Men, Women, And The Priesthood

[Stargazer]

I, too, was impressed by what Elder Dallin Oaks had to say about women and the priesthood, and it called to mind something Elder F. Enzio Busche wrote about in his book "Yearning for the Living God".  He recounts about an experience he had while serving as President of the Frankfurt Temple (as a General Authority).  

 

One day, not long after I had begun serving in the temple, I met a woman in the American military service who came for her own endowment. She was accompanied by some sisters from her ward, as well as a priesthood leader.  As Sister Busche and I began teaching her about the temple, I felt that she had a somewhat unsettled spirit and saw a little of that in the sisters who were with her, who were all officers in the military. When the priesthood leader inquired as to when I thought the Church would receive revelation giving the priesthood to women, I was at first so shocked that I felt a strong desire to give a stern response and even question his worthiness to be in the temple.

 

However, as I momentarily withheld my answer and sought guidance from the Spirit, I was witness to something most remarkable. A calmness from someplace else entered my heart, and I heard myself saying things that were somewhat new to me. As I remember, my remarks, in an abbreviated form, were approximately as follows:

The priesthood is neither male nor female, although it has a male part and a female part. Through the eternal bond of marriage, built on the divine gift of love, the priesthood becomes complete. The roles of the two parts are, of course, vastly different.

 

Heavenly Father has given the female the role of bringing new life to this world. She does so in a physical dimension — by nurturing, tutoring, training, and teaching — and in the wearing of the very eternal virtues of chastity, loyalty, and wholesomeness, which are essential for the very existence of humankind. Our Heavenly Father has given the male the role of providing, protecting, and admiring. Male and female are in many ways mysteriously different and, because of that, there is a natural desire to love one another in harmony with the divine laws as they have been reestablished by the restoration of the gospel.

 

The best way to gain an understanding of the male and female part of the priesthood is to be reminded of a tree. As we look at a tree, it appears to be complete with its trunk, branches, leaves, and blossoms; but we know that another, equally important part of the tree is invisible. The roots — which, quite unseen, lie deeply embedded in the soil — are constantly nourishing and strengthening the visible parts of the tree. The roots do not argue with the trunk. They both enjoy oneness.

 

The temple is the Lord’s essential instrument used to reestablish a true understanding of the male and female parts of the priesthood. In the temple, both men and women wear the robe of the priesthood and are given the garments of the priesthood. Righteous men and women learn that although women are not physically involved in conducting the affairs of the priesthood, no man can excel in his priesthood callings for long without the blessing and care and guidance of a righteous woman. When we listen very carefully in the temple and learn to understand and accept our male and female roles, we will soon see ourselves in our own limitations. Those who concentrate their efforts in developing the purposes and virtues of their own gender will build tender, bonding bridges between men and women on the basis of mutual respect and admiration, inspired by the divine, miraculous power of love. A society that fails to accept the eternal concept of this godly design must pay an unbearable price of confusion of the individual, which can, potentially, lead to chaos, destruction, and the unhappiness of the soul.  

 

 

 

As I spoke, I felt a warm, comforting spirit come over me — a stimulating vibrancy that filled my whole being with light and joy. I witnessed how that same spirit came over the listeners. Their hearts became enlightened and their attitudes became mild and receptive.  As I continued my remarks, I observed that they had tears in their eyes. The priesthood leader was so embarrassed that he could not find enough words of regret and apology. Deeply touched and lightened by inner understanding, they were ready to participate in the additional experiences of their temple Visit.

 

 

Edited April 9, 2014 by Stargazer

[teddyaware]

I, too, was impressed by what Elder Dallin Oaks had to say about women and the priesthood, and it called to mind something Elder F. Enzio Busche wrote about in his book "Yearning for the Living God".  He recounts about an experience he had while serving as President of the Frankfurt Temple (as a General Authority).  

This is great stuff! These words minister peace and desire for harmony rather than the turmoil and strife generated recently by demands for a strict equality and sameness of roles for the women and men of the Church. Thanks...

[Stone holm]

And here we all thought the idea of a fertility goddesses was a pagan thin.

[Storm Rider]

Great post; thank you for sharing it here. 

 

Stone holm, you have become a source of pure inspiration; always seeking the uplifting things. God bless you. 

[The Nehor]

And here we all thought the idea of a fertility goddesses was a pagan thin.

 

Considering we weekly eat the flesh and drink the blood of a dead but living God we really have no call to look down on pagans.

[JLHPROF]

The temple is the Lord’s essential instrument used to reestablish a true understanding of the male and female parts of the priesthood. In the temple, both men and women wear the robe of the priesthood and are given the garments of the priesthood.

 

 

Love this.  Thank you so much for posting.  This is what I've been saying all along.  This is what we should be focusing on, not whether or not there should be female Bishops.

