Youth Treks

[Bernard Gui]

Thanks for sharing that shory, it's incredible what the early saints went through.  The Willie and Martin handcart story is an excellent example of the sacrifices people are willing to make for their faith, but I would like to see the modern saints also use it as an example of what can happen when we blindly follow our leaders even if their directives go against common sense or ones own conscience.

I don't agree with your conclusion. They were warned that their departure was too late in the season, but they decided to go anyway.

[EDIT] Thanks for the new and informative information.

Edited November 1, 2013 by Bernard Gui

[Scott Lloyd]

Last part of my post cut off.

As for your comment about hardship in Iowa, you aren't going back far enough. Why were they encouraged to come via an unproven method in the first place? Again, there were other options available including postponing their immigration by a year in England.

 

And you might have missed part of my post. It was not an unproven method, as there had already been three successful treks (and six successful ones transpired thereafter).

 

As for postponing their emigration from overseas, I would imagine, at that early point, everyone had good reason to expect that, once in the United States, they would be able to travel overland safely. After all, three prior companies did so.

 

Problems did not emerge until after the overseas voyage, including the fact that their handcarts weren't ready and had to be hastily constructed onsite.

 

They came because they had faith in the leadership. Brigham Young did not use the caution he should have and treated those who questioned him harshly. After the failure he said the following about John Taylor in a public discourse on 2 Nov 1857:

 

I'm not excusing Brigham Young in this.

Edited November 1, 2013 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

This is not correct. They were all done the same year (1856) in one big push. The first three waves made it, but the last two did not. The first three waves left in June and made it to the valley in late September and early October (after Martin and Willie left). It was the desire of some (including Taylor) in the leadership to have supply stations along the route and to start small to prove the concept. These ideas were rejected.

Unforeseen delay led to the late departure of the Willie and Martin companies. Had this not been the case, they may well have made it safely as did the prior three companies. I maintain that there was a confluence of circumstances, not just the unwise decisions on the part of leaders and the members of the company themselves (which I grant), that led to the disasters.

Edited November 1, 2013 by Scott Lloyd

[Bernard Gui]

In my post about our family trek experiences, I asked if organizers actually plan activities that

cause stress or fear so that prayer and blessings are sought. Having been through BSA Woodbadge

training, I know several activities there are planned and intended to cause emotional reactions. For

this reason I do not recommend Woodbadge...those things seem more like brainwashing than

education and inspiration. Does this occur on treks?

[Scott Lloyd]

In my post about our family trek experiences, I asked if organizers actually plan activities that

cause stress or fear so that prayer and blessings are sought. Having been through BSA Woodbadge

training, I know several activities there are planned and intended to cause emotional reactions. For

this reason I do not recommend Woodbadge...those things seem more like brainwashing than

education and inspiration. Does this occur on treks?

As I've mentioned, I went along in 2011 for a reunion trek at Martin's Cove for descendants of the Martin company. It was not a youth trek; it involved families. But I imagine it was much the same.

 

I don't recall anything even remotely close to the ordeals that I have heard about in wilderness survival activities and such: no butchering of animals for food or anything of that nature.

 

At the outset of the trek, some of the missionaries at the historic site were role playing by mocking and jeering the trekkers, a mild simulation of persecution that some of the handcart travelers encountered.

 

There was a point where women and girls were obliged to pull handcarts up a hill unassisted by men. And at one point, participants forded a shallow point in the Sweetwater River while pulling their handcarts.

 

Everyone seemed to come through it all without emotional trauma.

 

I have heard that on some treks at Martin's Cove, some of the youth are given dolls and told that they represent their infant children. Later the dolls are taken from them, and they are told that their baby has died. I imagine this evokes some emotional reaction.

 

However, I heard from a past participant (an adult "ma" leader) that the youth on her trek didn't take this seriously and some were using the doll to play football with.

Edited November 1, 2013 by Scott Lloyd

[Bernard Gui]

As I've mentioned, I went along in 2011 for a reunion trek at Martin's Cove for descendants of the Martin company. It was not a youth trek; it involved families. But I imagine it was much the same.

