D. Kelly Ogden's Response To Kate Kelly And Ordain Women

[SeekingUnderstanding]

I can certainly understand if a woman has issues with the wording.

 

However, since it is LDS doctrine that a man can't be a king or priesthood unless his wife is also a queen and priestess, is the issue more one of semantics than actual doctrine?

Perhaps.  I'm a man, so I don't feel adequately able to explain their feelings.  I do think that words matter though. If not, why not phrase them equally? 

[Buckeye]

I can certainly understand if a woman has issues with the wording.

 

However, since it is LDS doctrine that a man can't be a king or priesthood unless his wife is also a queen and priestess, is the issue more one of semantics than actual doctrine?

 

It's trending that way, certainly.  But the wording harkens back to the days when it was our doctrine that celestial marriage = polygamy.  Despite recent changes to the introduction to OD-1, there is still a great concern for many women that polygamy could be reinstated. 

[Avatar4321]

 

If the church really valued women, its leaders wouldn't have to keep saying how much they value women.

 

 

Darren, why don't church leaders assure the men of the church how much they are valued?

Why doesn't the friend publish an article like this?

http://www.feministmormonhousewives.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/578755_10151007889483305_1708317734_n.jpg

 

Note, this is a spoof of this article in the friend:

https://www.lds.org/bc/content/shared/content/images/magazines/friend/2012/08/fr12aug16-000-women-are-important-in-the-Church.jpg

 

Why doesn't Elder Cook tell us how incredible LDS men are?

 

 

Have you ever been married? Women need to be reassured quite often. Especially if men have treated them badly in the past.

 

And men are told how valued we are all the time. Listen to Conference this weekend for it. You will hear them tell how valuable both men and women are to this work. In fact, we are so valuable to it that Jesus Christ died for us. Pretty amazing isn't it?

[Duncan]

One thing i'll say about this whole issue is to me at least it exposes who the mysogynists are. You can be a guy and disagree with the OW movement but still not a mysogynist but then there are guys out there in the Church that IMO need to repent and change. I have heard more mysogynistic comments in the last half dozen years then I have previously. In my stake I know of at least 4 guys that I would classify as going way, way too far in their comments in talks in priesthood meetings and other stuff.  So, if anything I hope those brethren get a clue.

[Calm]

Have you ever been married? Women need to be reassured quite often.

 

Some do, just like some men.  Probably you are right that a lot has to do with what has happened to individuals in the past.  If one had opportunities to build self-esteem and confidence as a child, generally one doesn't need much reassurance though generally I have found that at the end of a long, tiring day, everyone can use a little reassurance that all that effort is seen as valuable.

Edited October 4, 2013 by calmoriah

[Avatar4321]

One thing i'll say about this whole issue is to me at least it exposes who the mysogynists are. You can be a guy and disagree with the OW movement but still not a mysogynist but then there are guys out there in the Church that IMO need to repent and change. I have heard more mysogynistic comments in the last half dozen years then I have previously. In my stake I know of at least 4 guys that I would classify as going way, way too far in their comments in talks in priesthood meetings and other stuff.  So, if anything I hope those brethren get a clue.

 

In my experience, the Saints are far from perfect. I knew a guy down the hall at me at BYU who hated Jews for some reason. I seriously hope he's changed his opinion in that regard since then.

 

I was reading Spencer W Kimball's biography. It was written before the revelation on the Priesthood ban was recieved. But it had the account of President Kimball rebuking a number of saints who were racist against blacks and the Native Americans. The Saints are by far not perfect.

 

I assume the reason we hear so much about pornography and treating our wives and family well is because the brethren see alot of members falling into those problems. That makes me truly sad. Through the years I never understood why you could be abusive towards your Eternal Companion. Then I got married and saw how easily some simple little things could make me angry at my darling wife. It seriously scared me. I never want to hurt her and if I can help it I never will. But getting so angry at times, I could see how people could lose control and do things that they were ashamed of. It made me really seek to control my anger, which i never even realized was a problem before.

 

I expect as we hasten the work of the Lord, and sanctify our lives by moving grace to grace, we will see more Priesthood power in our lives. More faith. We will see people lesson their hatred and grow in kindness in the Church. I think we need to do our duties better and love our fellow man. Start with our family.

[SeekingUnderstanding]

Have you ever been married? Women need to be reassured quite often. Especially if men have treated them badly in the past.

 

And men are told how valued we are all the time. Listen to Conference this weekend for it. You will hear them tell how valuable both men and women are to this work. In fact, we are so valuable to it that Jesus Christ died for us. Pretty amazing isn't it?

I'd like you to provide one conference talk or church magazine article dedicated to telling men how important or incredible they are.  

