D. Kelly Ogden's Response To Kate Kelly And Ordain Women

[Darren10]

Darren,

 

Are you saying that church leaders recognize that the wording is hurtful and speak complimentary words to the sisters to make them feel better about it?

 

I am saying that the temple does indeed have a woman covenant before God, angels, and witnesses to pretty much obey her husband and the husband *as* obeys the Lord. Yes, I can see how making such a covenant can be hurtful since people, like myself, wonder, "why can't women make a covenant to obey the Lord? Why through her husband?" Truth be told, the temple covenant does not deny a direct relation betwen women and God but the wording of the covenant would make one wonder why that is.

[wenglund]

Hmmm. From this, you seem to think that my post argued that we shouldn't listen to women or express our love to them; in fact, I said quite the opposite.

 

No. I think you argued that "If the church really valued women, its leaders wouldn't have to keep saying how much they value women," and I indicated that I once thought the same way, but later learned from women to think differently.

 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[wenglund]

I appreciate that compliment but reality is that crying doesn't do much for me. I do not like suffering and pain but finding what Ordain Women are trying to do any crying from them for being turned away won't have much of an impact on me.

 

 

How dare you not be moved by manipulative tears.

 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[jkwilliams]

No. I think you argued that "If the church really valued women, its leaders wouldn't have to keep saying how much they value women," and I indicated that I once thought the same way, but later learned from women to think differently.

 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

I stand by my statement: if we treat women well, we don't have to keep telling them over and over again how important they are. That doesn't mean we don't ever tell them.

And I learned this from women, oddly enough. My wife and daughters tell me that, although words are nice, actions are better.

[Darren10]

How dare you not be moved by manipulative tears.

 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

 

[Darren10]

I stand by my statement: if we treat women well, we don't have to keep telling them over and over again how important they are. That doesn't mean we don't ever tell them.

And I learned this from women, oddly enough. My wife and daughters tell me that, although words are nice, actions are better.

 

And if you did not value them, you wouldn't do either.

[jkwilliams]

How dare you not be moved by manipulative tears.

 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

It's better to be moved by manipulative statistics.

[Brenda]

I stand by my statement: if we treat women well, we don't have to keep telling them over and over again how important they are. That doesn't mean we don't ever tell them.

And I learned this from women, oddly enough. My wife and daughters tell me that, although words are nice, actions are better.

We all need to feel important and appreciated.  It's a human thing, not a gender thing.  And as far as action VS words ...... probably the one you're shorted in, is the one you feel is most important.  I like both.  

[Brenda]

This LDS woman's perspective:  I don't feel undervalued in the Church ..... never have ..... and I've been a lowly bishop's wife twice.  The first time we were still producing babies and raising small kids and I was often left to parent alone ..... hardest time in my life EVER.  But I never resented the Church .... I resented the Lord!  Hindsight has since taught me a lot and I now count my blessings.  

 

I think society has steadily and stealthily taught us that motherhood is mindless, menial drudgery.  Any fool can get pregnant, bear children, and raise kids ..... as the subtle message goes.  Hello, BIG Satanic lie of our generation.

 

Now women are "agitating" for the right to be a bishop.  Do they not realize that bishops are often trying help people undo the damage of a bad childhood and inept or absent parents?   The influence of good bishops is good, but the influence of good mothers (and fathers!) is staggering.  So to complain that we are only here to be mothers, is as if to say, we are only here to have the biggest and most profound impact possible on someone else's life.

[Tacenda]

Brenda, I believe Kate of OW might address your post and say...all women may not want to be mothers, or are unable to. Therefore, they just want more. (Just heard that AT&T commercial in my head, with the little girl saying "We want more, more is better" ) So have PH ordinance capability, be a choice for women.

Edited October 7, 2013 by Tacenda

[wenglund]

I stand by my statement: if we treat women well, we don't have to keep telling them over and over again how important they are. That doesn't mean we don't ever tell them.

And I learned this from women, oddly enough. My wife and daughters tell me that, although words are nice, actions are better.

 

Okay. But that isn't the statement I have been addressing. Again, the statement from you that is in question is: "If the church really valued women, its leaders wouldn't have to keep saying how much they value women,"

 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[wenglund]

It's better to be moved by manipulative statistics.

 

I will have to take your word for it.

 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[jkwilliams]

Okay. But that isn't the statement I have been addressing. Again, the statement from you that is in question is: "If the church really valued women, its leaders wouldn't have to keep saying how much they value women,"

 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

 

As you say, what say we go by what people say and mean.

[wenglund]

As you say, what say we go by what people say and mean.

 

Fair enough. However, I thought I was going with what people say. In fact, I cut and pasted the quote in question directly from your post so as not to risk saying things differently from how you said it. Even still, I am fine with letting it go. Life is too short, and it isn't important to enough to continue quibbling,

 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Stargazer]

What's wrong with guy-ness? Or maybe fatherhood.  I quite like it

 

We women are constantly told that we uphold womanhood and motherhood.... (gal-ness?)

 

 

Yes, yes.  There are lots of guys out there acting like good ole boys and thinking that's the way men are supposed to act.  Give them the priesthood, and then they have something.

 

My wife has been upholding womanhood and motherhood for 72 years, without need for any extra boost. 

[Stargazer]

I stand by my statement: if we treat women well, we don't have to keep telling them over and over again how important they are. That doesn't mean we don't ever tell them.

And I learned this from women, oddly enough. My wife and daughters tell me that, although words are nice, actions are better.

 

Good heavens.  If you treat women well, but never tell them in words how much you appreciate them, they will be constantly wondering about it.  My wife has taught me this.  She wants actions, sure, but she wants words, too, and just as much.

