Youth Treks

[Scott Lloyd]

Off-topic, but Alex Baugh helped me immensely in tracking down a lot of my Williams lineage. He's a good man.

He is indeed -- and a brilliant researcher and writer.

 

I'm pleased to count him as a friend. A couple of years ago, I was privileged to tramp through western Missouri with him and a few others as he showed us some little-known Church history sites.

 

He sleuthed out the identity of Jacob Hawn. Found the grave markers for Hawn and his wife in Oregon. (The Hawns never joined the Church.)

 

That is how we come by the correct spelling of Hawn. If you check out the maps in the new edition of the scriptures, you'll find the revised spelling therein.

Edited November 7, 2013 by Scott Lloyd

[Senator]

Well, I haven't done any empirical or statistical studies; I doubt you have either.

Correct

[bluebell]

Your garden comparison is a good one, because there is a direct connection between toiling in a garden and expecting/anticipating an outcome..the harvest. However what I think is happening in these trek reenactments is that we are foisting spiritual interpretations upon a very emotional experience; an indirect connection. We go out and trudge along in the hot sun, get fatigued, hungry(get fed little), and sleep uncomfortably on the hard ground. Then, the resulting heightened emotions we feel we pin as testimony of the restored gospel, the church, the prophet Joseph smith etc.... I can honestly say that I never felt that connection.

 

The direct emotional/spiritual connection (that I felt, and was expressed by many of the kids in my group) was that of gratitude. First and foremost, gratitude for the age in which we live and the wonders of modern transportation. Gratitude for our comfortable homes and warm beds and plentiful food. Second, was a sense of respect and gratitude for our ancestors, especially their grit and toughness!

 

After a modest lunch, we walked till nearly 1am in the morning, only to be given a bowl of over cooked ramen noodles for dinner.

 

I've personally never had an experience with a kid who gained a testimony of the church, JS, or whatever, because of trek.  (they may be out there, I've just never heard of one).  If that is the whole point of trek, then the success rate seems to be dismal, though without those who are putting trek on actually realizing it (since they continue to do it over and over again-and always seem to feel good about it when it's done each time).

 

I completely agree that trek is not a good way to convince anyone that the church is true.  But, the spirit can testify to more than just the basics that we hear each month at testimony meeting. 

 

All the treks I've had experience with, the purpose was to help the kids get exactly what you got out of your trek experience.

Edited November 7, 2013 by bluebell

[Calm]

I agree.

 

But they seemed to fit under Bernard's definition of what manipulation is, which is why I used the term.

The way I read his posts, he is only protesting when something is not the natural consequence of the trek but is created specifically to make people suffer....though he may be protesting the whole event as too artificial for our modern day to be relevant.

 

I think there can be a fine line.  For instance, I can see why the boiled potatoes was done in order to give the youth a taste of what was faced since that was one of the purposes of the trek experience (the same reason why in our stake, they were to wear similar clothing as well as no hair or modern hygiene products allowed to make one smell nice no matter how dirty one got).  If one was trying to make the trek as much like the original experience as feasibly possible that makes sense...however, the reality was that the youth were not physically up to handling that level of deprivation (which was a much lower level than actually suffered if they only had to endure that for one day).  As I said, I can see why they experimented with diet, however, they should have realized it was an experiment and made preparations for if that experiment was a failure in the sense of ultimately preventing the youth from completing the trek due to illness and injuries. 

Edited November 7, 2013 by calmoriah

[Bernard Gui]

Wow! An excellent discussion. Let me get more specific. At Woodbadge, one of the activities was done to teach us how the boys feel if we arbitrarily move them out of their patrols where they have established friendships. After several days of working and sweating together, we were starting to develop some bonds of friendship. The leaders came in and announced they had to move one of our patrol members to another group for some reason I can't remember. That was really upsetting to us. They picked the nicest, most vulnerable person to move, which made it worse. Tears of anger and sadness were shed. After a period of emotional upheaval, they let on that it was just an exercise in team formation. Later we talked about how boys have even stronger feelings when we do it to them. (I'm reminded of the social disruption that happens when a ward is split.) At the last campfire, things were shared and feelings expressed akin to post-trek testimony meetings. When I came home I was a "changed" man; however, after some time passed, I thought about the experience. I was shocked at how easily I had been manipulated.