 

I don't recall anything even remotely close to the ordeals that I have heard about in wilderness survival activities and such: no butchering of animals for food or anything of that nature.

 

At the outset of the trek, some of the missionaries at the historic site were role playing by mocking and jeering the trekkers, a mild simulation of persecution that some of the handcart travelers encountered.

 

There was a point where women and girls were obliged to pull handcarts up a hill unassisted by men. And at one point, they were obliged to ford a shallow point in the Sweetwater River while pulling their handcarts.

 

Everyone seemed to come through it all without emotional trauma.

 

I have heard that on some treks at Martin's Cove, some of the youth are given dolls and told that they represent their infant children. Later the dolls are taken from them, and they are told that their baby has died. I imagine this evokes some emotional reaction.

 

However, I heard from a past participant (an adult "ma" leader) that the youth on her trek didn't take this seriously and some were using the doll to play football with.

Thanks for the information, Scott. Our local treks began when the stake contracted with a professional "trek" outfitter. After that, local leaders figured they could do it cheaper, so it became a stake YM-YW activity. The amount of effort (time and resources) is staggering. Personally, I think a fraction of that could be put into a significant and meaningful service project, but that's just my opinion. [EDIT] I'm not comfortable calling the leaders Ma and Pa. We did that for a while in our BYU ward "families" back in the late 60s, but the stake president asked us not to do that.

Edited November 1, 2013 by Bernard Gui

[SeekingUnderstanding]

Unforeseen delay led to the late departure of the Willie and Martin companies. Had this not been the case, they may well have made it safely as did the prior three companies. I maintain that there were a confluence of circumstances, not just the unwise decisions on the part of leaders and the members of the company themselves (which I grant), that led to the disasters.

This is true. I have the opportunity to investigate industry incidents and there is never one single cause of failure. I will also say that I admire the faith of not just those pioneers making the journey, but also the efforts of flawed leaders like Brigham Young who served the kingdom the best they knew how.  That said, the Martin and Willie companies demonstrate the fallibility of our leaders, and also demonstrate the problems of blind faith and blind obedience to fallible leaders.  It shows that God will not save us from bad decisions (whether our own or those of our leaders).

[Bernard Gui]

It shows that God will not save us from bad decisions (whether our own or those of our leaders).

Yet that is exactly what has happened on our local treks...either planned or accidental situations in which

prayer and blessings are sought to remedy an emergency situation.

[Scott Lloyd]

This is true. I have the opportunity to investigate industry incidents and there is never one single cause of failure. I will also say that I admire the faith of not just those pioneers making the journey, but also the efforts of flawed leaders like Brigham Young who served the kingdom the best they knew how.  That said, the Martin and Willie companies demonstrate the fallibility of our leaders, and also demonstrate the problems of blind faith and blind obedience to fallible leaders.  It shows that God will not save us from bad decisions (whether our own or those of our leaders).

The Mountain Meadows Massacre is an even more stark demonstration of this lesson.

[ERayR]

We sent our eldest son on a Martin's Cove trek two years ago (we live in the Salt Lake Valley, far enough away that it was necessary to charter buses for transportation). We didn't pay anywhere near $400 to send him. What we did pay was negligible enough that I don't even recall what it was.

 

Perhaps the activity was subsidized from stake budget funds.

 

Prices came from here:

 

http://handcart-trek.org/hand-carts.html

 

Subsidized or not I distinctly remember instruction to bishops about high priced activities for the youth.

[Bernard Gui]

Can someone address my basic concern with treks. Is the purpose of treks to build or create testimonies? 

[Scott Lloyd]

Prices came from here:

 

http://handcart-trek.org/hand-carts.html

 

I note there's a disclaimer about it not being an official Church website (which, I grant, doesn't necessarily make the information inaccurate).

 

 

Subsidized or not I distinctly remember instruction to bishops about high priced activities for the youth.

 

I remember it as well -- though I'm not clear on whether this was in general or whether it had specific reference to the price paid by the individuals or families in the ward. As I mentioned, our family did not find the Martin's Cove adventure inordinately expensive.

