Youth Treks

[Scott Lloyd]

This statement from John Jaques, secretary to Presidents John Taylor and Wilford Woodruff, sums up my feelings:

 

Do you have a reference for this? I'm unclear as to whether it refers to the entire four-year handcart venture and all 11 of the companies, or merely to the Willie and Martin treks.

[jkwilliams]

Do you have a reference for this? I'm unclear as to whether it refers to the entire four-year handcart venture and all 11 of the companies, or merely to the Willie and Martin treks.

I would assume it applies to the Willie and Martin treks, but I don't have the Salt Lake Daily Herald in front of me.

One of the things Jaques points out is that, even after all the mistakes and privations, the members of these unfortunate companies owed a lot of money to the church, which was not forgiven. Wow.

[bluebell]

Thinking about Franklin Richards reminds me that this is the kind of thing that will never be taught on a trek re-enactment, but I wish it would be. We all could use a good reminder of the human tendency for arrogance and egoism when we are placed in a position of power (think section 121).

 

I've never been to trek, but I've been to martin's cove and if I remember right, they discuss the belief that certain leaders and members had that God would 'temper the elements' for them. 

[jkwilliams]

I've never been to trek, but I've been to martin's cove and if I remember right, they discuss the belief that certain leaders and members had that God would 'temper the elements' for them.

But they don't talk about how those who warned of danger were castigated or that leaders who rode in the comfort of carriages took scarce meat from the starving company. That's what I was talking about.

[ERayR]

They could make it somewhat realistic, like have them kill a turkey or chicken and cook it. Something like that. Though some of my kids Treks had some big hiccups, one had a snow storm for which they were ill prepared for and it was difficult to get warm and dry sleeping bags, clothing etc. to them, and another their leaders get them lost which meant they were walking many more miles than what they were suppose to and had medical emergencies stem from it. The Trek in our stake also provided yummy steak dinners, candy and goodies. Not even shoe leather soup, what's up with that?

 

They can not make it realistic as realistic is too dangerous for a recreational experience for kids.  I don't mind them having recreational camp outs for the youth, just don't promote them as a realistic pioneer experience. 

[Scott Lloyd]

But they don't talk about how those who warned of danger were castigated ....

On the contrary, when I was at Martin's Cove for the trek two years ago, one of the activities was a staging of the council wherein Levi Savage warned of the dangers but was overruled and then pledged to go with the handcart travelers, to suffer with them and even die with them if need be.

[Scott Lloyd]

I would assume it applies to the Willie and Martin treks, but I don't have the Salt Lake Daily Herald in front of me.

 

That's what I mean. I think the other nine handcart treks must be weighed on their own merits and the entire venture not be judged on the basis of the unique circumstances and conditions that confronted the Willie and Martin companies.

[Scott Lloyd]

They can not make it realistic as realistic is too dangerous for a recreational experience for kids.  I don't mind them having recreational camp outs for the youth, just don't promote them as a realistic pioneer experience. 

I don't think "recreational campout" quite does it justice either, as it is meant to be -- and often is -- more than that.

[Scott Lloyd]

But they don't talk about how those who warned of danger were castigated or that leaders who rode in the comfort of carriages took scarce meat from the starving company. That's what I was talking about.

At what point in the journey did Richards overtake the company? Was there a shortage of provisions then? Was there the expectation at that point that the company would encounter disaster later? As I recall, it was early on. The written recollections of witnesses may have been colored by the eventual outcome of the experience. Hindsight is 20/20, as they say.

 

I'm not excusing the behavior of Richards, but I think we have to keep things in the context of when they occurred.

[jkwilliams]

At what point in the journey did Richards overtake the company? Was there a shortage of provisions then? Was there the expectation at that point that the company would encounter disaster later? As I recall, it was early on. The written recollections of witnesses may have been colored by the eventual outcome of the experience. Hindsight is 20/20, as they say.

 

I'm not excusing the behavior of Richards, but I think we have to keep things in the context of when they occurred.

According to Chislett's journal, food was already scarce when Richards showed up.

[ERayR]

I don't think "recreational campout" quite does it justice either, as it is meant to be -- and often is -- more than that.

 

I respect your opinion and nearly always agree with you but on this I must disagree.  Girls camps and Sons of Helaman camps can and often are very inspirational events but they are recreational camps designed to inspire the participants.  I include "treks" in this category.  What I have problems with is promotions and expectations that it is an authentic pioneer experience.

[Scott Lloyd]

According to Chislett's journal, food was already scarce when Richards showed up.

Given the outcome of the journey, it undoubtedly was. I'm just wondering if, at that point, most everyone expected that the journey would be completed without delay and that the food thus would hold out.

 

It's certainly understandable that, once everybody knew the outcome, there would be some resentment among travelers and observers toward Richards and party for taking the food.

 

Was Chislett's journal entry made at that precise point in time, or was it made later?

Edited October 31, 2013 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

I respect your opinion and nearly always agree with you but on this I must disagree.  Girls camps and Sons of Helaman camps can and often are very inspirational events but they are recreational camps designed to inspire the participants.  I include "treks" in this category.  What I have problems with is promotions and expectations that it is an authentic pioneer experience.