Edited October 4, 2013 by SeekingUnderstanding

[Senator]

 

 

I think with the very recent talk by Elder Ballard we will see more people seeing this particular insight in their experiences...now that permission to do so has been essentially given.

 

Cal, which talk was that?

[Avatar4321]

Some do, just like some men.  Probably you are right that a lot has to do with what has happened to individuals in the past.  If one had opportunities to build self-esteem and confidence as a child, generally one doesn't need much reassurance though generally I have found that at the end of a long, tiring day, everyone can use a little reassurance that all that effort is seen as valuable.

 

I know every woman might not need it. but in my experience alot of women are craving it. They have been burned by alot of men. I have so many friends that had no self esteem or self worth because of the wickedness of men they've dated or their fathers neglected or abandonment. It's made me so angry at times.

 

It's something I want to fix so my daughter doesn't have to deal with that trial.

[Avatar4321]

I'd you you to provide one conference talk or church magazine article dedicated to telling men how important or incredible they are.  

 

I dont have access to talks right now. I will try to get one for you later if I remember. I am not intentionally trying to dodge your request or anything. I just tend to forget things alot. My wife makes me keenly aware of that.

[bluebell]

It's trending that way, certainly.  But the wording harkens back to the days when it was our doctrine that celestial marriage = polygamy.  Despite recent changes to the introduction to OD-1, there is still a great concern for many women that polygamy could be reinstated. 

 

I wasn't speaking to the polygamy issue so much as to the idea that seemed to be presented, which was that the wording in the temple seems to imply that men can gain exaltation without their wives, but that wives can't without their husbands.

 

My comment was, even if it does seem to imply that (for argument's sake, and if i'm understanding correctly) we know that's not LDS doctrine.

Edited October 4, 2013 by bluebell

[bluebell]

I'd you you to provide one conference talk or church magazine article dedicated to telling men how important or incredible they are.  

 

I have heard sisters in the church lament that the talks given to YW at the General YW's conference are not as uplifting or powerful or supportive as those given to the boys at the Priesthood session.  Perhaps that is what Avatar is referring to.  Juliann might be able to provide some specific examples of that.

[Calm]

 

It's something I want to fix so my daughter doesn't have to deal with that trial.

The gentleness of my husband was one of the reasons I married him as I wanted to ensure my children knew they were loved by their father.  Not that my dad was abusive or anything and in general I see him as much better at relating than most of the men his age, just that he was so problem/work oriented (he picked that up from his parents due to the Depression having been so traumatizing to the family though they never suffered so deeply as some, just life was suddenly so uncertain for them, they wanted to be sure that it was never that way again) and not particularly interested in children, that often the only time we got concentrated attention from him was when something was wrong.

Edited October 4, 2013 by calmoriah

[Buzzard]

I realize that the sisters of the OW movement are experiencing and sharing real feelings they have. And as servants of those over whom they preside, I am sure that the brethren listen to the voices of many in the church who have a disagreement with church policies and even doctrines. But I detect a tone among some of these posts, as well as other things I have read that says since they really have these feelings, we have failed as a church unless we accommodate all who feel aggrieved. Obviously, this is a practical impossibility, but I am also reminded of a passage written by my favorite non-LDS theologian, C.S. Lewis:

 

"And yet…and yet…’ said I to my Teacher, ‘even now I am not quite sure. It is really tolerable that she should be untouched by his misery, eve his self-made misery?’

 

‘Would ye rather he still had the power of tormenting her? He did it many a day and many a year in their earthly life.’

 

‘Well, no. I suppose I don’t want that.’

 

‘What then?’

 

‘I hardly know, Sir. What some people say on Earth is that the final loss of one soul gives the lie to all the joy of those who are saved.’

 

‘Ye see it does not.’

 

‘I feel in a way that it ought to.’

 

‘That sounds very merciful: but see what lurks behind it.’

 

‘What?’

 

‘The demand of the loveless and the self-imprisoned that they should be allowed to blackmail the universe: that till they consent to be happy (on their own terms) no one else shall taste joy: that theirs should be the final power; that Hell should be able to veto Heaven.’

 

‘I don’t know what I want, Sir.’

 

‘Son, son, it must be one way or the other. Either the day must come when joy prevails and all the makers of misery are no longer able to infect it; or else for ever and ever the makers of misery can destroy in others the happiness they reject in themselves. I know it has a grand sound to say ye’ll accept no salvation which leaves even one creature in the dark outside. But watch that sophistry or ye’ll make a Dog in a Manger the tyrant of the universe…Every disease that submits to a cure shall be cured: but we will not call blue yellow to please those that insist on still having jaundice, nor make a midden of the world’s garden for the sake of some who cannot abide the smell of roses.’” 

