Mary is that the adoration of Mary within Catholicism goes further than I am comfortable.  Yes, there are many similarities and Catholics can teach us many things, but there are some teachings about Mary that go too far for me.

The title "Co-Redemptrix" makes me a tad itchy, I must admit

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Co-Redemptrix

But what is interesting is how much the Catholic view makes her what LDS ears hear as virtually a "member of the Godhead" which we might actually feel quite comfortable as an actual LDS view of Heavenly Mother.   It kind of gives me the willies to think how close we could be on this point in a perspective that brother Brigham might almost ascribe to Heavenly Mother.

Quote

 

ARTICLE 9
"I BELIEVE IN THE HOLY CATHOLIC CHURCH"

Paragraph 6. Mary - Mother of Christ, Mother of the Church

963 Since the Virgin Mary's role in the mystery of Christ and the Spirit has been treated, it is fitting now to consider her place in the mystery of the Church. "The Virgin Mary . . . is acknowledged and honored as being truly the Mother of God and of the redeemer. . . . She is 'clearly the mother of the members of Christ' . . . since she has by her charity joined in bringing about the birth of believers in the Church, who are members of its head."502 "Mary, Mother of Christ, Mother of the Church."503

I. MARY'S MOTHERHOOD WITH REGARD TO THE CHURCH

Wholly united with her Son . . .

964 Mary's role in the Church is inseparable from her union with Christ and flows directly from it. "This union of the mother with the Son in the work of salvation is made manifest from the time of Christ's virginal conception up to his death";504 it is made manifest above all at the hour of his Passion:

Thus the Blessed Virgin advanced in her pilgrimage of faith, and faithfully persevered in her union with her Son unto the cross. There she stood, in keeping with the divine plan, enduring with her only begotten Son the intensity of his suffering, joining herself with his sacrifice in her mother's heart, and lovingly consenting to the immolation of this victim, born of her: to be given, by the same Christ Jesus dying on the cross, as a mother to his disciple, with these words: "Woman, behold your son."505

965 After her Son's Ascension, Mary "aided the beginnings of the Church by her prayers."506 In her association with the apostles and several women, "we also see Mary by her prayers imploring the gift of the Spirit, who had already overshadowed her in the Annunciation."507

. . . also in her Assumption

966 "Finally the Immaculate Virgin, preserved free from all stain of original sin, when the course of her earthly life was finished, was taken up body and soul into heavenly glory, and exalted by the Lord as Queen over all things, so that she might be the more fully conformed to her Son, the Lord of lords and conqueror of sin and death."508 The Assumption of the Blessed Virgin is a singular participation in her Son's Resurrection and an anticipation of the resurrection of other Christians:

In giving birth you kept your virginity; in your Dormition you did not leave the world, O Mother of God, but were joined to the source of Life. You conceived the living God and, by your prayers, will deliver our souls from death.509

. . . she is our Mother in the order of grace

967 By her complete adherence to the Father's will, to his Son's redemptive work, and to every prompting of the Holy Spirit, the Virgin Mary is the Church's model of faith and charity. Thus she is a "preeminent and . . . wholly unique member of the Church"; indeed, she is the "exemplary realization" (typus)510 of the Church.

 

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p123a9p6.htm

One cannot get a better source than the Vatican on Catholic doctrine, by definition.   We can see Heavenly Mother as a kind of Eve, the mother of mankind, wife of "that person in the Garden" Father/Adam as well as mother of the Second Adam, "made one" with Him forever."  

If the Godhead is unified in love and purpose If we apply what is believed of Mary to what some LDS believe about Heavenly Mother-  it is all very very close.

[Five Solas]

On 1/25/2018 at 3:39 PM, 3DOP said:

Hi Erik.

I hold that Christ's work is "somehow inadequate". It is not God's will that his Only Begotten Son should suffer, while His Adopted Sons and Daughters should fail to imitate Jesus by taking up their own crosses. It falls to God's other children to suffer as Jesus did, either for their own, or better, for the sins of their brethren. This is the way that the sufferings of Christ are "somehow inadequate." As Christ's Body, we cannot suffer the eternal punishment for sins that merit separation from God. But that leaves plenty of wood, hay, and stubble that can clutter up the foundation of Christ in our lives. St. Paul wrote to the Colossians saying how he "rejoice(s) in my sufferings for you, and fill(s) up those things that are wanting of the sufferings of Christ." (Col. 1:24)

Obviously Christ's atoning work was infinite, so how can anything be "wanting in the sufferings of Christ"? The Apostle believes that a progress in the sufferings of Christ remains to be fulfilled by God's regenerated sons and daughters. He rejoices to help "fill up those things that are wanting."