[Darren10]

This LDS woman's perspective:  I don't feel undervalued in the Church ..... never have ..... and I've been a lowly bishop's wife twice.  The first time we were still producing babies and raising small kids and I was often left to parent alone ..... hardest time in my life EVER.  But I never resented the Church .... I resented the Lord!  Hindsight has since taught me a lot and I now count my blessings.  

 

I think society has steadily and stealthily taught us that motherhood is mindless, menial drudgery.  Any fool can get pregnant, bear children, and raise kids ..... as the subtle message goes.  Hello, BIG Satanic lie of our generation.

 

Now women are "agitating" for the right to be a bishop.  Do they not realize that bishops are often trying help people undo the damage of a bad childhood and inept or absent parents?   The influence of good bishops is good, but the influence of good mothers (and fathers!) is staggering.  So to complain that we are only here to be mothers, is as if to say, we are only here to have the biggest and most profound impact possible on someone else's life.

Loved you post, Brenda!!!

[Darren10]

Brenda, I believe Kate of OW might address your post and say...all women may not want to be mothers, or are unable to. Therefore, they just want more. (Just heard that AT&T commercial in my head, with the little girl saying "We want more, more is better" ) So have PH ordinance capability, be a choice for women.

Because of my physical condition which I was born with I may never be able to officiate in the temple. While I'd love to do so, I'm 100% OK with my reality.

[Tacenda]

Because of my physical condition which I was born with I may never be able to officiate in the temple. While I'd love to do so, I'm 100% OK with my reality.

Darren I watched TLC tonight about people that had huge tumors growing on their bodies. One guy had so many on his face that you could only see part of an eye, another guy had one that was two hundred pounds that enveloped his body. Both had surgery to remove them but only after many years of living like that. Makes me see how ungrateful I've been with the health that I have had. I feel terrible for the trivial things in life that seemed so important. I should get out of myself and go out and cheer someone up somewhere, or help others vs. having pity parties, or "I want more"parties. Not that I want anything like these women that want the priesthood.

[Storm Rider]

This LDS woman's perspective:  I don't feel undervalued in the Church ..... never have ..... and I've been a lowly bishop's wife twice.  The first time we were still producing babies and raising small kids and I was often left to parent alone ..... hardest time in my life EVER.  But I never resented the Church .... I resented the Lord!  Hindsight has since taught me a lot and I now count my blessings.  

 

I think society has steadily and stealthily taught us that motherhood is mindless, menial drudgery.  Any fool can get pregnant, bear children, and raise kids ..... as the subtle message goes.  Hello, BIG Satanic lie of our generation.

 

Now women are "agitating" for the right to be a bishop.  Do they not realize that bishops are often trying help people undo the damage of a bad childhood and inept or absent parents?   The influence of good bishops is good, but the influence of good mothers (and fathers!) is staggering.  So to complain that we are only here to be mothers, is as if to say, we are only here to have the biggest and most profound impact possible on someone else's life.

 

I have tried several times to emphasize the value of motherhood and have failed to say it as clearly as you have done so; thank you. It does not take a village to raise a child; it takes a dedicated mother and father to raise a child. There is nothing of more value or of more import. 

 

Saying this about motherhood does not include an attack on those of us who have no children. Some of us cannot have children; some of us are not married; regardless of the reason the value of motherhood is that they hold the key with their husbands to bring children into the world and without them our civilization, our very existence, collapses. Individually we have great value, but to fulfill our Father's plan we need mothers and fathers. It is not an either or discussion of comparison of value. 

[jkwilliams]

Because of my physical condition which I was born with I may never be able to officiate in the temple. While I'd love to do so, I'm 100% OK with my reality.

That is, in my experience, the perfect attitude. I spent a couple nights in the hospital a week until I was about 6 years old, and people have asked me how I could have handled it. But as you say, it was my reality, so it was just "normal" and I dealt with it. Having gone through that experience has helped me when I've had to adjust to a changing reality, such as some significant health issues I had a couple of years ago.

So, without knowing your particular situation, I will say I appreciate your attitude, and your post is a nice reminder. These days, my physical condition means my scars get stares if I go swimming, and I have trouble swallowing certain foods. But I'm alive, and I'm happy. Can't beat that.

[wenglund]

That is, in my experience, the perfect attitude. I spent a couple nights in the hospital a week until I was about 6 years old, and people have asked me how I could have handled it. But as you say, it was my reality, so it was just "normal" and I dealt with it. Having gone through that experience has helped me when I've had to adjust to a changing reality, such as some significant health issues I had a couple of years ago.

So, without knowing your particular situation, I will say I appreciate your attitude, and your post is a nice reminder. These days, my physical condition means my scars get stares if I go swimming, and I have trouble swallowing certain foods. But I'm alive, and I'm happy. Can't beat that.

 

Nicely said, and I agree.

 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Kenngo1969]

Kengo #169;

Worked for the cave men.

I, Sir, am NOT a cave man!

[Darren10]

I, Sir, am NOT a cave man!

 

You know how to disappoint.

[Darren10]

That is, in my experience, the perfect attitude. I spent a couple nights in the hospital a week until I was about 6 years old, and people have asked me how I could have handled it. But as you say, it was my reality, so it was just "normal" and I dealt with it. Having gone through that experience has helped me when I've had to adjust to a changing reality, such as some significant health issues I had a couple of years ago.

So, without knowing your particular situation, I will say I appreciate your attitude, and your post is a nice reminder. These days, my physical condition means my scars get stares if I go swimming, and I have trouble swallowing certain foods. But I'm alive, and I'm happy. Can't beat that.

 

Very good post. God bless you, sir.