And I certainly don't disagree with you on that. At most, they should be characterized as a tribute and an honorable commemoration.

[ERayR]

Given the outcome of the journey, it undoubtedly was. I'm just wondering if, at that point, most everyone expected that the journey would be completed without delay and that the food thus would hold out.

 

It's certainly understandable that, once everybody know the outcome, there would be some resentment among travelers and observers toward Richards and party for taking the food.

 

Was Chislett's journal entry made at that precise point in time, or was it made later?

 

One of the food sources was supposed to be hunting for game.  The early onset of inclement weather caused this source to be unexpectedly scarce.

[ERayR]

They could make it somewhat realistic, like have them kill a turkey or chicken and cook it. Something like that. Though some of my kids Treks had some big hiccups, one had a snow storm for which they were ill prepared for and it was difficult to get warm and dry sleeping bags, clothing etc. to them, and another their leaders get them lost which meant they were walking many more miles than what they were suppose to and had medical emergencies stem from it. The Trek in our stake also provided yummy steak dinners, candy and goodies. Not even shoe leather soup, what's up with that?

 

While killing animals was the predominate means of acquiring food, on the journey, killing a couple of turkeys or chickens does not realism make.

[CA Steve]

Given the outcome of the journey, it undoubtedly was. I'm just wondering if, at that point, most everyone expected that the journey would be completed without delay and that the food thus would hold out.

 

It's certainly understandable that, once everybody knew the outcome, there would be some resentment among travelers and observers toward Richards and party for taking the food.

 

Was Chislett's journal entry made at that precise point in time, or was it made later?

They already knew they were in trouble, regardless of what date Chislett wrote. On Sept 3, 9 days before the Richards group stormed through, a large buffalo stampede tore through the camp. In the morning they discovered that 30 of their 40  oxen had run off in the stampede. In effect they lost three fourths of the animals that were being used to pull the supply wagons. As a result every hand cart received an additional hundred pound sack of flour as the remaining stock was unable to pull their loads. By the time Richards came through they knew they didn't have enough teams to pull the food they would need.

[SeekingUnderstanding]

At what point in the journey did Richards overtake the company? Was there a shortage of provisions then? Was there the expectation at that point that the company would encounter disaster later? As I recall, it was early on. The written recollections of witnesses may have been colored by the eventual outcome of the experience. Hindsight is 20/20, as they say.

 

I'm not excusing the behavior of Richards, but I think we have to keep things in the context of when they occurred.

In this case the foresite of some was 20/20 as well.  There were many (John Taylor and Levi Savage included) who foresaw such a disaster. They were severely chastised by their leaders of lacking faith.  This is the lesson that we miss when we talk of the Martin and Willie companies. The disaster was completely avoidable.  It was peoples disregard for what their brains were telling them and putting blind faith in God and their leaders that led to this disaster. 

 

From John Chislett's first hand account:

John Chislett's First Hand Account

“One evening, as we were camped on the west bank of the North Bluff Fork of the Platte, a grand outfit of carriages and light wagons was driven into our camp from the East. Each vehicle was drawn by four horses or mules, and all the appointments seemed to be first rate. The occupants we soon found to be the apostle F. D. Richards, elders W. H. Kimball, G. D. Grant, Joseph A. Young, C. G. Webb, N. H. Felt, W. C. Dunbar, and others who were returning to Utah from missions abroad. They camped with us for the night, and in the morning a general meeting was called. Apostle Richards addressed us. He had been advised of the opposition brother Savage had made, and he rebuked him very severely in open meeting for his lack of faith in God. Richards gave us plenty of counsel to be faithful, prayerful, obedient to our leaders, etc., and wound up by prophesying in the name of Israel’s God that ‘though it might storm on our right and on our left, the Lord would keep open our way before us and we should get to Zion in safety.’ This assurance had a telling effect on the people—to them it was ‘the voice of God.’ They gave a loud and hearty ‘Amen,’ while tears of joy ran down their sunburnt cheeks.

[ERayR]

Here is the cost of these treks.  What ever happened to the policy of avoiding high cost activities?

 

A price list for these lists prices for a four day trek for twenty two people from $8,725 for a local trek to $57,470 for a Martin's Cove trip.

 

To me that seems like a high cost activity.

Edited November 1, 2013 by ERayR

[Scott Lloyd]

In this case the foresite of some was 20/20 as well.  There were many (John Taylor and Levi Savage included) who foresaw such a disaster. They were severely chastised by their leaders of lacking faith.  This is the lesson that we miss when we talk of the Martin and Willie companies. The disaster was completely avoidable.  It was peoples disregard for what their brains were telling them and putting blind faith in God and their leaders that led to this disaster. 

 

From John Chislett's first hand account:

I'm not so certain that we miss the lesson, especially today. I think it's pretty well recognized that some poor decisions were made (which, let us remember, were not the only factor leading to the disaster). In the movie "17 Miracles," for example, Richards doesn't come off looking very good, whereas Savage is depicted as nothing short of heroic. As for there being "many" who foresaw the disaster, I'm not so certain about that either. The accounts I have heard -- including the journal entry you cite from Chislett -- indicate that Savage was overwhelmingly opposed in his dissenting opinion, even prior to the public chastisement he received on the trail.

