Youth Treks

[toon]

When I saw this story in today's Deseret News, I recalled this thread from last October, in which someone called the Mormon handcart experience an "unmitigated disaster."

 

I regarded it an ill-considered statement back then, and I do even more so now, having seen this Deseret News story.

 

Briefly stated, a study has shown among other things that, except for the ill-fated Willie and Martin handcart companies, the mortality rate for handcart pioneers during their trek was not much different from the general population -- just as I maintained back in October when this thread was new.

 

There are other interesting facts in this story. For example, during the Mormon pioneer era from 1847 to 1869, the infant mortality rate on the trail was actually lower than the general. population.

 

 

From the article:

 

The Willie and Martin handcart companies suffered a mortality rate of 16.5 percent, the study found. The other eight handcart companies were far safer, with a mortality rate of 4.7. One handcart company had no deaths.

 

I'm not dure where he got that 4.7 figure.  I do the math, and the mortality rate for the other eight companies alone is around 2.9.  When you add the Martin and Willie numbers in, the mortality rate for all 10 companies is between 9.0 and 9.7.  (The range is apparently because of some uncertainty in the number of dead, 150-170, in the Martin company.

 

(Here's the link for the data: https://www.lds.org/ensign/2006/07/some-must-push-and-some-must-pull?lang=eng&query=bashore )

 

I also think that, when evaluating the success of the handcart experience, you have to include the Martin and Willie companies, especially since even with them it's such a small sample and minor part of the pioneer experience.  You can't just eliminate 1/5 of the experience, more than 1/5 since those two companies were by far the largest, and look and the remainder to evaluate the experience.  It would be like saying, but for those times that the parachute doesn't open, skydiving is a low risk activity.

[Scott Lloyd]

From the article:

 

The Willie and Martin handcart companies suffered a mortality rate of 16.5 percent, the study found. The other eight handcart companies were far safer, with a mortality rate of 4.7. One handcart company had no deaths.

 

I'm not dure where he got that 4.7 figure.  I do the math, and the mortality rate for the other eight companies alone is around 2.9.  When you add the Martin and Willie numbers in, the mortality rate for all 10 companies is between 9.0 and 9.7.  (The range is apparently because of some uncertainty in the number of dead, 150-170, in the Martin company.

 

(Here's the link for the data: https://www.lds.org/ensign/2006/07/some-must-push-and-some-must-pull?lang=eng&query=bashore )

 

I also think that, when evaluating the success of the handcart experience, you have to include the Martin and Willie companies, especially since even with them it's such a small sample and minor part of the pioneer experience.  You can't just eliminate 1/5 of the experience, more than 1/5 since those two companies were by far the largest, and look and the remainder to evaluate the experience.  It would be like saying, but for those times that the parachute doesn't open, skydiving is a low risk activity.

In evaluating the handcart venture (as opposed to the entire Mormon Pioneer Trail experience) I choose to bracket the Willie and Martin companies because of the uniqueness of the perfect storm of circumstances that beset those two companies. These would include the lateness of departure occasioned by the handcarts not being ready at the time they were needed, a larger-than-expected number of emigrants, abnormal delays in needed repairs at the way-station in Florence, plus the earlier than normal onset of winter weather on the high plains of Wyoming.

 

While the experience of the Martin and Willie companies should not be ignored, I don't think it fair or accurate to judge the entire handcart venture according to what happened to them, especially when the other handcart companies were by any reasonable measure successful. And I certainly think it ill considered to say the entire venture was a disaster just because of the misfortune that beset two of the companies.

 

With the lessons learned from the Willie and Martin company disaster, the handcart venture in all likelihood would have continued successfully after 1860, were it not for the coming of the U.S. Army to Utah to put down a supposed rebellion. Warfare was averted, but the army remained based in the territory.

 

After 1860, handcarts were unnecessary because of the new-found availability of inexpensive and plentiful wagons and supplies, in surplus, ironically, because of the coming of the army in the above noted invasion. The Church was then able to send "down-and-back" teams to carry the emigrants to the valley with the help of supply stations set up along the way. And, of course, the transcontinental railroad was completed in 1869, scarcely a decade after the last handcart company, and converts could come to Zion speedily, riding in the relative comfort of railroad passenger cars.

 

Like the Pony Express, the handcart venture was beneficial, even necessary, but was needed for only a relatively brief period.