So, was that the Spirit we felt at Woodbadge, or was it emotion? Did I have a spiritual witness of Woodbadge? I have similar thoughts about treks. From the example I gave earlier, it seems to me the same kind of planned emotional manipulation takes place in the "women's pull," so much so that it has become a regular and popular feature. Strong emotional responses can be counted on, and many will attribute those to the Spirit of God. Really?

As a professional musician, I deal with the communication of emotions. Many times after great planning, preparation, and practice, I have experienced wonderful emotional performances. I have also had real experiences with the Holy Spirit. The two are not the same. The Spirit has come when it was least expected. I don't know of a routine or plan that always results in spiritual communication.

I have Ben told that some trek experiences are planned to go awry so the trekkers feel they must pray and seek priesthood blessings. I was hoping someone here could shed more light on this.

Edited November 8, 2013 by Bernard Gui

[Tacenda]

Not to derail, but I thought I read somewhere on this thread, another type of program for the youth. Was it Camp Helaman or something like that? It's late, but anyway, my nephew said at his mission farewell that it was life changing and made him want to go on a mission. And my son gained a stronger testimony when he participated in the Saviour of the World production that the youth participate in every four years in place of youth conference in our Stake. And most likely helped him decide to go on a mission. So these programs definitely help with testimony building, but it only goes so far before it's up to the individual to keep it.

[Tacenda]

http://ldsmediatalk.com/2013/07/20/helamans-camp-missionary-preparation/

 

I believe this is the camp my nephew went to, changed his life. Watch the promo videos, they say it is going to be like the mission field and one said the music is very emotional and will bring the spirit.  Sounds like just a little manipulation is going on, but hey, whatever works I guess.  My sister and husband swear by it and have had all three sons attend.  Just thought of something.....they need one of these for the young women now!         

Edited November 8, 2013 by Tacenda

[Kenngo1969]

Not to derail, but I thought I read somewhere on this thread, another type of program for the youth. Was it Camp Helaman or something like that? It's late, but anyway, my nephew said at his mission farewell that it was life changing and made him want to go on a mission. And my son gained a stronger testimony when he participated in the Saviour of the World production that the youth participate in every four years in place of youth conference in our Stake. And most likely helped him decide to go on a mission. So these programs definitely help with testimony building, but it only goes so far before it's up to the individual to keep it.

Credit where it's due, Tacenda.  Good post.

[Scott Lloyd]

Wow! An excellent discussion. Let me get more specific. At Woodbadge, one of the activities was done to teach us how the boys feel if we arbitrarily move them out of their patrols where they have established friendships. After several days of working and sweating together, we were starting to develop some bonds of friendship. The leaders came in and announced they had to move one of our patrol members to another group for some reason I can't remember. That was really upsetting to us. They picked the nicest, most vulnerable person to move, which made it worse. Tears of anger and sadness were shed. After a period of emotional upheaval, they let on that it was just an exercise in team formation. Later we talked about how boys have even stronger feelings when we do it to them. (I'm reminded of the social disruption that happens when a ward is split.) At the last campfire, things were shared and feelings expressed akin to post-trek testimony meetings. When I came home I was a "changed" man; however, after some time passed, I thought about the experience. I was shocked at how easily I had been manipulated.

So, was that the Spirit we felt at Woodbadge, or was it emotion? Did I have a spiritual witness of Woodbadge? I have similar thoughts about treks. From the example I gave earlier, it seems to me the same kind of planned emotional manipulation takes place in the "women's pull," so much so that it has become a regular and popular feature. Strong emotional responses can be counted on, and many will attribute those to the Spirit of God. Really?

As a professional musician, I deal with the communication of emotions. Many times after great planning, preparation, and practice, I have experienced wonderful emotional performances. I have also had real experiences with the Holy Spirit. The two are not the same. The Spirit has come when it was least expected. I don't know of a routine or plan that always results in spiritual communication.

I have Ben told that some trek experiences are planned to go awry so the trekkers feel they must pray and seek priesthood blessings. I was hoping someone here could shed more light on this.

But I'm certain you will agree that a well-prepared and well-performed piece of music can and does provide an environment wherein those present can more easily sense and respond to the manifestation of the Spirit.

 

I devote considerable time and energy to my new calling as ward choir director on the basis of that belief. If I am mistaken in that understanding, I will be very disillusioned.