Many Protestants deny that there are sins that kill the life of grace in the soul, what Catholics call "mortal sin", as well as lesser sins, which dispose us to commit greater sins, but which do not kill God's life in us. These are the sins which we call venial, and these are the only ones which the Body of Christ is called upon to suffer for. St. John makes the distinction in I Jn 5:16, 17: "He that knoweth his brother to sin a sin which is not to death, let him ask , and life shall be given to him, who sinneth not to death. There is a sin unto death: for that I say not that any man ask. All iniquity is sin. And there is a sin unto death."

The reason why we do not "ask", for mortal sins (those unto death) is because only Christ's infinite merits are adequate to atone for these. On the other hand, we are admonished to "fill up those things that are wanting in the sufferings of Christ", with regards to the "sin which is not to death."

Speaking of the New Jerusalem, St. John reminds us in the Apocalypse that "There shall not enter it anything defiled, or that worketh abomination, or that maketh a lie." (Rev. 21:27). Virtually every Christian believes that he is still a sinner, even if they are one of the elect, or in a state of grace, or as some would say, saved. So what happens between the time they die, and the time they enter the New Jerusalem. You might give it a different name, but you probably believe in purgatory too. Maybe you think it is painless and instantaneous. Okay. It is still what we mean by the word, "purgatory". Even as a Baptist, I would have denied that "dunghills covered with snow" enter the New Jerusalem. Even when I was a total depravity guy,  I didn't think it extended in to heaven. I didn't know how it would happen, but I understood that God would clean me up.

I Corinthians 3:13-15 offers the best explanation for how this clean up process works:

I won't add to an already lengthy post except to ask why, in the light of the Scriptures quoted, we can be so certain that the clean up process is instantaneous and painless? Might it not be prudent to try to avoid being saved, "yet so as by fire"? Better yet, it is our unspeakable dignity as members of Christ's Body, to rejoice as did St. Paul by "filling up those things that are wanting in the sufferings of Christ". God's children can can "ask" for these sins which are not to death, and help alleviate the deserved temporal sufferings of our brothers and sisters in Christ. as our Captain and Head alleviated our deserved eternal sufferings. The Brown Scapular is one of many ways by which we can "ask" forgiveness for the temporal punishments for sin. 

Okay...I am late for my Rosary...part of the observances to be kept with the Brown Scapular. Prayers and blessings to you Erik. Thanks for your kind words above. I am sure you will have a good reply that doesn't require the Catholic interpretation. I will be interested to examine it. Thanks for your consideration of my unedited and hastily written post. Later!

Rory 

PS: Edited at 19:26 for grammar. Its all I can do today. 2:30 alarm will be here long before the sun. Weekends are better. I'll be happy to clarify later.

As always, I appreciate the thoughtful response, Rory.  It's an interesting interpretation of Colossians 1:24.  I quickly pulled my Catholic Study Bible (Oxford University Press) off the shelf to see if there was more to be had along these lines.  But it merely told me:

1, 24 What is lacking: although variously interpreted, this phrase does not imply that Christ's atoning death on the cross was defective.  It may refer to the apocalyptic concept of a quota of "messianic woes" to be endured before the end comes; cf Mk 13, 8.19-20.24 and the note on Mt 23, 29-32.  Others suggest that Paul's mystical unity with Christ allowed him to call his own sufferings the afflictions of Christ. 

The CSB's note on 1 Corinthians 3:15 was likewise interesting, The text of v 15 has sometimes been used to support the notion of purgatory, though it does not envisage this. 

And I looked up 1 John 5:16-17 as well.  And there the note read, deadly sin (literally "sin unto death") probably referring to apostasy or activities brought on under the antichrist; cf Mk 3, 29; Heb 6, 4-6; 10, 26-31. 

All that to say, you appear to have some well-developed ideas that aren't terribly common.  Indeed, I don't find much difference between my CSB's notes and Protestant interpretations for the passages you cited.  That in itself doesn't make you wrong, of course.  I am curious if there's a study bible or set of commentaries you like to use and would recommend. 

--Erik

PS.  And yes, I did enjoy the scripture chase you gave me.  And I took a look at a couple of John Piper commentaries along with the wikipedia entry on Purgatory--but chose not to bore you with any of that.

;0)