Youth Treks

[bluebell]

Here is a description of the "women pull" from a trek website. At what point does this become emotional manipulation?

Make sure to focus on the spiritual aspect. Our women's pull is always one of the most spiritual experiences. Our first year was the best. Our stake had organized for some young men from another stake to come dressed in proper military attire from the time of the pioneers. They were playing instruments as they arrived at our break site. Prior to them arriving, during our break our aunts and uncles (trail walkers) started talking about some of the trials of the pioneers. As they finished they were talking about how men had to leave their families to go help others, perhaps they died, or they left to serve for their country who had abandoned them. At this point, the cavalry arrived. They then took all the men and left us women to fend for ourselves. We were nearing dusk and very tired. Some were crying, including some of the men. We were discussing how difficult it had been to pull the wagons with the men and how we didn't know how we would do it. Well, with the Ma's in the yoke and the girls on the ropes, behind, and one in the yoke, we pulled out. It was a struggle, but a very spiritual experience. There is no talking during our pull. Our stake chooses the most difficult part of the trail for our women's pull. Our girls are strong and they prove this not only to others, but most importantly to themselves. As we pulled up a very long and steep hill, as we came near the top, we saw that there was a short flat area and then another hill. At the top of the second hill, we saw our men. They were lined up upon the crest of the second hill, with their hats off in honor of us women. WOW, tears are flowing again as I write this. As we came upon the men, they had been instructed not to touch the wagons or to assist in any way. All they could do was provide encouragement through a rub of the shoulders, a push on the back, a squeeze, etc. Still no talking allowed. At the end of the pull, they moved us off to the left, through a field, and a steep lip. At this point, the men could assist again to help through this rough terrain. Suddenly, we could hear a harmonica and a violin in the distance playing "Come, Come, Ye Saints". Everyone was now crying like babies. The spirit was the strongest most of these kids had witnessed. We pulled into the field which overlooked the valley. What a sight. As everyone pulled into a circle with the violin and harmonica playing. We then joined together in singing. Even with over 400 people, you could barely hear anyone singing. It was so touching. Our stake president then bore his testimony as did our trail boss. We then split back into families and talked of the experience and our feelings. WOW!

 

Is it anymore manipulation that the Hill Comorah(sp?) pageant, or watching a movie on Temple Square, or girls camp? 

 

All trek is (the women's pull included) is a play that is acted out by the youth, over a few days and in the outdoors, rather than on a stage.  Yes, it is usually designed with the idea that those participating will be able to feel the spirit and learn truths thru the experience (personal truths as well as church truths), but I'm having difficulty understand why that is so wrong.

 

Listening to the YW bear testimony after a trek experience which included the women's pull, the overwhelming truth testified to was 'I know now I can do hard things'.  The overwhelming expression or emotion was one of gratitude for those who came before.  Those seem like worthy pursuits to attempt to achieve in regards to the youth.

[Scott Lloyd]

Is it anymore manipulation that the Hill Comorah(sp?) pageant, or watching a movie on Temple Square, or girls camp? 

 

All trek is (the women's pull included) is a play that is acted out by the youth, over a few days and in the outdoors, rather than on a stage.  Yes, it is usually designed with the idea that those participating will be able to feel the spirit and learn truths thru the experience (personal truths as well as church truths), but I'm having difficulty understand why that is so wrong.

 

Listening to the YW bear testimony after a trek experience which included the women's pull, the overwhelming truth testified to was 'I know now I can do hard things'.  The overwhelming expression or emotion was one of gratitude for those who came before.  Those seem like worthy pursuits to attempt to achieve in regards to the youth.

For that matter, is it manipulation for CES to hire a particularly skillful and engaging teacher, knowing his potential to be an influence for good among the young people he teaches?

[Nathair/|\]

We had the womens' pull, but I don't remember anything being said about the Mormon Battalion.  

[Bernard Gui]

Is it anymore manipulation that the Hill Comorah(sp?) pageant, or watching a movie on Temple Square, or girls camp? 

 

All trek is (the women's pull included) is a play that is acted out by the youth, over a few days and in the outdoors, rather than on a stage.  Yes, it is usually designed with the idea that those participating will be able to feel the spirit and learn truths thru the experience (personal truths as well as church truths), but I'm having difficulty understand why that is so wrong.

 

Listening to the YW bear testimony after a trek experience which included the women's pull, the overwhelming truth testified to was 'I know now I can do hard things'.  The overwhelming expression or emotion was one of gratitude for those who came before.  Those seem like worthy pursuits to attempt to achieve in regards to the youth.

