Youth Treks

[SeekingUnderstanding]

175 percent is less than double.

As I said.

[rockpond]

But I'm certain you will agree that a well-prepared and well-performed piece of music can and does provide an environment wherein those present can more easily sense and respond to the manifestation of the Spirit.

 

I devote considerable time and energy to my new calling as ward choir director on the basis of that belief. If I am mistaken in that understanding, I will be very disillusioned.

 

Keep up the good work, Scott.  I absolutely love the service that our ward music coordinator does for us in selecting hymns, choir performances, and special musical numbers.  In my opinion, her work is responsible for bringing the Spirit into our sacrament meetings more often than any other single ward member (not to belittle anyone else's contributions -- it's just the nature of her calling + her dedication & devotion).

[Scott Lloyd]

As I said.

You said "nearly double." .

[Scott Lloyd]

Keep up the good work, Scott.  I absolutely love the service that our ward music coordinator does for us in selecting hymns, choir performances, and special musical numbers.  In my opinion, her work is responsible for bringing the Spirit into our sacrament meetings more often than any other single ward member (not to belittle anyone else's contributions -- it's just the nature of her calling + her dedication & devotion).

It has been eight months since I made that post and over a year since I was given the calling. I'm enjoying it now more than ever. I have felt inspiration flow as much or more than with any calling I have ever held. I've had the chance to stretch, including doing musical arranging, something I had never before attempted. I've tried some innovative things, at the same time feeling the restraining influence of the Spirit as I try to keep our offerings appropriate and reverent. I've had prayers answered as I've exercised faith.

 

I've been able to give others the chance to stretch as well, including assigning brief solos to individuals who had never soloed in public before.

 

The only part I haven't liked -- and this continues to be the case -- is the suspense of not knowing whether we'll get a critical mass in attendance at rehearsals. This is always a challenge, despite my best efforts at prior notification and recruitment. I feel our success would be greatly enhanced if more people would come in the first place and if the ones who do come attended more regularly.

Edited July 21, 2014 by Scott Lloyd

[SeekingUnderstanding]

175 percent is quite a bit less than double. Twenty-five percent less than double, to be precise.

 

Let me get this straight, you are picking my numbers apart because I said just short of double when the actual number is 175% (based on the article's numbers)? Based on the literature I've been able to find, the a death rate of 4.7 is actually a little more than double the US 1850 mortality rate and just under double the UK 1850 mortality rate. I also drew the connection to smoking which by the age of 50 has almost doubled (about 75% increased) your chance of death to show that most people wouldn't consider that insignificant.

 

Now for irony, let's look at your statements:

" this study puts the lie to the notion that life on the trail in general was appreciably more harrowing or dangerous than 19th century existence in general"

 

"the mortality rate for handcart pioneers during their trek was not much different from the general population"

 

So whose statements regarding the numbers is closer to the truth? 

[Scott Lloyd]

Let me get this straight, you are picking my numbers apart because I said just short of double when the actual number is 175% (based on the article's numbers)?

175 percent is not "just short of double." That sounds more like 195 percent.

 

Based on the literature I've been able to find, the a death rate of 4.7 is actually a little more than double the US 1850 mortality rate and just under double the UK 1850 mortality rate. I also drew the connection to smoking which by the age of 50 has almost doubled (about 75% increased) your chance of death to show that most people wouldn't consider that insignificant.

 

Now for irony, let's look at your statements:

" this study puts the lie to the notion that life on the trail in general was appreciably more harrowing or dangerous than 19th century existence in general"

 

"the mortality rate for handcart pioneers during their trek was not much different from the general population"

 

So whose statements regarding the numbers is closer to the truth?

 

I was going by this from the article:

In fact, the report found the mortality rate for Mormon pioneers who crossed the plains was 3.5 percent, not much different from the 2.5-2.9 percent mortality rate of the general population in 1850.

 

Whatever the differential is, I think there is an inaccurate perception that has arisen among some about widespread suffering, starvation and exposure being the norm throughout the Mormon pioneer saga.

 

As my friend Mel Bashore was quoted as saying in the article:

 

"I think we have this misperception every July 24th" — the Pioneer Day holiday in Utah — "where we dwell on the suffering in the Willie and Martin handcart companies," said Mel Bashore, a retired LDS Church history librarian who fathered the study. "But I can't look at the Mormon Trail movement as really anything other than a success."

 

I thought that an important point, given what was being said here last November about the handcart experience being disastrous.

Edited July 21, 2014 by Scott Lloyd

[rockpond]

It has been eight months since I made that post and over a year since I was given the calling. I'm enjoying it now more than ever. I have felt inspiration flow as much or more than with any calling I have ever held. I've had the chance to stretch, including doing musical arranging, something I had never before attempted. I've tried some innovative things, at the same time feeling the restraining influence of the Spirit as I try to keep our offerings appropriate and reverent.