[ERayR]

Last part of my post cut off.

As for your comment about hardship in Iowa, you aren't going back far enough. Why were they encouraged to come via an unproven method in the first place? Again, there were other options available including postponing their immigration by a year in England. They came because they had faith in the leadership. Brigham Young did not use the caution he should have and treated those who questioned him harshly. After the failure he said the following about John Taylor in a public discourse on 2 Nov 1857:

 

 

Quote

"John Taylor had put his foot on the people coming to this place by hand carts; he did everything he could against it in secret... Taylor designed to have them caught in the snow that his word might be fulfilled."

 

So John Taylor was able to control and direct the weather.  Hmm I doubt very much he had anything to do with the early blizzards that caught the Willey and Martin companies.  Look at that area now they are having cold nights but no blizzards and it was on Oct. 19 the first blizzard hit.  Now on Nov 1 it is freezing at night but days are not unpleasant.  In normal times they would have been fine but that Taylor just had to call a blizzard down on them.

[Scott Lloyd]

Can someone address my basic concern with treks. Is the purpose of treks to build or create testimonies? 

I definitely get the impression that is the intent -- or, at least, the hope -- having had our eldest child participate in one.

 

Our stake has sponsored two of them now, and there is always a meeting later in which youth share their experiences and testimonies.

 

And our ward fast-and-testimony meetings after a trek experience typically have a high concentration of youth bearing tearful testimonies.

Edited November 1, 2013 by Scott Lloyd

[Spammer]

I went on one of these back in the spring of '82, during junior year in high school.  We trekked and camped somewhere in Provo Canyon.  I remember having a great time, pulling carts in jeans and button shirts while the girls had to wear dresses and bonnets; killing and plucking turkeys; washing a girl's hair in an icy creek before she washed mine (that was an actual assignment); walking behind the carts for a while, while the girls pulled them, and thinking that was awesome; waking up one morning with snow covering the bottom half of my sleeping bag (the top half was under a tarp); listening to an inspiring talk during the fireside on Saturday night, followed by everyone being asked to go off by themselves in the woods to think about the pioneer's sacrifices and for personal prayer.  It was a dreary, drizzly afternoon.  I took a blanket and slept under a tree, trying to stay dry.  Oh!  I probably shouldn't mention this, but what the heck.  As we were walking off toward the woods, the stake patriarch's son opened up his wallet and showed us that he had brought along some.....ahem.....protection.  "In case I meet a girl who wants me to keep her warm."  Nice. [<--sarcasm]  Ok, one more memory.  The leaders taught us how to make Navajo fry bread.  I still make it to this day, drizzled in honey.  Yum.

 

I'm an Orthodox Christian now.  Besides my LDS pioneer ancestors, that gives me additional examples from the first three centuries of personal sacrifice on behalf of faith that I can look to for inspiration.  I won't be recommending any reenactments of their experiences, however.  Participating in reenactments of beheadings, crucifixions, being fed to lions in the arena, torture and dismemberment, likely won't be as much fun as my pioneer trek was.  Not unless it's done tongue in cheek style, as in the gladiator scene Monty Python's Life of Brian. 

Edited November 1, 2013 by Spammer

[Bernard Gui]

I definitely get the impression that is the intent -- or, at least, the hope -- having had our eldest child participate in one.

 

Our stake has sponsored two of them now, and there is always a meeting later in which youth share their experiences and testimonies.

 

And our ward fast-and-testimony meetings after a trek experience typically have a high concentration of youth bearing tearful testimonies.

The same same thing happened at Woodbadge, but with adults. Is that spiritual or emotional?

[ERayR]

The same same thing happened at Woodbadge, but with adults. Is that spiritual or emotional?

 

Some of both.  One could have a spiritual experience at Woodbadge.  I can't comprehend how but it could be.

[Scott Lloyd]

The same same thing happened at Woodbadge, but with adults. Is that spiritual or emotional?

I refuse to take on the task of determining whether or not the heart-felt testimony expressed by a teenager in fast meeting is authentic. I'm inclined in all cases to give the benefit of the doubt.

