D. Kelly Ogden's Response To Kate Kelly And Ordain Women

[Darren10]

It's trending that way, certainly.  But the wording harkens back to the days when it was our doctrine that celestial marriage = polygamy.  Despite recent changes to the introduction to OD-1, there is still a great concern for many women that polygamy could be reinstated. 

 

Polygamy was *never* the doctrine of celestial marriage. Entering into the New and Everlasting covenant has always been the doctrine. Mormons have always collectively understood this so far as I know.

 

If polygamy were to be reinstated I'd be the one concerned.

Edited October 5, 2013 by Darren10

[Avatar4321]

I came back onto this thread tonight and one thing keeps coming to mind. We are commanded to seek gifts and not offices. Gifts are freely given to both genders. 

 

Just something to think about. Enjoy conference everyone

[Darren10]

Have you ever been married? Women need to be reassured quite often. Especially if men have treated them badly in the past.

 

And men are told how valued we are all the time. Listen to Conference this weekend for it. You will hear them tell how valuable both men and women are to this work. In fact, we are so valuable to it that Jesus Christ died for us. Pretty amazing isn't it?

 

Brilliant!!!

[Darren10]

I came back onto this thread tonight and one thing keeps coming to mind. We are commanded to seek gifts and not offices. Gifts are freely given to both genders. 

 

Just something to think about. Enjoy conference everyone

 

 

I came back onto this thread tonight and one thing keeps coming to mind. We are commanded to seek gifts and not offices. Gifts are freely given to both genders. 

 

Just something to think about. Enjoy conference everyone

 

Well said.

[Darren10]

One thing i'll say about this whole issue is to me at least it exposes who the mysogynists are. You can be a guy and disagree with the OW movement but still not a mysogynist but then there are guys out there in the Church that IMO need to repent and change. I have heard more mysogynistic comments in the last half dozen years then I have previously. In my stake I know of at least 4 guys that I would classify as going way, way too far in their comments in talks in priesthood meetings and other stuff.  So, if anything I hope those brethren get a clue.

 

Do I need to repent?   :angel:  

[Darren10]

 

 

I assume the reason we hear so much about pornography and treating our wives and family well is because the brethren see alot of members falling into those problems. That makes me truly sad. Through the years I never understood why you could be abusive towards your Eternal Companion. Then I got married and saw how easily some simple little things could make me angry at my darling wife. It seriously scared me. I never want to hurt her and if I can help it I never will. But getting so angry at times, I could see how people could lose control and do things that they were ashamed of. It made me really seek to control my anger, which i never even realized was a problem before.

 

 

 

One of the great blessings of marriage I think is that it puts you in a position to think and rethink yourself. You *must* hold to true and good principles to make a marriage work.

 

As for abusing my eternal companion, I absolutely never want to but if I did I still would not hurt her. If I hit my wife out of anger she'd shoot me dead.

 

/ I love my Niki.

[Darren10]

I'd like you to provide one conference talk or church magazine article dedicated to telling men how important or incredible they are.  

 

You ever attend a Priesthood Session?

[juliann]

Let's put this in a mortal context because God is my Father. Not just my husband's.

 

I can't imagine being asked to step back and serve my husband while my husband serves my dad. 

 

Not only that, I wouldn't let it happen because I love my dad so much that to not serve Him would create an awful ache in me. In fact, when He needs his children to act on his behalf, it breaks my heart to not to live close enough to be right there. And if my dad ever asked me to step aside and let only my husband assist him, I'd be terribly hurt. Because there's nothing I wouldn't do for my dad. Nothing. 

 

Now I don't equate serving God with the priesthood because people serve God without the priesthood all the time. So this isn't about ordination. It's about the wording in the temple. It's about me being told that I am not a priestess to God, my Father, but to a mortal, who in turn has the privilege of acting as a priest to my creator while I am effectively invited to stand at a distance. 

 

Stargazer, perhaps my analogy will seem incomprehensible to you, maybe inane, and easy to deconstruct,  but please, don't dismiss the feelings of your faithful sisters who struggle with feeling less serviceable because of the wording in temple ordinances. It is, for several women I know, a source of real heartbreak and adds to their general struggle to find a meaningful identity within our faith. 