 

Edited to add:

 

I recommend this terse but informative Utah History Encyclopedia entry by eminent Mormon Trail historian William G. Hartley.

Edited July 28, 2014 by Scott Lloyd

[rongo]

Scott:

 

No, according to my family member (a stake clerk), in *every* trek, regardless of location, units pay the Church $50 per participant. It's an internal transfer, meaning that the net money doesn't change, just the category via the transfer. I specifically asked about special cases such as you suggested, and he emphasized that there is an assessment for every trek.

 

I would be very interested in any corroboration (negative or positive) from others.

[Calm]

Maybe it is for potential medical costs...practically every trek I've heard of has something happen. The Church self insures, right? $50 per participant would cover most minor stuff even if it required a hospital visit or two or three.

Edited July 29, 2014 by calmoriah

[Scott Lloyd]

Scott:

No, according to my family member (a stake clerk), in *every* trek, regardless of location, units pay the Church $50 per participant. It's an internal transfer, meaning that the net money doesn't change, just the category via the transfer. I specifically asked about special cases such as you suggested, and he emphasized that there is an assessment for every trek.

I would be very interested in any corroboration (negative or positive) from others.

This doesn't sound right to me. It sounds like someone is assuming every trek transpires at a Church-run facility. That is definitely not the case. For example, This Is the Place Heritage Park in Salt Lake City hosts handcart treks, and that is not Church-owned or operated.

[Scott Lloyd]

Maybe it is for potential medical costs...practically every trek I've heard of has something happen. The Church self insures, right? $50 per participant would cover most minor stuff even if it required a hospital visit or two or three.

If that were the case, it would apply to other stake-sponsored activities as well.

[rongo]

Scott:

 

Our treks in rural Arizona are in the middle of the desert (definitely not Church-owned property). The $50 assessment (alleged, if you like) doesn't appear to have anything to do with whether or not the venue is "Church-owned."

 

I was as surprised to hear about this as you are.

 

He mentioned it to me when we were discussing how, despite categories like "humanitarian," "PEF," "fast offering," "tithing," "profit from Church-owned businesses," etc., there is actually only one Church checking account (Bishop Burton emphasized this when he visited our stake conference a few years ago. All Church money of any kind is thrown into one big pot, although there are internal accounting categories. As he put it, "There is only one checking account in the Church. It's one that has 200,000 people who can sign checks on it, and it is a very big checking account").

 

I found that interesting in light of the Church insisting that no tithing funds were used for City Creek. From an internal accounting perspective, that's true, but seen another way, all Church funds are put into one big checking account (for the record, I wouldn't care at all if "straight up" tithing had been used).

 

When I mentioned this, that's when my relative brought up different forms of "category transfers," such as mandatory trek assessments, that are done for accounting purposes. The amount "in the pot" stays the same, but the category changes.

[ERayR]

Scott:

 

No, according to my family member (a stake clerk), in *every* trek, regardless of location, units pay the Church $50 per participant. It's an internal transfer, meaning that the net money doesn't change, just the category via the transfer. I specifically asked about special cases such as you suggested, and he emphasized that there is an assessment for every trek.

 

I would be very interested in any corroboration (negative or positive) from others.

 

I am thinking that is a reservation fee.  The total cost is much more.

[ERayR]

Scott:

 

Our treks in rural Arizona are in the middle of the desert (definitely not Church-owned property). The $50 assessment (alleged, if you like) doesn't appear to have anything to do with whether or not the venue is "Church-owned."

 

I was as surprised to hear about this as you are.

 

He mentioned it to me when we were discussing how, despite categories like "humanitarian," "PEF," "fast offering," "tithing," "profit from Church-owned businesses," etc., there is actually only one Church checking account (Bishop Burton emphasized this when he visited our stake conference a few years ago. All Church money of any kind is thrown into one big pot, although there are internal accounting categories. As he put it, "There is only one checking account in the Church. It's one that has 200,000 people who can sign checks on it, and it is a very big checking account").

 

I found that interesting in light of the Church insisting that no tithing funds were used for City Creek. From an internal accounting perspective, that's true, but seen another way, all Church funds are put into one big checking account (for the record, I wouldn't care at all if "straight up" tithing had been used).

 

When I mentioned this, that's when my relative brought up different forms of "category transfers," such as mandatory trek assessments, that are done for accounting purposes. The amount "in the pot" stays the same, but the category changes.