[Bernard Gui]

But I'm certain you will agree that a well-prepared and well-performed piece of music can and does provide an environment wherein those present can more easily sense and respond to the manifestation of the Spirit.

I devote considerable time and energy to my new calling as ward choir director on the basis of that belief. If I am mistaken in that understanding, I will be very disillusioned.

Scott, after over 40 years in the music profession, I have become truly perplexed. Is an elegant, well-entoned, lucid prayer better than "Forgive me Lord, for I am a sinner," spoken by a battered street person? Does Barbra Steisand's The Best of Christmas communicate the spirit of Christmas better than the ward choir's out-of-tune renditions? Is it all so personal that no judgment should be made? As a musician, I have observed and given performances in which the participants were diffident and distant, but audience members were emotionally moved. I have a hard time answering these questions for myself. Maybe it's just me and it doesn't bother others. When it comes to treks, I honestly wonder if the Spirit can be summoned using emotional manipulation. I don't know...that's why I bring it up.

Our stake does Camp Helaman. I suppose there is a precedent in the Zion's Camp of Joseph's time.

.

Edited November 9, 2013 by Bernard Gui

[katherine the great]

http://ldsmediatalk.com/2013/07/20/helamans-camp-missionary-preparation/

 

I believe this is the camp my nephew went to, changed his life. Watch the promo videos, they say it is going to be like the mission field and one said the music is very emotional and will bring the spirit.  Sounds like just a little manipulation is going on, but hey, whatever works I guess.  My sister and husband swear by it and have had all three sons attend.  Just thought of something.....they need one of these for the young women now!         

Sheesh!  They are behind the times down there!  We have been doing "Helaman's camp" (We call it Helaman Academy) in Boise for almost ten years now.  We have a companion program for the young women too.

[cinepro]

Sheesh!  They are behind the times down there!  We have been doing "Helaman's camp" (We call it Helaman Academy) in Boise for almost ten years now.  We have a companion program for the young women too.

 

My stake has a camp for the young women where they get together and study the important women in the Book of Mormon.  It takes about 20 minutes on a Saturday morning and that includes the hymns, prayers and refreshments.

Edited November 12, 2013 by cinepro

[rongo]

My stake has a camp for the young women where they get together and study the important women in the Book of Mormon.  It take about 20 minutes on a Saturday morning and that includes the hymns, prayers and refreshments.

Who gets more "market share:" Abish, or Isabel?

[Scott Lloyd]

Scott, after over 40 years in the music profession, I have become truly perplexed. Is an elegant, well-entoned, lucid prayer better than "Forgive me Lord, for I am a sinner," spoken by a battered street person? Does Barbra Steisand's The Best of Christmas communicate the spirit of Christmas better than the ward choir's out-of-tune renditions? Is it all so personal that no judgment should be made? As a musician, I have observed and given performances in which the participants were diffident and distant, but audience members were emotionally moved. I have a hard time answering these questions for myself. Maybe it's just me and it doesn't bother others. When it comes to treks, I honestly wonder if the Spirit can be summoned using emotional manipulation. I don't know...that's why I bring it up.

Our stake does Camp Helaman. I suppose there is a precedent in the Zion's Camp of Joseph's time.

.

I don't claim to have the answers, but I would think the readiness of the individual listener/viewer to receive the Spirit would be quite a variable, one that might to some degree overcome deficiencies in the performance. But that would not excuse failure to give one's best effort. One would hope the performance, at the least, would not be a hindrance to the reception of the Spirit.

 

Then there's the matter of the pursuit of excellence. That strikes me as a gospel principle. See the 13th Article of Faith.

 

Edited to add:

 

When I say "best effort" I mean that within the parameters allowed. In preparing our sacrament meeting Christmas program, for example, I understand that elaborate pageantry with minimal spoken word is frowned upon in such a setting, even though, by some definitions, one's "best effort" might entail that.

Edited November 11, 2013 by Scott Lloyd

[ERayR]

When I say "best effort" I mean that within the parameters allowed. In preparing our sacrament meeting Christmas program, for example, I understand that elaborate pageantry with minimal spoken word is frowned upon in such a setting, even though, by some definitions, one's "best effort" might entail that.

 

I am bemused that some area Seventy authorities and stake presidents can take the prophets admonitions for simplicity and turn it into an austere practice or program.