 

Just as in Jacob's day, tender hearts are broken over this issue, And we should do what we can to heal wounds, not pretend they are non-existent.Or worse yet, to do as Bro. Ogden did and imply that women simply don't understand the temple ceremony. It's precisely because they are listening so intently that these distinctions are impressed upon their minds. 

Beautifully stated.   And I think those who are unwilling to take the time to understand before they condemn...or mock...might be the ones not honoring their covenants. 

[Duncan]

Do I need to repent?   :angel:  

 

 

um, do it! just to be on the safe side

[Darren10]

 I find I like church a lot more these days than when I thought I was heading for outer darkness. Now I'm aiming for telestial.

 

Heh! That is an improvement.

 

I liked your post.

[Darren10]

um, do it! just to be on the safe side

 

Always good advice.

[Darren10]

Maybe not, but it sounds to me as if some people would rather tell these women why they're wrong than talk to them about what they're thinking and why.

 

Oh, I'm sure many of these sisters have been reached out to by their bishops, home and visiting teachers, acquaintances at church, etc.

 

Didn't you just state that your being told you're wrong helped you in your journey towards God?

[Avatar4321]

Do I need to repent?   :angel:  

 

Well, you are mortal, so yes. But im not sure it's on that particular issue.

[Darren10]

Of course not.

My point all along is that we can't know what is causing the hurt unless we ask. And from what I can see, Ogden and some posters aren't interested in finding out what's causing the hurt. I think they're missing an opportunity.

 

If I dig up an email to Ogden will you ask him what's troubling him and try to heal his hurt?

 

Why do you assume Kate Kelley and those of the Ordain Women have not been reached out to?

[Darren10]

Which means what?  Can you describe what the role/authority/function of an eternal queen and priestess is?

 

Nope, not exactly. No one can but there's real power behind being a queen and priestess before God. It's part of receiving "all the Father hath". And that's not nothing,.

[Darren10]

But im not sure it's on that particular issue.

 

PHEW!!!!

[Darren10]

If we can extrapolate from mortal marriage, her role would be to give birth (however you interpret that) to spirit children and nurture and raise them.

 

You mean to create and raise gods and goddesses who may become God? Such peon work.

[Darren10]

My mother said some of the RS lessons made her feel like it would be similar to being a termite queen.

http://www.npr.org/2011/05/06/136028437/a-termite-queen-and-her-ultimate-sacrifice

 

I've wondered where all my building wood's gone to.

 

/"NIKIIIIIIII !!!!!!!!!!!!!"

Edited October 5, 2013 by Darren10

[jkwilliams]

Oh, I'm sure many of these sisters have been reached out to by their bishops, home and visiting teachers, acquaintances at church, etc.

 

Didn't you just state that your being told you're wrong helped you in your journey towards God?

 

No, I didn't say that. I'm sure someone has reached out to these women, but I talking about Brother Ogden's response and that of some posters on this thread, which seems to me more oriented towards telling these women why they're wrong. I'd be thrilled if someone could explain to me why I'm wrong about the church, but it hasn't happened yet.

[jkwilliams]

If I dig up an email to Ogden will you ask him what's troubling him and try to heal his hurt?

No need for snarkiness.

 

Why do you assume Kate Kelley and those of the Ordain Women have not been reached out to?

I don't assume that at all.

[jkwilliams]

You mean to create and raise gods and goddesses who may become God? Such peon work.

You make it sound as if I denigrated the LDS belief in Godhood. That certainly wasn't my intent.

[Darren10]

Let's put this in a mortal context because God is my Father. Not just my husband's.

 

I can't imagine being asked to step back and serve my husband while my husband serves my dad. 

 

Not only that, I wouldn't let it happen because I love my dad so much that to not serve Him would create an awful ache in me. In fact, when He needs his children to act on his behalf, it breaks my heart to not to live close enough to be right there. And if my dad ever asked me to step aside and let only my husband assist him, I'd be terribly hurt. Because there's nothing I wouldn't do for my dad. Nothing. 

 

Now I don't equate serving God with the priesthood because people serve God without the priesthood all the time. So this isn't about ordination. It's about the wording in the temple. It's about me being told that I am not a priestess to God, my Father, but to a mortal, who in turn has the privilege of acting as a priest to my creator while I am effectively invited to stand at a distance. 