[Bernard Gui]

I refuse to take on the task of determining whether or not the heart-felt testimony expressed by a teenager in fast meeting is authentic. I'm inclined in all cases to give the benefit of the doubt.

My question is do trek leaders plan events that go awry so the trekkers resort to prayer and priesthood blessings to deal with them.

[Bernard Gui]

Here is a description of the "women pull" from a trek website. At what point does this become emotional manipulation?

Make sure to focus on the spiritual aspect. Our women's pull is always one of the most spiritual experiences. Our first year was the best. Our stake had organized for some young men from another stake to come dressed in proper military attire from the time of the pioneers. They were playing instruments as they arrived at our break site. Prior to them arriving, during our break our aunts and uncles (trail walkers) started talking about some of the trials of the pioneers. As they finished they were talking about how men had to leave their families to go help others, perhaps they died, or they left to serve for their country who had abandoned them. At this point, the cavalry arrived. They then took all the men and left us women to fend for ourselves. We were nearing dusk and very tired. Some were crying, including some of the men. We were discussing how difficult it had been to pull the wagons with the men and how we didn't know how we would do it. Well, with the Ma's in the yoke and the girls on the ropes, behind, and one in the yoke, we pulled out. It was a struggle, but a very spiritual experience. There is no talking during our pull. Our stake chooses the most difficult part of the trail for our women's pull. Our girls are strong and they prove this not only to others, but most importantly to themselves. As we pulled up a very long and steep hill, as we came near the top, we saw that there was a short flat area and then another hill. At the top of the second hill, we saw our men. They were lined up upon the crest of the second hill, with their hats off in honor of us women. WOW, tears are flowing again as I write this. As we came upon the men, they had been instructed not to touch the wagons or to assist in any way. All they could do was provide encouragement through a rub of the shoulders, a push on the back, a squeeze, etc. Still no talking allowed. At the end of the pull, they moved us off to the left, through a field, and a steep lip. At this point, the men could assist again to help through this rough terrain. Suddenly, we could hear a harmonica and a violin in the distance playing "Come, Come, Ye Saints". Everyone was now crying like babies. The spirit was the strongest most of these kids had witnessed. We pulled into the field which overlooked the valley. What a sight. As everyone pulled into a circle with the violin and harmonica playing. We then joined together in singing. Even with over 400 people, you could barely hear anyone singing. It was so touching. Our stake president then bore his testimony as did our trail boss. We then split back into families and talked of the experience and our feelings. WOW!

[Senator]

Here is a description of the "women pull" from a trek website. At what point does this become emotional manipulation?

Make sure to focus on the spiritual aspect. Our women's pull is always one of the most spiritual experiences. Our first year was the best. Our stake had organized for some young men from another stake to come dressed in proper military attire from the time of the pioneers. They were playing instruments as they arrived at our break site. Prior to them arriving, during our break our aunts and uncles (trail walkers) started talking about some of the trials of the pioneers. As they finished they were talking about how men had to leave their families to go help others, perhaps they died, or they left to serve for their country who had abandoned them. At this point, the cavalry arrived. They then took all the men and left us women to fend for ourselves. We were nearing dusk and very tired. Some were crying, including some of the men. We were discussing how difficult it had been to pull the wagons with the men and how we didn't know how we would do it. Well, with the Ma's in the yoke and the girls on the ropes, behind, and one in the yoke, we pulled out. It was a struggle, but a very spiritual experience. There is no talking during our pull. Our stake chooses the most difficult part of the trail for our women's pull. Our girls are strong and they prove this not only to others, but most importantly to themselves. As we pulled up a very long and steep hill, as we came near the top, we saw that there was a short flat area and then another hill. At the top of the second hill, we saw our men. They were lined up upon the crest of the second hill, with their hats off in honor of us women. WOW, tears are flowing again as I write this. As we came upon the men, they had been instructed not to touch the wagons or to assist in any way. All they could do was provide encouragement through a rub of the shoulders, a push on the back, a squeeze, etc. Still no talking allowed. At the end of the pull, they moved us off to the left, through a field, and a steep lip. At this point, the men could assist again to help through this rough terrain. Suddenly, we could hear a harmonica and a violin in the distance playing "Come, Come, Ye Saints". Everyone was now crying like babies. The spirit was the strongest most of these kids had witnessed. We pulled into the field which overlooked the valley. What a sight. As everyone pulled into a circle with the violin and harmonica playing. We then joined together in singing. Even with over 400 people, you could barely hear anyone singing. It was so touching. Our stake president then bore his testimony as did our trail boss. We then split back into families and talked of the experience and our feelings. WOW!