[Duncan]

I LOVE Elder Busche!!!! but I need more convincing on this whole Priesthood equals motherhood analogy. I know Elder Busche just mentions it briefly though

[Stargazer]

I LOVE Elder Busche!!!! but I need more convincing on this whole Priesthood equals motherhood analogy. I know Elder Busche just mentions it briefly though

 

I didn't hear him say that, actually.  That the priesthood equals motherhood.  

 

Concerning that which he reports having said to the folks listening to his instruction, he states that it came under direct inspiration of the Spirit, and having read his book I can tell you that he had a number of such experiences, I would hesitate to gainsay what he reports the Spirit gave him at that time.

[Stargazer]

Concerning Elder Busche, I never met him, but he lived within the boundaries of my mission, the Germany Central (later Germany Duesseldorf) Mission.  He had an awesome reputation among the missionaries who had met him, and he was well-acquainted with my mission president, Rudolf K. Poecker (also a native German).  Later, Elder Busche served as the first President of the Frankfurt Temple and had my Br. Poecker as one of his counselors.

 

I was recently loaned his book and found it to be about as inspiring as any other book I have ever read.  I highly recommend it!

[Storm Rider]

I didn't hear him say that, actually.  That the priesthood equals motherhood.  

 

Concerning that which he reports having said to the folks listening to his instruction, he states that it came under direct inspiration of the Spirit, and having read his book I can tell you that he had a number of such experiences, I would hesitate to gainsay what he reports the Spirit gave him at that time.

 

I agree with Stargazer here; Duncan, it is too much a broad stroke to summarize it simply as motherhood.  Both men and women wear the robes of the holy priesthood in the temple.  Of primary, fundamental importance is that the two are joined as one. It is the union of man and woman that they become complete and are able to properly magnify the priesthood. The one does not stand without the other.  

 

As I write this a cringe at those who equate union with sexuality. I hear the myriad of questions:  what of those who do not marry, etc. We have such a limited understanding of so many things. We are taught by the Savior to become one as he is one with the Father. I put the emphasis on that oneness when I think of the union of man and woman, the fundamental unit, and the oneness of all that are united to Christ. 

 

Getting back to the thread, too many think that a right had should be the left hand to be equal as hands. They fail to understand that a right hand is different than a left hand; it can do things the left hand cannot and vice-versa. The definition of equality has been so truncated and narrow as to become useless; it is a byword to create an illusion of a problem.  Does the body function better with a left hand and a right hand or should we just have a left hands?

 

Husbands and wives are the right and left hands of the single entity. It takes both for the unit/union to function properly. The priesthood of one is only magnified and fully realized when united to the other. In an eternal perspective you cannot limit the priesthood to one individual because it is held in common.  However, the expression of that priesthood, the roles played are different. The man can do things the woman is not assigned to do just as the woman can do things the man is not assigned to do. The intention of their creation is to fulfill different purposes do that together they become whole.  To make them "equal" in the same context of the OW mean is to break the unity of the whole; it is the equivalent of giving everyone just left hands.  The full functionality of the union is limited, if not broken. The priesthood cannot be magnified because that union is broken. 

[Duncan]

Concerning Elder Busche, I never met him, but he lived within the boundaries of my mission, the Germany Central (later Germany Duesseldorf) Mission.  He had an awesome reputation among the missionaries who had met him, and he was well-acquainted with my mission president, Rudolf K. Poecker (also a native German).  Later, Elder Busche served as the first President of the Frankfurt Temple and had my Br. Poecker as one of his counselors.

 

I was recently loaned his book and found it to be about as inspiring as any other book I have ever read.  I highly recommend it!

 

 

it's one of my favourites!

[Duncan]

I didn't hear him say that, actually.  That the priesthood equals motherhood.  

 

Concerning that which he reports having said to the folks listening to his instruction, he states that it came under direct inspiration of the Spirit, and having read his book I can tell you that he had a number of such experiences, I would hesitate to gainsay what he reports the Spirit gave him at that time.

 

 

I say he mentions it briefly so he doesn't put too much stock in the idea at least from this experience and I was just wondering 

[Stone holm]

Great post; thank you for sharing it here. 

 

Stone holm, you have become a source of pure inspiration; always seeking the uplifting things. God bless you.

You are welcome!

Considering we weekly eat the flesh and drink the blood of a dead but living God we really have no call to look down on pagans.

Ah but for us it is purely symbolic, now on the other hand the transubstantiation folk may have an issue there. Have never seen fertility cult concepts pressed this far, it's an interesting change from regurgitation of Victorian role stereotypes.

[David T]

And now Elder Oaks referenced and suggested we readSheri Dew's Women and the Priesthood in his conference footnotes. I didn't have any interest in that book until I realized it might shed some light on Oaks' understanding of things...its now in my Deseret Bookshelf reader app. Dang it.

 

From the footnote:

16. M. Russell Ballard, New Era, Apr. 2014, 4; Liahona, Apr. 2014, 48; see also Sheri L. Dew, Women and the Priesthood (2013), especially chapter 6, for a valuable elaboration of the doctrines stated here.