[Calm]

Many of these trek reenactments include a "men go away with the Mormon Battalion, so women have to pull carts uphill without them".   Um, it didn't happen.  The Mormon Battalion was 1846 to 1847, and the first handcart company was in 1856.  That's around 10 years difference.  There is plenty of fascinating Mormon history to explore, so there's no need to make stuff up.  

 

Most Mormon pioneers traveled in wagon companies- less than 10% came in handcarts.  Most pioneers were not forced to go on short rations during the journey (excepting the W&M companies).  Most did not die (death rate estimate is ~3% for pioneers, vs ~2% if they stayed home).  The tragedy of the W&M companies makes interesting history, and can be a lesson on making wise decisions.  

An Mormon myths broadcast on lds.org speaks at the end with pretty much the same perspective that you write here of the misperceptions of the handcart experience:

http://broadcast2.lds.org/ldsradio/pdf/legacy/legacy-ep-39.pdf

[Scott Lloyd]

An Mormon myths broadcast on lds.org speaks at the end with pretty much the same perspective that you write here of the misperceptions of the handcart experience:

http://broadcast2.lds.org/ldsradio/pdf/legacy/legacy-ep-39.pdf

That Morrmon Channel broadcast was brought up earlier.

 

My hunch is this sort of inaccuracy or anachronism would be less apt to transpire at a formal venue such as Martin's Cove than it would be with the ward or stake here and there that is planning things on its own.

[Calm]

That Morrmon Channel broadcast was brought up earlier.

 

.

I thought I checked all the pages, must have missed that one.

Glad to see someone was on the ball.

[Scott Lloyd]

 

As has been pointed out here, with the exception of the Willie and Martin company treks, the handcart experience was not an unmitigated disaster. The other eight companies that came across did so with varying degrees of hardship, but in general, they accomplished what they were intended to do: the gathering of people to the Rocky Mountain settlements who otherwise would have been too impoverished to make the journey.

When I saw this story in today's Deseret News, I recalled this thread from last October, in which someone called the Mormon handcart experience an "unmitigated disaster."

 

I regarded it an ill-considered statement back then, and I do even more so now, having seen this Deseret News story.

 

Briefly stated, a study has shown among other things that, except for the ill-fated Willie and Martin handcart companies, the mortality rate for handcart pioneers during their trek was not much different from the general population -- just as I maintained back in October when this thread was new.

 

There are other interesting facts in this story. For example, during the Mormon pioneer era from 1847 to 1869, the infant mortality rate on the trail was actually lower than the general. population.

Edited July 23, 2014 by Scott Lloyd

[ksfisher]

 

There are other interesting facts in this story. For example, during the Mormon pioneer era from 1847 to 1869, the infant mortality rate on the trail was actually lower than the general. population.

 

This leaves me wondering if infant mortality for that period was not higher during the winter, and that the reason is was lower for the hand cart pioneers was because, with well know exceptions, they were not on the road during the winter.  I wonder how infant mortality in Utah compared to the general population.

[Scott Lloyd]

This leaves me wondering if infant mortality for that period was not higher during the winter, and that the reason is was lower for the hand cart pioneers was because, with well know exceptions, they were not on the road during the winter.  I wonder how infant mortality in Utah compared to the general population.

That may well be the case.

 

But I think the take-away point is that this study puts the lie to the notion that life on the trail in general was appreciably more harrowing or dangerous than 19th century existence in general.

 

The Latter-day Saints in Nauvoo prior to the trek were subject to the oppression of mobs. And as for the handcart and other later pioneers, I don't know that life was necessarily a bed of roses for them back in Europe or the British Isles.

 

I would guess that infant mortality in 19th century Utah would not have been worse than in other frontier settlements elsewhere, such as Oregon and California.

Edited July 21, 2014 by Scott Lloyd

[SeekingUnderstanding]

When I saw this story in Sunday's Deseret News, I recalled this thread from last October, in which someone called the Mormon handcart experience an "unmitigated disaster."

 

I considered it an ill-considered statement back then, and I do even more so now, having seen this Deseret News story.

 

Briefly stated, a study has shown among other things that, except for the ill-fated Willie and Martin handcart companies, the mortality rate for handcart pioneers during their trek was not much different from the general population -- just as I maintained back in October when this thread was new.

