Tithing - Gross, Net, Or Leftover

[Calm]

"The celestial law requires one-tenth part of all a man's substance which he possesses at the time he comes into the church (See D&C 119:1), and one-tenth part of his annual increase ever after(See D&C 119:4). IF IT REQUIRES ALL MAN CAN EARN TO SUPPORT HIMSELF AND HIS FAMILY, HE IS NOT TITHED AT ALL. The celestial law does not take the mother's and children's bread, neither ought else which they really need for their comfort. The poor that have not of this world's good to spare, but serve and honor God according to the best of their abilities in every other way, shall have a celestial crown in the Eternal Kingdom of our Father." (The Millenial Star, 1847. Orson Hyde, editor)

So is paying tithe on leftover a viable option if one feels this is their answer as they study out and through prayer?

Or do you feel Bro. Hyde is off base and it really is a debate between net and gross?

If the Church is willing and able to step in and provide the mother and children's bread, etc. than that is not a needed option in the choice of how to tithe.

Now if the Church or rather the Church's rep does not provide enough and they would have to go without necessities (and I don't mean cable and Internet access or McDonald's as I know one person considered it), but basic food and clothing and shelter along with basic transportation and phone and any required health necessities (I may be forgetting something else, but I think I've conveyed the category), then I think at that point a person has the right to take it up solely with God and tell the Bishop or whomever that they will pay tithing with anything left over after the mortgage and food, etc. and that it is a full tithe for them at this point in their life. And then if the bishop refuses to give a temple recommend, he will be held accountable...and at least they will have only at max 5 more years to have to deal with him.

Edited July 18, 2013 by calmoriah

[DBMormon]

If the Church is willing and able to step in and provide the mother and children's bread, etc. than that is not a needed option in the choice of how to tithe.

Now if the Church or rather the Church's rep does not provide enough and they would have to go without necessities (and I don't mean cable and Internet access or McDonald's as I know one person considered it), but basic food and clothing and shelter along with basic transportation and phone and any required health necessities (I may be forgetting something else, but I think I've conveyed the category), then I think at that point a person has the right to take it up solely with God and tell the Bishop or whomever that they will pay tithing with anything left over after the mortgage and food, etc. and that it is a full tithe for them at this point in their life. And then if the bishop refuses to give a temple recommend, he will be held accountable...and at least they will have only at max 5 more years to have to deal with him.

I like that Cal.

[Tacenda]

I like that Cal.

Me two. OOPS, I mean "too". Or that makes two of us. Edited July 18, 2013 by Tacenda

[Calm]

The way I was taught was that our loyalty is to be to God first, then to our families and then to our Church and then the greater community, eventually including our nation and the world.

I don't owe the Church obedience if that means I must sacrifice my family. I owe God that obedience...but only if he were to require it of me and I'm not going to take any church leader's word for that, I will go directly to God for that level of decision.

[DBMormon]

The way I was taught was that our loyalty is to be to God first, then to our families and then to our Church and then the greater community, eventually including our nation and the world.

I don't owe the Church obedience if that means I must sacrifice my family. I owe God that obedience...but only if he were to require it of me and I'm not going to take any church leader's word for that, I will go directly to God for that level of decision.

I await the day when most members see the gospel that clearly.

[canard78]

The way I was taught was that our loyalty is to be to God first, then to our families and then to our Church and then the greater community, eventually including our nation and the world.

I don't owe the Church obedience if that means I must sacrifice my family. I owe God that obedience...but only if he were to require it of me and I'm not going to take any church leader's word for that, I will go directly to God for that level of decision.

Cap doffed ma'am.

[Alan]

One thing I do not agree with is the notion that if you cannot afford tithing and food for your family, you pay tithing. This concept has been spoken in general conference and in Ensign articles over the years.

The scriptures say that he who does not meet his obligations to his family is worse than an infidel. Therefore, I believe this counsel to be in error.

On the wider issue, I believe tithing is linked very firmly with our responsibility to exercise stewardship over all we have at our disposal. Some people seen to believe, and certainly behave as if, as long as they pay their 10% they can do whatever they like with the rest. This is not true.

The "leftover" concept of tithing is ok and is certainly scriptural in my view, but only really works properly when operated alongside proper stewardship. Appropriate stewardship ensures the "leftover" amount is the highest it can be.

[canard78]

One thing I do not agree with is the notion that if you cannot afford tithing and food for your family, you pay tithing. This concept has been spoken in general conference and in Ensign articles over the years.

The scriptures say that he who does not meet his obligations to his family is worse than an infidel. Therefore, I believe this counsel to be in error.

On the wider issue, I believe tithing is linked very firmly with our responsibility to exercise stewardship over all we have at our disposal. Some people seen to believe, and certainly behave as if, as long as they pay their 10% they can do whatever they like with the rest. This is not true.

The "leftover" concept of tithing is ok and is certainly scriptural in my view, but only really works properly when operated alongside proper stewardship. Appropriate stewardship ensures the "leftover" amount is the highest it can be.

For those who work on a "leftover" principle I suppose being proactive is key. If you passively wait until the end of the month and then give 10% then there's a good chance there will be nothing. At least the way I spend money! No matter how much my salary increases I always seem to finish the month on 0.

I suppose the principle of paying for the essentials of life and tithe on the rest fits. But then the 1970 letter gives the individual the final call.

On the other hand, I was reading an old story of David O. McCkay as a kid helping with the harvest. Every 10th load would go to the bishops storehouse and even taken from the best field. His father could have easily pointed out he was running a business and therefore needed to factor in the cost of seeds/hired labour etc and factored down to every 14th load or so.