 

It must be borne in mind as well that there would have been costs and disadvantages associated with a decision not to embark that year. It's not clear how the people would have subsisted had they decided to winter over in Iowa City and proceed the next year. Perhaps some would have perished there as well if the companies had chosen to wait. Certainly, they would have used up badly needed provisions and resources. Remember, these were people who were so impoverished they could not afford to make the trek by the conventional means, via wagon train. That's why they were traveling by handcart in the first place.

Edited November 1, 2013 by Scott Lloyd

[omni]

Here is the cost of these treks. What ever happened to the policy of avoiding high cost activities?

A price list for these lists prices for a four day trek for twenty two people from $8,725 for a local trek to $57,470 for a Martin's Cove trip.

To me that seems like a high cost activity.

Wow, that's almost $400 per person. You could stay at a decent motel and eat out at the local greasy spoon for that amount.

[Scott Lloyd]

Wow, that's almost $400 per person. You could stay at a decent motel and eat out at the local greasy spoon for that amount.

We sent our eldest son on a Martin's Cove trek two years ago (we live in the Salt Lake Valley, far enough away that it was necessary to charter buses for transportation). We didn't pay anywhere near $400 to send him. What we did pay was negligible enough that I don't even recall what it was.

 

Perhaps the activity was subsidized from stake budget funds.

Edited November 1, 2013 by Scott Lloyd

[SeekingUnderstanding]

I'm not so certain that we miss the lesson, especially today. I think it's pretty well recognized that some poor decisions were made (which, let us remember, were not the only factor leading to the disaster). In the movie "17 Miracles," for example, Richards doesn't come off looking very good, whereas Savage is depicted as nothing short of heroic. As for there being "many" who foresaw the disaster, I'm not so certain about that either. The accounts I have heard -- including the journal entry you cite from Chislett -- indicate that Savage was overwhelmingly opposed in his dissenting opinion, even prior to the public chastisement he received on the trail.

 

It must be borne in mind as well that there would have been costs and disadvantages associated with a decision not to embark that year. It's not clear how the people would have subsisted had they decided to winter over in Iowa City and proceed the next year. Perhaps some would have perished there as well if the companies had chosen to wait. Certainly, they would have used up badly needed provisions and resources. Remember, these were people who were so impoverished they could not afford to make the trek by the conventional means, via wagon train. That's why they were traveling by handcart in the first place.

And why were the saints so supportive? They received promises of protection from their leaders. 

 

Some in the quorum of the twelve and others (particularly John Taylor) expressed extreme reservations about moving forward so quickly with hand cart system.  The urged caution, small test runs, additional supply points and other precautions.  They were not treated kindly by Brigham Young. John Taylor wrote:

 

The Hand-Cart system was to me, and to us all, a new operation. I considered that the utmost care and prudence was necessary. I wanted if a

train started, to know that it would go through. I knew of the weakness and infirmity of many women, children and aged persons that

were calculated to go, [but] I did not consider that a few dollars were

to be put in competition with the lives of human beings. I believed it

better for a smaller company to go through safe, than for a larger one

to perish on the way

Edited November 1, 2013 by SeekingUnderstanding

[Scott Lloyd]

And why were the saints so supportive? They received promises of protection from their leaders. 

 

Some in the quorum of the twelve and others (particularly John Taylor) expressed extreme reservations about moving forward so quickly with hand cart system.  The urged caution, small test runs, additional supply points and other precautions.  They were not treated kindly by Brigham Young. John Taylor wrote:

Bear in mind that the Martin and Willie treks did not transpire until after there had already been three successful treks to the Salt Lake Valley departing from the same location (Iowa City) and traversing the same trail.

 

When did John Taylor express his reservations? Before or after these three prior treks?

[SeekingUnderstanding]

Last part of my post cut off.

As for your comment about hardship in Iowa, you aren't going back far enough. Why were they encouraged to come via an unproven method in the first place? Again, there were other options available including postponing their immigration by a year in England. They came because they had faith in the leadership. Brigham Young did not use the caution he should have and treated those who questioned him harshly. After the failure he said the following about John Taylor in a public discourse on 2 Nov 1857:

"John Taylor had put his foot on the people coming to this place by hand carts; he did everything he could against it in secret... Taylor designed to have them caught in the snow that his word might be fulfilled."

[SeekingUnderstanding]

Bear in mind that the Martin and Willie treks did not transpire until after there had already been three successful treks to the Salt Lake Valley departing from the same location (Iowa City) and traversing the same trail.

 

When did John Taylor express his reservations? Before or after these three prior treks?

This is not correct. They were all done the same year (1856) in one big push. The first three waves made it, but the last two did not. The first three waves left in June and made it to the valley in late September and early October (after Martin and Willie left). It was the desire of some (including Taylor) in the leadership to have supply stations along the route and to start small to prove the concept. These ideas were rejected.