I'm not trying to rain on anyone's trek. I would like a clarification of what "feeling the Spirit" is. Can it be summoned so easily? To me it is akin to tempting God: "here we are in this bad situation that we have set up. Now reward us with the Spirit to help us out."

Mental and physical exhaustion, sleep deprivation, fatigue, dehydration and hunger all set us up to be emotionally manipulated. When powerful feelings come, do we mistakenly equate them with the Holy Spirit? 

[Bernard Gui]

We had the womens' pull, but I don't remember anything being said about the Mormon Battalion.  

That's part of my point. Are these things used to manipulate feelings? If the answer is yes, then historical accuracy is not necessary.

[Bernard Gui]

For that matter, is it manipulation for CES to hire a particularly skillful and engaging teacher, knowing his potential to be an influence for good among the young people he teaches?

That's an excellent question. Isn't it the Spirit that teaches. This suggests it is the attraction of a skillful teacher or a pretty presentation that is paramount. Some say they feel the Spirit when a talented singer performs a sacred hymn. Do they say the same if it is sung out of tune or words are flubbed? This goes to the heart of my question: How do we distinguish between emotion and Spirit? Can we summon the Spirit through contrived trek or other such experiences? 

[Bernard Gui]

Do you have a link or a reference to this website?

 

I certainly hope it's not a Church-sponsored website, as it would be an example of the anachronism that  I and others have criticized, whereby U.S. military are depicted as coming in and recruiting the men, when that sort of thing never happened with any of the handcart companies, but actually took place a decade or more earlier during the initial 1846-47 exodus from Nauvoo.

It is not a Church-sponsored website. Just Google "Planning LDS treks." There is a plethora of websites.

[Bernard Gui]

On another trek website I found these instructions:

Orientation (Instructed by Stake Trek Specialists): 

1. Covers how to be a Ma/Pa – provide each ma/pa couple with their own training manual

2. Discuss trek route - maps

3. Basic Trek Itinerary (don’t give away surprises)

4. FAQs

   Orientation (Instructed by Stake Trek Specialists): 

   1. Covers how to be a Ma/Pa – provide each ma/pa couple with their own training manual

   2. Discuss trek route - maps

   3. Basic Trek Itinerary (don’t give away surprises)

   4. FAQs

What are some of the surprises we are not supposed to give away?

[Calm]

I'm not trying to rain on anyone's trek. I would like a clarification of what "feeling the Spirit" is. Can it be summoned so easily? To me it is akin to tempting God: "here we are in this bad situation that we have set up. Now reward us with the Spirit to help us out."

Mental and physical exhaustion, sleep deprivation, fatigue, dehydration and hunger all set us up to be emotionally manipulated. When powerful feelings come, do we mistakenly equate them with the Holy Spirit? 

Isn't fasting somewhat like that though?  I do agree that one needs to be careful.  I am very sensitive to music, but after so many decades of experiencing its effects in movies as well as just having it on around the house, I know when it is affecting me so I no longer worry about being confused.

[Calm]

That's an excellent question. Isn't it the Spirit that teaches. This suggests it is the attraction of a skillful teacher or a pretty presentation that is paramount. Some say they feel the Spirit when a talented singer performs a sacred hymn. Do they say the same if it is sung out of tune or words are flubbed? This goes to the heart of my question: How do we distinguish between emotion and Spirit? Can we summon the Spirit through contrived trek or other such experiences? 

I believe the idea is about creating an environment where the Spirit can both be present and is easier to listen to...good teachers can do that by helping students open their minds to new experiences rather than seeing things the same old way all the time.  Our spiritual nature is intimately tied to our mental and emotional state, imo, as in reality they are not separate experiences, just different dimensions of the same thing.  It is not inappropriate to be very emotional and very spiritual at the same time as long as one doesn't assume that great emotion equates to great spirituality at all times.

[bluebell]

I'm not trying to rain on anyone's trek. I would like a clarification of what "feeling the Spirit" is. Can it be summoned so easily? To me it is akin to tempting God: "here we are in this bad situation that we have set up. Now reward us with the Spirit to help us out."

Mental and physical exhaustion, sleep deprivation, fatigue, dehydration and hunger all set us up to be emotionally manipulated. When powerful feelings come, do we mistakenly equate them with the Holy Spirit? 

 

First, I still don't understand why it's manipulation.

 

When I require my kids to help me in the garden, for example, it's hot.  They get tired.  They get thirsty and hungry.  But at the end of the day, or the end of the season, I hope they have a testimony of 'you reap what you sow' (a theme that I believe is very important both to the gospel and to life).  Am I manipulating them?  Am I tempting God by putting my kids in a situation where they will struggle so that they can be rewarded by the Spirit?