 

It is called not-for-profit accounting.  Governmental accounting is the same.  In governmental accounting each activity (fire, police, etc) is a separate account of the governmental unit. 

[rongo]

ERayR:

 

This fee is simply to "Salt Lake" when units do a trek. It does not include food, clothing prep, supplies, etc., which are borne directly by the units.

 

Our stake has never had reservation fees, since it just uses the desert near the Mormon Battalion site (Sonoran Desert between Maricopa and Gila Bend ---- the Butterfield Stage Route). That part is cost-free, for us. I'm sure other places have to pay a fee for land use.

[ERayR]

ERayR:

 

This fee is simply to "Salt Lake" when units do a trek. It does not include food, clothing prep, supplies, etc., which are borne directly by the units.

 

Our stake has never had reservation fees, since it just uses the desert near the Mormon Battalion site (Sonoran Desert between Maricopa and Gila Bend ---- the Butterfield Stage Route). That part is cost-free, for us. I'm sure other places have to pay a fee for land use.

 

I think you are misunderstanding me.  Having been a ward clerk I have written checks for all sorts of activities.  What I am talking about is when a ward decides to participate in one of these activities they must pay a per capita reservation fee to hold that number of positions open for those dates.  Sometime later but before the activity takes place the rest of the fee must be paid.  It is simply a reservation fee which is part of the total cost to reserve X number of slots for a certain date.

[Bernard Gui]

I brought this up before, but never received a satisfactory answer....

Does trek planning include the creation of moderately "stressful" situations or controlled emergencies where 

prayer, fasting, or blessings are suggested by leaders? I know of several situations in local

treks where that happened. Is that a general practice?

 

I compare it with set-up activities at the BSA Woodbadge training that are intended to

create certain situations and emotional responses. I didn't appreciate being manipulated like that.

Edited July 29, 2014 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

I think you are misunderstanding me.  Having been a ward clerk I have written checks for all sorts of activities.  What I am talking about is when a ward decides to participate in one of these activities they must pay a per capita reservation fee to hold that number of positions open for those dates.  Sometime later but before the activity takes place the rest of the fee must be paid.  It is simply a reservation fee which is part of the total cost to reserve X number of slots for a certain date.

Here is a second vote from another ward clerk. Last year we received a breakdown of the costs for all stake youth activities with the costs paid for by the stake, the ward, and the individual. There was a certain amount budgeted for each activity and there was no $50 fee that was sent to SLC.

[bluebell]

I brought this up before, but never received a satisfactory answer....

Does trek planning include the creation of moderately "stressful" situations or controlled emergencies where

prayer, fasting, or blessings are suggested by leaders? I know of several situations in local

treks where that happened. Is that a general practice?

I compare it with set-up activities at the BSA Woodbadge training that are intended to

create certain situations and emotional responses. I didn't appreciate being manipulated like that.

Not in any of the treks I'm familiar with.

The only time I've seen that happen even remotely was during one girls camp and it was used to pass off a first aid requirement.

[ERayR]

I have been searching but can not find fees and costs for treks.

[Scott Lloyd]

I am thinking that is a reservation fee. The total cost is much more.

That makes sense. Or perhaps an impact fee paid to property owners or, if on public land, the government.

[Scott Lloyd]

I brought this up before, but never received a satisfactory answer....

Does trek planning include the creation of moderately "stressful" situations or controlled emergencies where

prayer, fasting, or blessings are suggested by leaders? I know of several situations in local

treks where that happened. Is that a general practice?

I compare it with set-up activities at the BSA Woodbadge training that are intended to

create certain situations and emotional responses. I didn't appreciate being manipulated like that.

When I was at the trek at Martin's Cove for handcart pioneer descendants (and bear in mind this was for families, not just youth) there was no such component. Some of the Trekkers were told their handcarts had broken down and they had to drop out of line and catch up later with the company. And there was a point where some had to pull their carts up a hill while others, symbolizing those who had died, watched from the sidelines. And as the trek was starting out, some of the missionaries at the historic site yelled out jeers and catcalls to simulate persecution. But I don't think this is what you mean.

[Scott Lloyd]

Scott:

Our treks in rural Arizona are in the middle of the desert (definitely not Church-owned property). The $50 assessment (alleged, if you like) doesn't appear to have anything to do with whether or not the venue is "Church-owned."