 

I've been able to give others the chance to stretch as well, including assigning brief solos to individuals who had never soloed in public before.

 

The only part I haven't liked -- and this continues to be the case -- is the suspense of not knowing whether we'll get a critical mass in attendance at rehearsals. This is always a challenge, despite my best efforts at prior notification and recruitment. I feel our success would be greatly enhanced if more people would come in the first place and if the ones who do come attended more regularly.

 

Interesting... I didn't realize that I was responding to such an old post.  In any case, I know that our ward choir director struggles with the same challenge (attendance at choir practice).

 

Do you ever have the choir softly sing hymns in place of prelude music?  Our choir does that occasionally and ...wow... I just love it.

 

I also just realized I'm totally derailing.  So, I'll stop now.

[Scott Lloyd]

Interesting... I didn't realize that I was responding to such an old post.  In any case, I know that our ward choir director struggles with the same challenge (attendance at choir practice).

 

Do you ever have the choir softly sing hymns in place of prelude music?  Our choir does that occasionally and ...wow... I just love it.

 

I also just realized I'm totally derailing.  So, I'll stop now.

That's an interesting idea. Not sure I could get the choir in place and ready before the meeting in time to do that. And I'd need bishopric approval, of course. But it's worth considering.

 

I'm looking forward to Christmas. There's a wealth of royalty-free material online, which may be freely copied for non-profit use, from official and unofficial LDS sources and from non-Mormon sources as well, all of it good. It's an embarrassment of riches.

 

The difficult thing is making selections from the abundance and knowing what to leave out so as to keep the meeting from going overtime. (I'm very anxious about that after last year's Christmas sacrament meeting program.)

 

My radar is up all the time for pieces we can use.

 

Last Easter, when I attended the "Messiah" performance by the Tabernacle Choir in Salt Lake, I wondered if any of the choruses might be accessible for ward choir. I think I found one in "Behold the Lamb of God." Not too difficult, and the sheet music is in the public domain online. For Latter-day Saints, it would be very appropriate for Christmas, because of the use of that phrase in the scriptural account of Nephi's vision of the birth of the Christ child, even though the libretto refers to the baptism of Jesus by John the Baptist.

 

When I attended the Mormon History Association Conference in San Antonio this summer, a group performed a selection a capella at the Sunday devotional. On a hunch, I told the composer/director afterward that I direct my ward choir, and I asked him if the piece is published. Turned out he is LDS and is a local university professor. He handed me over a copy of the sheet music so that I could order more copies online. I'm eager to try it out with our group. Maybe after this summer when (hopefully) more people start coming to practices.

Edited July 22, 2014 by Scott Lloyd

[Garden Girl]

That's an interesting idea. Not sure I could get the choir in place and ready before the meeting in time to do that. And I'd need bishopric approval, of course. But it's worth considering.

 

Hello Scott...

This past week was the first Sunday the choir has been assembled and singing a beautiful hymn as people entered the chapel... what used to be an irreverent loud din of talking and laughter was transformed into "temple voices" and people finding their places and listening to the choir.  It added to and set the tone for our entire meeting... wonderful. 

 

GG

[Scott Lloyd]

No need to be insulting.

 

So it appears that this Mormon battalion/women's pull theme is a fairly widespread event in handcart trek reinactments, which could only mean, according to you, that there is an unfortunate epidemic in the church of historical illiteracy caused by "never bothering to crack open a book on Church history or pay much attention in a Church seminary, institute or Sunday School class".

 

Or maybe, since it is basic knowledge, everyone involved is simply complicit in an ahistorically contrived reenactment. 

 

Or maybe, to our relief, there are a great many members who do crack open books, pay attention in seminary, institute and sunday school class, but when going by their mere recollections simply failed to catch the mismatch in the timeline.

 

 

No insult intended. I'm only pointing out that anyone with more than a vague awareness that the Mormon pioneers crossed the plains to the Salt Lake Valley is apt to be aware that the handcart chapter is not contemporary with the 1846-47 exodus from Nauvoo or with the concomitant call of the Mormon Battalion.

 

It's OK, Senator. Not everybody is interested in studying Church history. I get that.

 

 

I acknowledge that the re-enactments typically have a component to them where women pull the handcarts up a hill unassisted. I don't know how "widespread" it is to associate that with the Mormon Battalion or to have re-enactors dressed as uniformed soldiers coming in. As has been noted here, that is quite inaccurate and anachronistic, and I would be among the first to raise an objection if I were involved in such a trek.