In the end it's a personal choice. If Net doesn't feel right, pay on gross. Of gross doesn't feel right, pay on surplus. If given with an honest heart and a willing sacrifice it probably doesn't matter how it's calculated.

But I agree that the vast majority of the stories and talks in the last 100 years make no mention of "leftover" as an option.

[DBMormon]

One thing I do not agree with is the notion that if you cannot afford tithing and food for your family, you pay tithing. This concept has been spoken in general conference and in Ensign articles over the years.

The scriptures say that he who does not meet his obligations to his family is worse than an infidel. Therefore, I believe this counsel to be in error.

On the wider issue, I believe tithing is linked very firmly with our responsibility to exercise stewardship over all we have at our disposal. Some people seen to believe, and certainly behave as if, as long as they pay their 10% they can do whatever they like with the rest. This is not true.

The "leftover" concept of tithing is ok and is certainly scriptural in my view, but only really works properly when operated alongside proper stewardship. Appropriate stewardship ensures the "leftover" amount is the highest it can be.

Alan,

I would inject here that one who pays tithing first, and then has nothing left to eat with, will always have access to the necessaties through the Church Storehouses. So if we're realistic, no tithe payer will ever go hungry.

While I'll be the first to give a member the flexibility to pray and receive an answer on their definiton of tithing, and whether they pay first or at the end, I would not interject a temporal answer on why one should do it one way over another, but rather encourage them to receive a spiritual reason. I think all three definitions are options, but the answer should come from God, as any time I am left to my own reasoning, I will always choose to do less then god asks of me. But with his Grace, I am enabled to do more then I can on my own.

Edited July 19, 2013 by DBMormon

[thatjimguy]

The thing is about LDS tithing that I have noticed, is that mainstream Christians just give. Although they just give different amounts, there is not a guide other than "Give everything" (as in Matthew). I am thinking the reason for this is much like to keep the bar so high that everyone is humble, because no man can really reach it. In LDS however, we have that 10%...and now we can use it to judge each other. Isn't that how these arguments usually end up to some degree?

[Calm]

The thing is about LDS tithing that I have noticed, is that mainstream Christians just give. Although they just give different amounts, there is not a guide other than "Give everything" (as in Matthew). I am thinking the reason for this is much like to keep the bar so high that everyone is humble, because no man can really reach it. In LDS however, we have that 10%...and now we can use it to judge each other. Isn't that how these arguments usually end up to some degree?

I don't have a clue whether or not anyone else in the Church pays tithing, so how can I judge them? Plus we aren't limited to giving only tithing, we can give as much as we want in other ways.

[Tacenda]

I don't have a clue whether or not anyone else in the Church pays tithing, so how can I judge them? Plus we aren't limited to giving only tithing, we can give as much as we want in other ways.

Maybe if they don't carry a current TR because of it.

[Kenngo1969]

Maybe if they don't carry a current TR because of it.

Does that come up in casual conversation amongst rank-and-file Ward members where you are? If so, I must say you live in a very unique Ward. The only reason I know anyone's Temple Recommend status is because its my responsibility to arrange renewal appointments for the Bishop, and that subject rarely comes up even in serious conversations in Bishopric meeting, let alone in casual conversation amongst the rank-and-file. Other than that, I don't know anyone's Temple Recommend status but mine, let alone their status as a Tithe payer.

[Tacenda]

Does that come up in casual conversation amongst rank-and-file Ward members where you are? If so, I must say you live in a very unique Ward. The only reason I know anyone's Temple Recommend status is because its my responsibility to arrange renewal appointments for the Bishop, and that subject rarely comes up even in serious conversations in Bishopric meeting, let alone in casual conversation amongst the rank-and-file. Other than that, I don't know anyone's Temple Recommend status but mine, let alone their status as a Tithe payer.

Friends and family mostly. But not often, so you're right.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

We do teach this openly.

Very much so and each year we declare to the Bishop, we "all" know the answer.

[Calm]

Maybe if they don't carry a current TR because of it.

I don't go around asking to see people's TR.

[Mark Beesley]

I don't go around asking to see people's TR.

You live a boring life. You probably don't ask people to show you their underwear either. How drab!

[Tacenda]

I don't go around asking to see people's TR.

I don't either, but somehow it gets out sometime, through that ugly thing called gossip. Sorry I even brought it up. But, my old bishop had a couple in my ward give a talk in Sacrament about their testimony of tithing and that they pay it, where before they hadn't, I assume they didn't have a TR before that. Though if I don't get a reccommend, it might be because my husband keeps saying he's not paying like he use to.

[thesometimesaint]

I think that if we use the TR as an instrument to judge the righteousness of others we are have much to repent of.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

I don't go around asking to see people's TR.

But you are missing so much. I believe only a Bishop, Stake President or Temple desk worker can ask to see someone's.

[thatjimguy]

I think that if we use the TR as an instrument to judge the righteousness of others we are have much to repent of.

but the very idea of the TR does exactly that. If you have one, you are more righteous than one without. That's by default!

[cdowis]

Gross -- reads scriptures every day, keeps a journal

Net -- drinks Coke/ Pepsi

Leftover -- Drops spare change in the tithing envelope.

Edited July 27, 2013 by cdowis

[thesometimesaint]

but the very idea of the TR does exactly that. If you have one, you are more righteous than one without. That's by default!

Nope.

See Zoromites

[thatjimguy]

Nope.

See Zoromites

Ok I looked it up. What part of it has any to do with the idea that people that have a TR are considered better people automatically? (In our society I mean by the way)

[canard78]

Gross -- reads scriptures every day, keeps a journal

Net -- drinks Coke/ Pepsi

Leftover -- Drops spare change in the tithing envelope.

Lol.

Indeed...

(Tongue bitten).