I was as surprised to hear about this as you are.

He mentioned it to me when we were discussing how, despite categories like "humanitarian," "PEF," "fast offering," "tithing," "profit from Church-owned businesses," etc., there is actually only one Church checking account (Bishop Burton emphasized this when he visited our stake conference a few years ago. All Church money of any kind is thrown into one big pot, although there are internal accounting categories. As he put it, "There is only one checking account in the Church. It's one that has 200,000 people who can sign checks on it, and it is a very big checking account").

I found that interesting in light of the Church insisting that no tithing funds were used for City Creek. From an internal accounting perspective, that's true, but seen another way, all Church funds are put into one big checking account (for the record, I wouldn't care at all if "straight up" tithing had been used).

When I mentioned this, that's when my relative brought up different forms of "category transfers," such as mandatory trek assessments, that are done for accounting purposes. The amount "in the pot" stays the same, but the category changes.

I still reject the notion that City Creek comes from the tithing "pot."

I don't know how City Creek books are managed, but the for-profit newspaper I work for is under the Deseret Management Corp. umbrella along with a number of other commercial entities: KSL Television and Radio, other broadcast stations, Deseret Digital Media, Deseret Book, Beneficial Life, Temple Square Hospitality. I think there might be severe tax consequences if ecclesiastical donations were mingled with the funds from these commercial entities as you suggest.

But I hasten to add I'm no tax attorney.

Edited July 30, 2014 by Scott Lloyd

[halconero]

When I was at the trek at Martin's Cove for handcart pioneer descendants (and bear in mind this was for families, not just youth) there was no such component. Some of the Trekkers were told their handcarts had broken down and they had to drop out of line and catch up later with the company. And there was a point where some had to pull their carts up a hill while others, symbolizing those who had died, watched from the sidelines. And as the trek was starting out, some of the missionaries at the historic site yelled out jeers and catcalls to simulate persecution. But I don't think this is what you mean.

 

I believe this refers to instances such as the one I experienced a few years back in 2009, where some leaders (without informing most of the adults participating) simulated a child getting lost. We stopped the carts and looked around for about 2.5 hours with people praying, crying and several adult leaders in a panic. I'll just say that when it was revealed that it was all an illusion to create those feelings people were ticked.

[Scott Lloyd]

I believe this refers to instances such as the one I experienced a few years back in 2009, where some leaders (without informing most of the adults participating) simulated a child getting lost. We stopped the carts and looked around for about 2.5 hours with people praying, crying and several adult leaders in a panic. I'll just say that when it was revealed that it was all an illusion to create those feelings people were ticked.

Just wondering: Was this a trek at a Church-operated site such as Martin's Cove, or was this one done by local organizers handling things on their own?

[halconero]

Just wondering: Was this a trek at a Church-operated site such as Martin's Cove, or was this one done by local organizers handling things on their own?

Local trek organized by the Cranbrook BC stake every 4 years.

[bluebell]

I believe this refers to instances such as the one I experienced a few years back in 2009, where some leaders (without informing most of the adults participating) simulated a child getting lost. We stopped the carts and looked around for about 2.5 hours with people praying, crying and several adult leaders in a panic. I'll just say that when it was revealed that it was all an illusion to create those feelings people were ticked.

 

I'm surprised they got out of the situation without bodily harm.

[ERayR]

I still reject the notion that City Creek comes from the tithing "pot."

I don't know how City Creek books are managed, but the for-profit newspaper I work for is under the Deseret Management Co. umbrella along with a number of other commercial entities: KSL Television and Radio, other broadcast stations, Deseret Digital Media, Deseret Book, Beneficial Life, Temple Square Hospitality. I think there might be severe tax consequences if ecclesiastical donations were mingled with the funds from these commercial entities as you suggest.

But I hasten to add I'm no tax attorney.

 

The Churches ecclesiastic activities are all under the Corporation of the  First Presidency which has one bank account.

 

The commercial ventures are under the umbrella of Deseret Management Co.  I would bet the separate companies included in this management co operate with separate bank accounts.

Edited July 30, 2014 by ERayR

[rongo]

My relative certainly may be wrong about the $50 assessment/fee. It sounded strange to me when he told me.

[ERayR]

My relative certainly may be wrong about the $50 assessment/fee. It sounded strange to me when he told me.

 

I did some searching online for costs of treks but came up with nothing.