 

As I acknowledged above, I get that many people are not interested enough to do much studying of Church history. I wish it were otherwise, but I can't change reality.

The above exchange was from last October, of course.

 

But a couple of days ago, I had the opportunity to view some of my photos shot during the trek I covered at Martin's Cove a few years ago. (These were displayed on the Deseret News website to illustrate a column written by Doug Robinson on handcart treks in general.)

 

It turns out my memory was a bit fuzzy. The pull up the hill involved not just women, but men as well. Watching along the sidelines were trek participants -- women as well as men -- who were meant to represent those who had died along the trail.

 

So it would seem that, at least the folks at the Mormon Handcart Visitors Center at Martin's Cove definitely do not commit the anachronism of re-enacting the recruitment of the Mormon Battalion and the women having to deal with the resulting absence of their husbands on the trek.

 

Again, I would imagine this only happens on locally organized trek re-enactments put together by well-meaning but ill-informed organizers.

Edited July 23, 2014 by Scott Lloyd

[bluebell]

 

 

So it would seem that, at least the folks at the Mormon Handcart Visitors Center at Martin's Cove definitely do not commit the anachronism of re-enacting the recruitment of the Mormon Battalion and the women having to deal with the resulting absence of their husbands on the trek.

 

 

I'm not sure that's really the case.

 

A couple different wards i have been members in have done the Martin's Cove trek thing and they all participated in the women's pull (where it was females alone and all the males stood at the top of the hill).  These occurred in both the early 2000's and as recently as 2011.

 

BUT, i honestly don't remember if they used the Mormon Battalion as the reason for reenactment of the the women's pull.  

[Calm]

Perhaps it is something the leaders request.

[Scott Lloyd]

I'm not sure that's really the case.

 

A couple different wards i have been members in have done the Martin's Cove trek thing and they all participated in the women's pull (where it was females alone and all the males stood at the top of the hill).  These occurred in both the early 2000's and as recently as 2011.

 

BUT, i honestly don't remember if they used the Mormon Battalion as the reason for reenactment of the the women's pull.  

I really don't see anything wrong with that, so long as they take care not to convey the notion that the recruitment of the Mormon Battalion had anything to do with it, for, as has been made clear here, the Mormon Battalion episode transpired a decade prior to the handcart chapter in Mormon Trail history.

 

There definitely were women who were widowed during the handcart treks, as I was reminded last night when our 8-year-old daughter and I watched "17 Miracles" again.

[ERayR]

I really don't see anything wrong with that, so long as they take care not to convey the notion that the recruitment of the Mormon Battalion had anything to do with it, for, as has been made clear here, the Mormon Battalion episode transpired a decade prior to the handcart chapter in Mormon Trail history.

 

There definitely were women who were widowed during the handcart treks, as I was reminded last night when our 8-year-old daughter and I watched "17 Miracles" again.

 

And they don't convey the idea that a few days trek can really make one "know just what the pioneers went through".  

[Scott Lloyd]

And they don't convey the idea that a few days trek can really make one "know just what the pioneers went through".  

Indeed.

 

As Elder L. Whitney Clayton said in the Pioneer Day sunrise service I attended this morning in Salt Lake City: "We now pay to send our children on simulated pioneer treks that last a few days, hoping that the experience will teach them something about the price that others paid so that we might enjoy the things we do."

[ERayR]

Indeed.

 

As Elder L. Whitney Clayton said in the Pioneer Day sunrise service I attended this morning in Salt Lake City: "We now pay to send our children on simulated pioneer treks that last a few days, hoping that the experience will teach them something about the price that others paid so that we might enjoy the things we do."

 

About all they can learn in a few days is what a hardship it is to do without makeup, hair gel, a toothbrush, a TV and video games.

[Scott Lloyd]

About all they can learn in a few days is what a hardship it is to do without makeup, hair gel, a toothbrush, a TV and video games.

Perhaps it's more understanding than they might otherwise have.

 

As I said last October, I've seen some tearful testimonies given by youth who had just returned from trek, enough to make me think that something must happen with at least some of them.

[ERayR]

Perhaps it's more understanding than they might otherwise have.

 

As I said last October, I've seen some tearful testimonies given by youth who had just returned from trek, enough to make me think that something must happen with at least some of them.

 

Probably and every little bit helps.

 

I do not doubt that a small bit of sacrifice ( giving up makeup, hair gel, a toothbrush, a TV and video games for a few days) coupled with good leaders can have some remarkable results.  Included in that is girls camps and Sons of Heleman camps. 