 

I am not comparing the OW folks t o a dog in a manger, but I detect a bit of it in their plaintive "I feel unequal when..." list of grievances. I acknowledge the reality of their feelings, but is it really the churches responsibility to make sure they feel good?

 

[Calm]

we have failed as a church unless we accommodate all who feel aggrieved.

 

Just in case my own contributed....

 

I don't see the Church as having failed or its members in general, however I do see the Church as an organization intent on always trying to improve in fulfilling its missions, including "perfecting the Saints".

[Storm Rider]

I reject the proposition that "I" am responsible for "your" feelings. Thank you Buzz for sharing those words, it was far more eloquent than my earlier post on the first page. Each individual is responsible for their own feelings.

 

Cal's comment that the Church's function is to perfect the saints. Perfecting a people or an individual is not achieved without humility. The first step of the disciple of Christ is to submit our personal will for that of the Father's.  Submission does not come at the expense of questioning; I think questioning is healthy and leads to answers and greater understanding. However, the moment an individual looks to the heavens, clinches their fist, and demands that God bend his will to their wants, desires, and passions is when a disciple has left the fold and placed their foot firmly, squarely on the road leading away from Christ, his Church, and his Kingdom. 

[Avatar4321]

I reject the proposition that "I" am responsible for "your" feelings. Thank you Buzz for sharing those words, it was far more eloquent than my earlier post on the first page. Each individual is responsible for their own feelings.

 

Cal's comment that the Church's function is to perfect the saints. Perfecting a people or an individual is not achieved without humility. The first step of the disciple of Christ is to submit our personal will for that of the Father's.  Submission does not come at the expense of questioning; I think questioning is healthy and leads to answers and greater understanding. However, the moment an individual looks to the heavens, clinches their fist, and demands that God bend his will to their wants, desires, and passions is when a disciple has left the fold and placed their foot firmly, squarely on the road leading away from Christ, his Church, and his Kingdom. 

 

And that is far more eloquent than anything I can say on the matter. It's true. The humbling process isn't easy.

[jkwilliams]

I reject the proposition that "I" am responsible for "your" feelings. Thank you Buzz for sharing those words, it was far more eloquent than my earlier post on the first page. Each individual is responsible for their own feelings.

No, we are not responsible for anyone's feelings but our own. That said, we are commanded to take into account other people's feelings in what we do. Jesus said He came to "heal the brokenhearted" (Luke 4:18), so obviously other people's feelings were a major concern to Him. In the Book of Mormon, Jacob explains that what we do affects other people's feelings, and we should do what we can to repair those situations and heal "the wounded soul."

"And also it grieveth me that I must use so much boldness of speech concerning you, before your wives and your children, many of whose feelings are exceedingly tender and chaste and delicate before God, which thing is pleasing unto God;

"And it supposeth me that they have come up hither to hear the pleasing word of God, yea, the word which healeth the wounded soul."

If my wife or children are feeling unloved or unwanted, you'd better believe it's my responsibility as a husband and father to find out why and to resolve whatever it is in our family dynamic that has led to those feelings. None of us, in that situation, would say, "I'm not responsible for your feelings. Maybe you'd feel less unhappy if you read your scriptures more or went to the temple."

Cal's comment that the Church's function is to perfect the saints. Perfecting a people or an individual is not achieved without humility. The first step of the disciple of Christ is to submit our personal will for that of the Father's.  Submission does not come at the expense of questioning; I think questioning is healthy and leads to answers and greater understanding. However, the moment an individual looks to the heavens, clinches their fist, and demands that God bend his will to their wants, desires, and passions is when a disciple has left the fold and placed their foot firmly, squarely on the road leading away from Christ, his Church, and his Kingdom.

I think the bolded part may be the key to where we are not coming together. I don't think it's wise to assume that someone has reached that point but rather to reach out, even to those we might think are beyond hope. A few years back, an LDS poster told me I had passed the point of no return as far as the church goes. I was taken aback, but I began thinking maybe he was right, so there was no longer any reason to try and resolve my issues with the church. I didn't throw in the towel, entirely, but I did go through a period of a year or so where I just couldn't be bothered with the church at all. I didn't start attending church again for almost a year, and that was because my wife was really tired of people at church expressing pity for her as a result of my falling away. I figured sitting through the meetings was a better alternative than having her come home from church depressed and on the verge of tears every week. I find I like church a lot more these days than when I thought I was heading for outer darkness. Now I'm aiming for telestial.

You're right that perfecting the Saints requires humility, but maybe that means we should be humble enough not to dismiss people as rebellious or too far gone. We'll never know how someone is going to respond until we offer our hand in friendship and help.