 

There are other interesting facts in this story. For example, during the Mormon pioneer era from 1847 to 1869, the infant mortality rate on the trail was actually lower than the general. population.

 

Since the "unmitigated disaster" quote was mine, let me clarify that I was specifically referring to the Martin and Willie Handcart companies. I do not consider the handcart experience in general to be a disaster let alone an unmitigated one. I reread my post and apologize that I did not make this clear.

 

I will also point out that the mortality rate for handcart pioneers was just short of double that of the general population - (for a cross reference, smokers are about twice as likely to be dead by 50 as non-smokers).

[Scott Lloyd]

Since the "unmitigated disaster" quote was mine, let me clarify that I was specifically referring to the Martin and Willie Handcart companies. I do not consider the handcart experience in general to be a disaster let alone an unmitigated one. I reread my post and apologize that I did not make this clear.

 

I will also point out that the mortality rate for handcart pioneers was just short of double that of the general population - (for a cross reference, smokers are about twice as likely to be dead by 50 as non-smokers).

4.7 is not close to the double of 2.9.

 

If you double 2.9 you get 5.8. That's over a full percentage point more than 4.7.

 

By the way, you weren't the only one to convey a misleadingly harsh impression of the handcart experience. It's just that the "unmitigated disaster" phrasing was what stuck in my mind.

 

In fact, I may have conflated in my mind your statement with that of jkwilliams, who said:

 

Personally, I think the handcart experiment was a disastrous mistake, so it's a little weird that it's commemorated the way it is.

 

It seems clear to me that jk was referring to the entire handcart venture, not just the Willie and Martin companies.

Edited July 21, 2014 by Scott Lloyd

[SeekingUnderstanding]

4.7 is not close to the double of 2.9.

 

If you double 2.9 you get 5.8. That's over a full percentage point more than 4.7.

 

The article gave a typical death range of 2.5-2.9 for the general population. 4.7 is 175% of 2.7 (the average given in the article). I did a little research and the 2.5-2.9 is pretty high based on the sources I was able to track down. This source (http://www.nber.org/chapters/c9687.pdf) lists a death rate in 1850 of 2.3 percent, and doing the math with this source lists it is even lower (http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=uc2.ark:/13960/t4qj7qt8w;view=1up;seq=50). I do think that the pioneers knew the risks inherent in their journey and went willingly (the Hymn "All is Well" comes to mind). To me saying that nearly doubling your chance of death (for the successful handcart companies) is "not much different from the general population" belittles the sacrifice they willingly made.

[Scott Lloyd]

The article gave a typical death range of 2.5-2.9 for the general population. 4.7 is 175% of 2.7 (the average given in the article).

175 percent is quite a bit less than double. Twenty-five percent less than double, to be precise.

 

I did a little research and the 2.5-2.9 is pretty high based on the sources I was able to track down. This source (http://www.nber.org/chapters/c9687.pdf) lists a death rate in 1850 of 2.3 percent, and doing the math with this source lists it is even lower (http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=uc2.ark:/13960/t4qj7qt8w;view=1up;seq=50). I do think that the pioneers knew the risks inherent in their journey and went willingly (the Hymn "All is Well" comes to mind). To me saying that nearly doubling your chance of death (for the successful handcart companies) is "not much different from the general population" belittles the sacrifice they willingly made.

 

 

I don't mean to belittle the sacrifice of the Mormon pioneers.

 

But I believe their sacrifice goes far beyond that of making the overland trek. For the Latter-day Saints in Nauvoo and, prior to that, Missouri and Ohio, merely self-identifying as a member of the Church and choosing to remain so made one the target of oppression, persecution, and, in some cases, assault and murder. For them, the exodus to the West was an effort to escape an intolerable and dangerous situation. As one quote has it, "We left willingly, because we had to."

 

Regarding the handcart pioneers specifically, your links appear to cover death rates in the United States. I don't know how well this applies to the handcart pioneers who, as I understand it, hailed from the British Isles, Scandinavia and other parts of Europe. I have no information as to whether the fatality rates in those countries were comparable to the United States, particularly considering the demographics of where and from among whom converts to the Church originated. Or to put it another way, I don't know that they would have been physically better off remaining where they were.

Edited July 21, 2014 by Scott Lloyd