 

That's a very good question BG.

 

I have held for a while now that the use of the declaration of "the Spirit" is one of the most abused phrases in the church.

[jkwilliams]

My question is do trek leaders plan events that go awry so the trekkers resort to prayer and priesthood blessings to deal with them.

I doubt that. If they did, they would be extremely irresponsible. The best-laid plans often go astray, and things intended to go badly have the potential to be disasters.

[Scott Lloyd]

Here is a description of the "women pull" from a trek website. At what point does this become emotional manipulation?

Make sure to focus on the spiritual aspect. Our women's pull is always one of the most spiritual experiences. Our first year was the best. Our stake had organized for some young men from another stake to come dressed in proper military attire from the time of the pioneers. They were playing instruments as they arrived at our break site. Prior to them arriving, during our break our aunts and uncles (trail walkers) started talking about some of the trials of the pioneers. As they finished they were talking about how men had to leave their families to go help others, perhaps they died, or they left to serve for their country who had abandoned them. At this point, the cavalry arrived. They then took all the men and left us women to fend for ourselves. We were nearing dusk and very tired. Some were crying, including some of the men. We were discussing how difficult it had been to pull the wagons with the men and how we didn't know how we would do it. Well, with the Ma's in the yoke and the girls on the ropes, behind, and one in the yoke, we pulled out. It was a struggle, but a very spiritual experience. There is no talking during our pull. Our stake chooses the most difficult part of the trail for our women's pull. Our girls are strong and they prove this not only to others, but most importantly to themselves. As we pulled up a very long and steep hill, as we came near the top, we saw that there was a short flat area and then another hill. At the top of the second hill, we saw our men. They were lined up upon the crest of the second hill, with their hats off in honor of us women. WOW, tears are flowing again as I write this. As we came upon the men, they had been instructed not to touch the wagons or to assist in any way. All they could do was provide encouragement through a rub of the shoulders, a push on the back, a squeeze, etc. Still no talking allowed. At the end of the pull, they moved us off to the left, through a field, and a steep lip. At this point, the men could assist again to help through this rough terrain. Suddenly, we could hear a harmonica and a violin in the distance playing "Come, Come, Ye Saints". Everyone was now crying like babies. The spirit was the strongest most of these kids had witnessed. We pulled into the field which overlooked the valley. What a sight. As everyone pulled into a circle with the violin and harmonica playing. We then joined together in singing. Even with over 400 people, you could barely hear anyone singing. It was so touching. Our stake president then bore his testimony as did our trail boss. We then split back into families and talked of the experience and our feelings. WOW!

Do you have a link or a reference to this website?

 

I certainly hope it's not a Church-sponsored website, as it would be an example of the anachronism that  I and others have criticized, whereby U.S. military are depicted as coming in and recruiting the men, when that sort of thing never happened with any of the handcart companies, but actually took place a decade or more earlier during the initial 1846-47 exodus from Nauvoo.

Edited November 6, 2013 by Scott Lloyd

[bluebell]

If I remember right (and I might not be), when the women's pull is presented at Martin's Cove, it is under the guise of those women who were left alone after the death of husbands, or who came on their own without husbands to help them.

[Scott Lloyd]

If I remember right (and I might not be), when the women's pull is presented at Martin's Cove, it is under the guise of those women who were left alone after the death of husbands, or who came on their own without husbands to help them.

That's my memory as well, having been along for a trek at Martin's Cove two years ago.

 

There was not the slightest allusion to the Mormon Battalion or the men being recruited away to join the military.