[Peppermint Patty]

  I find I like church a lot more these days than when I thought I was heading for outer darkness. Now I'm aiming for telestial.

 

 

That was funny.

[Avatar4321]

Has anyone suggested we don't reach out the hand of fellowship for these sisters?

[jkwilliams]

Has anyone suggested we don't reach out the hand of fellowship for these sisters?

Maybe not, but it sounds to me as if some people would rather tell these women why they're wrong than talk to them about what they're thinking and why.

[Storm Rider]

JK, let's go back to Jacob 2 and look at that verbiage in context:

 

 4 For behold, as yet, ye have been obedient unto the word of the Lord, which I have given unto you.

 5 But behold, hearken ye unto me, and know that by the help of the all-powerful Creator of heaven and earth I can tell you concerning your ^athoughts, how that ye are beginning to labor in sin, which sin appeareth very abominable unto me, yea, and abominable unto God.

 6 Yea, it grieveth my soul and causeth me to shrink with shame before the presence of my Maker, that I must testify unto you concerning the wickedness of your hearts.

 7 And also it grieveth me that I must use so much ^aboldness of speech concerning you, before your wives and your children, many of whose feelings are exceedingly tender and ^bchaste and delicate before God, which thing is pleasing unto God;

 8 And it supposeth me that they have come up hither to hear the pleasing ^aword of God, yea, the word which healeth the wounded soul.

I think there is some mixing of context; the brokenhearted are those who suffer from sin and feel the pain and guilt of abandoning God's ways or commandments.  Jacob 2 is talking specifically about his pain with having to chastise men in front of their wives and children (they remain chaste or innocent before God) by speaking boldly.  These men remain faithful to keeping the commandments, but their thoughts had begun to wander from God; they were beginning to follow after the dictates of their own heart. What is so alarming is that their thoughts were an abomination before God.  I think this verse you chose has many lessons to teach. Apostasy does not begin by sinning or abandoning the laws of God, but it begins long before that time; it begins when our thoughts lead us away from truth.  

There is also being mixed up and applied to different things that I do not intend. If my actions or our actions as husbands, fathers, or friends harm another; it is not their feelings that should motivate us primarily, but the fact that we have acted badly, poorly, brashly, or without all the qualities that God's Grace directs in us. We may feel guilt and pain for doing something wrong and for hurting the feelings of another, but that is not our motivation to change our ways. For example, it is entirely possible that another observes our bad behavior toward them and it does not hurt their feelings at all. Yet, we are still in need of repentance and of asking for forgiveness. The individual remains responsible for their own feelings.

Now let's go back to Jacob; their wives and children were innocent before the Lord; they are tender and do not merit bold correction or to see their husband and father put to such sore correction.  On this board and for most adults in our day there is not much innocence left.  We live in a very coarse world.  This medium also does not allow us to "see" the feelings of others, we only have words on a page to reveal the other person to us. 

As I have said many times before; context is everything.

I will have to agree with Cal again on this; Sister Kate is not an ideal spokesperson. She very much comes across having a political agenda and she is serious that she needs the priesthood and nothing short of that will suffice. Her thoughts come very close to those I read in Jacob 2.  She appears to be in a very bad place spiritually. I wonder if it is permissible for others to speak boldly to her? 

[jkwilliams]

Well, I'm not going to belabor the point about caring about other people's feelings, which I would think is pretty much a given. But Jacob does say that the women and children came to hear the pleasing word of God, the word which healeth the wounded soul.

So, yes, I believe the gospel compels us to care about other people's feelings and do what we can to lift their spirits and resolve situations that may have caused the feelings in the first place, such as the behavior of these Nephite men.

You can't "fix" people's feelings, but you can make it easier for them to heal by removing the things that are causing the bad feelings.

[Storm Rider]

Well, I'm not going to belabor the point about caring about other people's feelings, which I would think is pretty much a given. But Jacob does say that the women and children came to hear the pleasing word of God, the word which healeth the wounded soul.

So, yes, I believe the gospel compels us to care about other people's feelings and do what we can to lift their spirits and resolve situations that may have caused the feelings in the first place, such as the behavior of these Nephite men.

You can't "fix" people's feelings, but you can make it easier for them to heal by removing the things that are causing the bad feelings.

 

Are you proposing that all things that hurt one's feelings are bad?

[jkwilliams]

Are you proposing that all things that hurt one's feelings are bad?

Of course not.

My point all along is that we can't know what is causing the hurt unless we ask. And from what I can see, Ogden and some posters aren't interested in finding out what's causing the hurt. I think they're missing an opportunity.