 

Second, I've never heard of a trek where the kids are kept without food, or without water, or made to suffer beyond the suffering that occurs when you are doing something physically demanding in the warmth of summer.  Treks like that might be out there but as far as I am aware, they are the exception and not the rule.

[bluebell]

That's part of my point. Are these things used to manipulate feelings? If the answer is yes, then historical accuracy is not necessary.

 

Aren't the songs we sing in sacrament meeting used to manipulate feelings though?  Aren't the church's Mormon Messages used to manipulate feelings?  Aren't the scriptures meant to manipulate feelings?

[jkwilliams]

Second, I've never heard of a trek where the kids are kept without food, or without water, or made to suffer beyond the suffering that occurs when you are doing something physically demanding in the warmth of summer.  Treks like that might be out there but as far as I am aware, they are the exception and not the rule.

My kids' trek involved a day when they had nothing to eat except some boiled potatoes in a bowl of water. This was supposed to show them how the pioneers suffered. That was the day when most of the visits to the ER happened. I'm certain that when you have your kids work in the garden, you don't deliberately restrict their food and water.

[Scott Lloyd]

My kids' trek involved a day when they had nothing to eat except some boiled potatoes in a bowl of water. This was supposed to show them how the pioneers suffered. That was the day when most of the visits to the ER happened. I'm certain that when you have your kids work in the garden, you don't deliberately restrict their food and water.

I think we can generally agree there have been excesses in the past on some of these treks. I don't believe that is the general rule -- especially these days -- or that the entire concept should be condemned because organizers in some instances have been unwise.

[Scott Lloyd]

Aren't the songs we sing in sacrament meeting used to manipulate feelings though?  Aren't the church's Mormon Messages used to manipulate feelings?  Aren't the scriptures meant to manipulate feelings?

It is the province of a teacher in the Church -- and I'm defining that term rather broadly for the present discussion -- to seek earnestly and receive spiritual gifts. If one or more of those gifts involve the optimum, most effective way to present gospel truths in a given setting to a specific receiver or receivers of the message, I am loathe to call that manipulation, unless one considers God-inspired teaching to be manipulation.

[jkwilliams]

I think we can generally agree there have been excesses in the past on some of these treks. I don't believe that is the general rule -- especially these days -- or that the entire concept should be condemned because organizers in some instances have been unwise.

I have not condemned the entire concept, just the poor planning of the one my older kids attended. As I said, my youngest daughter went on the trek to Martin's Cove, which was a much better experience.

I freely acknowledge, however, that I find the glorification of this terrible tragedy to be a bit weird.

[bluebell]

It is the province of a teacher in the Church -- and I'm defining that term rather broadly for the present discussion -- to seek earnestly and receive spiritual gifts. If one or more of those gifts involve the optimum, most effective way to present gospel truths in a given setting to a specific receiver or receivers of the message, I am loathe to call that manipulation, unless one considers God-inspired teaching to be manipulation.

 

I agree.

 

But they seemed to fit under Bernard's definition of what manipulation is, which is why I used the term.

[Scott Lloyd]

I agree.

 

But they seemed to fit under Bernard's definition of what manipulation is, which is why I used the term.

I know. I think you and I are on the same page.

[Scott Lloyd]

I have not condemned the entire concept, just the poor planning of the one my older kids attended. As I said, my youngest daughter went on the trek to Martin's Cove, which was a much better experience.

I freely acknowledge, however, that I find the glorification of this terrible tragedy to be a bit weird.

I don't see it as a glorification of the event itself. I see it as a tribute to and an effort to gain inspiration from the faith, fortitude and heroism of some of the participants. An important distinction, that.

 

I have an article appearing this weekend based on a lecture I attended about the Hawn's Mill Massacre. The most horrific single event in the entire period of persecution of the Mormon people. But the speaker (Alex Baugh) made the point at the end that what we today should take away from it is not to hold grudge or harbor an attitude of retribution against the perpetrators; they are long gone. Rather, we should remember the faith and heroism of such people as Amanda Barnes Smith who nursed her son Alma back to health after his hip had been shot away; who prayed for and received a miracle in that he was eventually able to walk again. Or of Alma's older brother Willard, who was miraculously prevented from entering with others into the blacksmith shop, where he surely would have perished. Instead he helped six little girls escape into the woods and comfort an old man who had been attacked by mobbers and who later died.

 

Not glorification of the massacre but appreciation and remembrance of faith and heroism that attended it.