 

 

 

What if your dad said he'd like your husband to help and you could too in a different but equally valuable capacity than your hunband's capacity?

 

Also, 'stand at a distance"? When I see witness couples called up in the temple session a man and a woman come up together, kneel together, and receive the covenants together. When is Eve ever "at a distance" to Adam after the Fall? Truth be told the woman's direct presence is absolutely essential for a man to receive his full blessings from the Lord.

 

Your husband may be worth two quarters but you're a half dollar piece. It's silly to argue which of you is seen as more valuable.

Edited October 5, 2013 by Darren10

[Darren10]

 I'd be thrilled if someone could explain to me why I'm wrong about the church, but it hasn't happened yet.

 

I've been curious and would love to start a thread on the very topic as to why you no longer believe in the LDS church. But, obviously that would not be here. I'd love to do that on my own blog but I have not touched that thing in a very long time.

 

As for this:

 

No, I didn't say that. I'm sure someone has reached out to these women, but I talking about Brother Ogden's response and that of some posters on this thread, which seems to me more oriented towards telling these women why they're wrong.

 

I'm definitely one of them who am interested to telling why Ordain Women is wrong. I don't mind at all to find out their reasons but for this thread I just want ot say how wrong they are and I think Brother Ogden makes great points in doing that.

 

 

You make it sound as if I denigrated the LDS belief in Godhood. That certainly wasn't my intent.

 

So, do you find it of eternal worth? As much as being a guy in the eternities, whatever that entails?

[mercyngrace]

What if your dad said he'd like your husband to help and you could too in a different but equally valuable capacity than your hunband's capacity?

 

Also, 'stand at a distance"? When I see witness couples called up n the temple session a man and a woman come up together, kneel together, and receive the covenants together. When is Eve ever "at a distance" to Adam after the Fall? Truth be told the woman's direct presence is absolutely essential for a man to receive his full blessings from the Lord.

 

Your husband may be worth two quarters but you're a half dollar piece. It's silly to argue which of you is seen as more valuable.

 

Darren,

 

This isn't about value. In fact, I don't think I used that term. And this isn't about serving in different capacities. It's about being told that men serve God and women serve men. 

 

It's about distance in the relationship and being separated from God by having one's husband placed as an intermediary. 

 

Clearly, you don't hear the temple wording that way but can you, given the compassion you've expressed for those who feel marginalized, understand that some women do feel they are placed at a distance - even the veiling of their faces being a symbol of the separation? And if so, do you believe simply dismissing their concerns is an effective way of lifting up the hands that hang down?

Edited October 5, 2013 by mercyngrace

[Calm]

 

Now, I ask you, can you guess just how many of those callings I've just listed either of us have gone to the bishop or stake president about and asked for?  Of course you know the answer: ZERO.  None of them.  They all came seemingly out of nowhere (except in one case where the Lord told me I was being called to the position a full month before I was called to it).  In fact, let me see how many of these callings I actually wanted?  Hmmmm.  Got to think hard about that one....  The answer again: ZERO.  None of them.  Oh, except for full-time missionary.  I did ask for that one.  But in my defense, there seemed to be a general call out there for any church member who was worthy to serve a mission. 

Besides visiting teaching, I have volunteered for all my callings save maybe four that I can remember. Whenever we came to a new ward, I would in the past inform the bishop I very much enjoyed Primary callings knowing how hard it can be in some wards to get consistent teachers...and invariably shortly thereafter I would be in Primary. Other callings I heard or saw there was an issue, in one case they couldn't find any men available for Akela..the Canadian male version of a Den mother...it was not a position usually held by women up there, another I created a unique position of being the teacher of one pupil who disrupted and terrified his Primary classmates...if anyone was destined to grow up and be a serial killer, it was him (but with some great intervention from the school district in an very special and 'elite' anger management class and loving parents he has apparently made a complete turnaround) and another was the 14-15 years old...when I heard it reported by my nephew that they had 14 teachers in one year....that was just wrong. I lasted a year and a half teaching with a couple of major class parties before we switched to the 9am slot and my disorder made it impossible...so back to the library which has become my default calling due to not being able to sit.

Edited October 5, 2013 by calmoriah