Edited April 9, 2014 by David T

[The Nehor]

Ah but for us it is purely symbolic, now on the other hand the transubstantiation folk may have an issue there. Have never seen fertility cult concepts pressed this far, it's an interesting change from regurgitation of Victorian role stereotypes.

It is purely symbolic to me.

[Stone holm]

It is purely symbolic to me.

But Elder Oaks can spin an elegant bit of semantics.

[Rain]

Thank you!  That's how I have felt for many years, but couldn't put words to it.  

 

 

 

I LOVE Elder Busche!!!! but I need more convincing on this whole Priesthood equals motherhood analogy.

 

He does briefly mention motherhood, but, the cool thing is in the next line he talks of fatherhood. He does not say motherhood = priesthood.  He says (motherhood + other things) X (fatherhood + other things) = priesthood.  

[David T]

I did find interesting that in Dew's book,while she made the Priesthood Office =Motherhood equivalency, she creatively redefined and expanded Motherhood to be more than just physically bearing children. She notes herself and the Biblical Deborah as Mothers in Zion who did not actually bear children (as far as is recorded in Deborahs case).

What's interesting that she didn't note is that Jesus redefined 'mother' in the Gospels as referring to 'all who do the will of God the Father'.

46 ¶While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him.

47 Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.

48 But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?

49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!

50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

Priesthood = Doing the Will of the Father makes a lot more sense.

Edited April 10, 2014 by David T

[bluebell]

I did find interesting that in Dew's book,while she made the Priesthood Office =Motherhood equivalency, she creatively redefined and expanded Motherhood to be more than just physically bearing children. She notes herself and the Biblical Deborah as Mothers in Zion who did not actually bear children (as far as is recorded in Deborahs case).

 

 

I have not read Dew's latest book, but i've read other books of hers and i'm not surprised that she would include herself as being a mother.

 

She is fond of reminding members that Eve was called the mother of all living before she bore any children, underscoring the idea that motherhood is more than giving birth.

[Rain]

I agree with you.  

 

Sister Dew has long talked about the idea of motherhood being much more than physically bearing children (and I would say adopting children as well).  At least as far back as 2001. Perhaps that is where the idea of where motherhood = priesthood comes from.

 

I think most women (now days) would agree that motherhood is more than bearing children and many women feel motherhood = priesthood, but until this thread I never thought anyone meant (motherhood is more than bearing children) = priesthood. It never even occurred to me.   

 

Is that part of the problem?  We have no word to accurately define the woman's role.  

[Rain]

Is there a way to edit posts?  

 

I meant to say that I agree with David T that "Priesthood = Doing the Will of the Father makes a lot more sense." 

[bluebell]

Is there a way to edit posts?  

 

I meant to say that I agree with David T that "Priesthood = Doing the Will of the Father makes a lot more sense." 

 

Once you have 25 posts, you'll be able to edit.  It will appear as a button at the bottom of your posts next to the quote button.

[bluebell]

 Is that part of the problem?  We have no word to accurately define the woman's role.  

 

I do think that's a large part of the problem.  We haven't yet come up with a way to speak about or understand the role of women without focusing on a very specific (and limited) part of their genetic make-up.

[Nofear]

Getting back to the thread, too many think that a right had should be the left hand to be equal as hands. They fail to understand that a right hand is different than a left hand; it can do things the left hand cannot and vice-versa. The definition of equality has been so truncated and narrow as to become useless; it is a byword to create an illusion of a problem.  Does the body function better with a left hand and a right hand or should we just have a left hands?

 

Husbands and wives are the right and left hands of the single entity. It takes both for the unit/union to function properly. The priesthood of one is only magnified and fully realized when united to the other. In an eternal perspective you cannot limit the priesthood to one individual because it is held in common.  However, the expression of that priesthood, the roles played are different. The man can do things the woman is not assigned to do just as the woman can do things the man is not assigned to do. The intention of their creation is to fulfill different purposes do that together they become whole.  To make them "equal" in the same context of the OW mean is to break the unity of the whole; it is the equivalent of giving everyone just left hands.  The full functionality of the union is limited, if not broken. The priesthood cannot be magnified because that union is broken.

I mirror your sentiment here. The question that perhaps should be asked are we fully utilizing both "hands"? Do both "hands" have equal support and guidance in the fulfillment of their duties? Some things both left and right "hands" can do equally well, some things not. But of the former category have we artificially and unnecessarily limited activities to one "hand"?

 

Personally, I think it can be persuasively argued that the Church does not currently equitably make use of both "hands". But I am more interested in other's opinions than a soapbox to voice my own.

[David T]

I've been all in favor of replacing the term 'Priesthood Holder' with 'Priesthood Officer'. As Oaks made clear, women hold and access Priesthood authority - they are just not ordained to Ecclesiastical Offices.

 

Also renaming the Priesthood Session of conference the General Men's Meeting.

Edited April 10, 2014 by David T