 

(Incidentally, lest anyone be inclined to fix my spelling of Hawn, be advised I have intentionally spelled with a w instead of a u. Read my story to find out why.)

[bluebell]

I freely acknowledge, however, that I find the glorification of this terrible tragedy to be a bit weird.

 

Like any kind of reenactment, from civil war reenactments to movies like Schindler's list or United 93, the reenactment is not meant to glorify the tragedy but to glorify the positive characteristics of people who went thru the tragedy and remained honorable and virtuous. 

 

It is also meant to link people who were not present for the tragedy, but who benefit from it or it's outcome in some way, to the sacrifices made for them.  This is done to instill a sense of gratitude to those people who were actually there and lived it as well as a sense of fortitude and courage to do something similar should the person ever be in a similar situation in real life.

 

[Scott Lloyd]

Like any kind of reenactment, from civil war reenactments to movies like Schindler's list or United 93, the reenactment is not meant to glorify the tragedy but to glorify the positive characteristics of people who went thru the tragedy and remained honorable and virtuous. 

 

It is also meant to link people who were not present for the tragedy, but who benefit from it or it's outcome in some way, to the sacrifices made for them.  This is done to instill a sense of gratitude to those people who were actually there and lived it as well as a sense of fortitude and courage to do something similar should the person ever be in a similar situation in real life.

 

My sentiment precisely -- except that you expressed it better than I.

[Senator]

First, I still don't understand why it's manipulation.

 

When I require my kids to help me in the garden, for example, it's hot.  They get tired.  They get thirsty and hungry.  But at the end of the day, or the end of the season, I hope they have a testimony of 'you reap what you sow' (a theme that I believe is very important both to the gospel and to life).  Am I manipulating them?  Am I tempting God by putting my kids in a situation where they will struggle so that they can be rewarded by the Spirit?

Your garden comparison is a good one, because there is a direct connection between toiling in a garden and expecting/anticipating an outcome..the harvest. However what I think is happening in these trek reenactments is that we are foisting spiritual interpretations upon a very emotional experience; an indirect connection. We go out and trudge along in the hot sun, get fatigued, hungry(get fed little), and sleep uncomfortably on the hard ground. Then, the resulting heightened emotions we feel we pin as testimony of the restored gospel, the church, the prophet Joseph smith etc.... I can honestly say that I never felt that connection.

 

The direct emotional/spiritual connection (that I felt, and was expressed by many of the kids in my group) was that of gratitude. First and foremost, gratitude for the age in which we live and the wonders of modern transportation. Gratitude for our comfortable homes and warm beds and plentiful food. Second, was a sense of respect and gratitude for our ancestors, especially their grit and toughness!

 

Second, I've never heard of a trek where the kids are kept without food, or without water, or made to suffer beyond the suffering that occurs when you are doing something physically demanding in the warmth of summer.  Treks like that might be out there but as far as I am aware, they are the exception and not the rule.

After a modest lunch, we walked till nearly 1am in the morning, only to be given a bowl of over cooked ramen noodles for dinner.

[Senator]

I think we can generally agree there have been excesses in the past on some of these treks. I don't believe that is the general rule.

 

I'm not convinced of that.

[jkwilliams]

I don't see it as a glorification of the event itself. I see it as a tribute to and an effort to gain inspiration from the faith, fortitude and heroism of some of the participants. An important distinction, that.

 

I have an article appearing this weekend based on a lecture I attended about the Hawn's Mill Massacre. The most horrific single event in the entire period of persecution of the Mormon people. But the speaker (Alex Baugh) made the point at the end that what we today should take away from it is not to hold grudge or harbor an attitude of retribution against the perpetrators; they are long gone. Rather, we should remember the faith and heroism of such people as Amanda Barnes Smith who nursed her son Alma back to health after his hip had been shot away; who prayed for and received a miracle in that he was eventually able to walk again. Or of Alma's older brother Willard, who was miraculously prevented from entering with others into the blacksmith shop, where he surely would have perished. Instead he helped six little girls escape into the woods and comfort an old man who had been attacked by mobbers and who later died.

 

Not glorification of the massacre but appreciation and remembrance of faith and heroism that attended it.

 

(Incidentally, lest anyone be inclined to fix my spelling of Hawn, be advised I have intentionally spelled with a w instead of a u. Read my story to find out why.)

Off-topic, but Alex Baugh helped me immensely in tracking down a lot of my Williams lineage. He's a good man.

[Scott Lloyd]

I'm not convinced of that.

Well, I haven't done any empirical or statistical studies; I doubt you have either.