Edited July 24, 2014 by ERayR

[Rain]

Does anyone honestly think that kids going on trek sincerely think they know what a pioneer went through because of trek?  They may say they do because of a lack of communication skills or a lack of being able to express what they went through, but I think the only time a child is going to think he knows is when that child has a personality that makes him think he knows in a whole lot of other things as well.  

 

About all they can learn in a few days is what a hardship it is to do without makeup, hair gel, a toothbrush, a TV and video games.

 

Missions are much more expensive and take much more time and some missionaries never see someone enter the waters of baptism. Some missionaries don't come home converted.  Some get in to trouble on their missions and lead others to do the same.  Yet the church and most members feel they are worth it because of the change they see in lives.

 

I sent my son on trek.  I hoped it would touch him.  I have not seen that.  Things did not go well for him there.  What I saw was that he became even more set in his ways.  But I'm still planning and excited for my daughter to go next year.  

 

 Elder Ballard said: 

 

 

Our goal should always be to use the programs of the Church as a means to lift, encourage, assist, teach, love, and perfect people. “Remember the worth of souls is great in the sight of God” (D&C 18:10). Programs are tools. Their management and staffing must not take priority over the needs of the people they are designed to bless and to serve.

No program is going to work for everyone, especially when the program is more of a focus than the people, but like Elder Ballard said, "programs are tools".  Trek is one of those tools that helps many.  Some may only learn what it is like to go without electronics and make-up for a few days (and what a good thing for them to learn!). Some get much more from it.  

Edited July 24, 2014 by Rain

[bluebell]

About all they can learn in a few days is what a hardship it is to do without makeup, hair gel, a toothbrush, a TV and video games.

 

Having listened to many youth bear testimony after these 'treks', i can vouch for the fact that they learn much more than that.

[ERayR]

Does anyone honestly think that kids going on trek sincerely think they know what a pioneer went through because of trek?  They may say they do because of a lack of communication skills or a lack of being able to express what they went through, but I think the only time a child is going to think he knows is when that child has a personality that makes him think he knows in a whole lot of other things as well.  

 

 

Missions are much more expensive and take much more time and some missionaries never see someone enter the waters of baptism. Some missionaries don't come home converted.  Some get in to trouble on their missions and lead others to do the same.  Yet the church and most members feel they are worth it because of the change they see in lives.

 

I sent my son on trek.  I hoped it would touch him.  I have not seen that.  Things did not go well for him there.  What I saw was that he became even more set in his ways.  But I'm still planning and excited for my daughter to go next year.  

 

 Elder Ballard said: 

No program is going to work for everyone, especially when the program is more of a focus than the people, but like Elder Ballard said, "programs are tools".  Trek is one of those tools that helps many.  Some may only learn what it is like to go without electronics and make-up for a few days (and what a good thing for them to learn!). Some get much more from it.  

 

This describes just about every kid I have known at some time in their teens.

 

I didn't mean it wasn't worth it.  If you can get them to see that some of these things are not the ultimate goal in life then it is worth it.

 

Sorry it didn't do more for your son.  My youngest is that way about scouts, depending on which day it is.

 

I am all for tools, I just wish some were not so spendy for what you get.

[Rain]

This describes just about every kid I have known at some time in their teens.

 

I didn't mean it wasn't worth it.  If you can get them to see that some of these things are not the ultimate goal in life then it is worth it.

 

Sorry it didn't do more for your son.  My youngest is that way about scouts, depending on which day it is.

 

I am all for tools, I just wish some were not so spendy for what you get.

 

This is why I don't think it should be an argument against trek.  If someone is so centered that way then trek will only be one thing on a long list of things where they know how someone feels or what they went through. (Just realized this is kind of funny because often when they feel they know how everyone feels they feel no one knows how they feel. Did I use the word "feel" enough?)

 

I understand about not being so spendy for what you get.  My son went to a lot of activities in YM that were a little expensive which I didn't see as particularly testimony, citizen or looking to the future building. 

[Bob Crockett]

If a stake trek must rely upon a for profit company, and the cost is significant, out with the trek. I feel the same way about raft trips or even expensive nonprofit Scout outings.

[rongo]

I have it on good authority (family member who is a stake clerk) that whenever a stake holds a trek, the stake pays the Church a $50 fee per person attending. This was given as an example of internal account transfers  within the Church where the net amount doesn't change, only the account does (ward/stake budget ----> general fund).

 

Anyone else have any experience with that?

[Scott Lloyd]

I have it on good authority (family member who is a stake clerk) that whenever a stake holds a trek, the stake pays the Church a $50 fee per person attending. This was given as an example of internal account transfers  within the Church where the net amount doesn't change, only the account does (ward/stake budget ----> general fund).

 

Anyone else have any experience with that?

I assume this is only the case where the trek site is a Church-run facility such as Martin's Cove.