Tithing - Gross, Net, Or Leftover

[mbh26]

If one practices a principle, even a bit reluctantly, they at least have a better chance of catching the vision.  This goes for things other than tithing also.

 

And if you catch the vision, you should be happier in the moment than you are serving oneself only?  

 

If you're not happy while obeying the principle than that means you haven't caught the vision, right?  

Edited April 17, 2015 by mbh26

[ERayR]

And if you catch the vision, you should be happier in the moment than you are serving oneself only?  

 

If you're not happy while obeying the principle than that means you haven't caught the vision, right?  

 

That should be the results but there is lots of difference in people so I won't presume to speak for everybody.

[mbh26]

That should be the results but there is lots of difference in people so I won't presume to speak for everybody.

 

But if the person isn't happy right now, it's his own fault, right?  

Edited April 17, 2015 by mbh26

[The Nehor]

But if the person isn't happy right now, it's his own fault, right?  

 

By that standard any time Jesus was sad he must have done something wrong.

 

Sorrow is part of life. Our hymns call it a vale of tears, other places call it lonely and dreary. These are accurate descriptions. However if you do not find joy in the gospel and are living it I would make it a matter of prayer and possibly fasting to find out why.

 

In my experience I have found a few general categories of people who are unhappy but are at least outwardly faithful:

 

1. Those who expect nothing from living the gospel. They do it but they do not have any real faith in it. In last General Conference these are those who dance but do not hear the music.
2. Martyr complex people. These usually suffered some kind of major setback in life or feel they have not achieved much and are angry with God and obey the gospel almost out of spite proving their life will not get better by doing so as if they can hold it over God. They wallow in self-pity and wonder why so many others are happier while simultaneously envying them and having a superiority complex over them. These people are actively choosing misery because it is comfortable and predictable (been here myself) and shrink away from happiness.
3. Those who expect the gospel to smooth the road completely. They are generally good until things go wrong and then spend forever asking God "Why" instead of moving past it.
4. And of course there are times where sorrow is just something we endure. For the faithful who seek happiness this is usually temporary and even bittersweet as God stands with them in their afflictions.

[CCRW]

so its only the fault of 3 out of 4 there mbh26

[mbh26]

By that standard any time Jesus was sad he must have done something wrong.

 

Is there any reason that an individual is justified in being unhappy?  It did say Jesus wept when John the Baptist was killed.  It said he was sad.  Does that mean He was unhappy?  

 

 

[The Nehor]

 

Is there any reason that an individual is justified in being unhappy?  It did say Jesus wept when John the Baptist was killed.  It said he was sad.  Does that mean He was unhappy?  

 

Perpetually unhappy? No.

 

Situationally unhappy? Sure.

[DBMormon]

They actually have more then three options including not paying at all but without the Lord's approval I would not consider any of them valid. The gospel is not a buffet. While everyone's path is different the Lord sets that path and not our whims or even our consciences.

true... for instance this quote 

 

"The celestial law requires one-tenth part of all a man's substance which he possesses at the time he comes into the church (See D&C 119:1), and one-tenth part of his annual increase ever after(See D&C 119:4). IF IT REQUIRES ALL MAN CAN EARN TO SUPPORT HIMSELF AND HIS FAMILY, HE IS NOT TITHED AT ALL. The celestial law does not take the mother's and children's bread, neither ought else which they really need for their comfort. The poor that have not of this world's good to spare, but serve and honor God according to the best of their abilities in every other way, shall have a celestial crown in the Eternal Kingdom of our Father." (The Millenial Star, 1847. Orson Hyde, editor)

 

[DBMormon]

I don't think the Church is obligated to inform people of a definition of tithing that it has never promulgated in the first place. In effect, what you are calling for is a direct endorsement for your own definition. That is what it will amount to, because if people get the understanding that the Church is telling them they don't have to pay on anything other than what is left over after they've paid for all they need and want, a good many will hasten to embrace that, knowing that it will result in them paying little to nothing in tithing.

 

Edited to add:

 

And the principle of sacrifice that underpins the law of tithing will go for naught.

I agree Scott.  There is weakness in both sides.  If we teach them the ball is in their court many will choose the easiest option rather than the divinely inspired one (though they may and can be one in the same).  If instead we suggest the choice has been made for them as LDS culture seems to do on this issue people are left without a chance to stand on their own two feet and receive personal revelation as the Doctrine on tithing suggests they do and rather feel compelled in all things.  So yes both have flaws.  Personally I would rather the onus be on the member because that is where the growth is.  I personally spent weeks studying the issue and pondering it and arrived at surplus but to each their own as I don't expect my answer to be the same for everyone.  nor do I feel the need to shame anyone who chooses different than I

Edited April 17, 2015 by DBMormon

[DBMormon]

Maybe DB has more faith in the saints than you. I'd rather set correct principles and let them govern themselves. After all, the Lord doesn't need the tithing money. He needs our faith.

 

I'm happy that the church is leaving the principle to the saints to decide. I would be worried though if, as you suggest, the church intentionally refused to speak on the acceptability of one form of tithing because of a belief that the saints would try to use that system in order to pay less. To me, that would demonstrate that church leaders do not really believe the saints will pay tithing for the right reasons.

or a lack of faith that the kingdom could move forward if more responsibility was on the member to be led by God as if doing so will stop God from moving his work where it must go.

[DBMormon]

If the revelation is from God, then won't the personal revelation of  interpretation of "income as increase" be the same for everyone?   Of course we could surely think that everyone  else's revelation interpretation of gross is wrong and ours of whatever is leftover from spending for all necessities is right.    But IME, those who actually pay 10% of gross on all of their increase because they choose to, having confirmed that interpretation with God, don't generally pay less thereafter.

is everyone's interpretation of the WOW the same?  is everyone's interpretation of FHE the same?  Moroni 7 lays out the way to judge and each is empowered to judge differently without one being wrong and one right.  The gospel begins as do's and don'ts but is meant to help us progress to a point that we rely on the holy ghost rather than than set rules.

[DBMormon]

The Church has defined "increase" as meaning "income," and after that, left it up to the individual.

 

How one interprets "income" to mean "whatever is left over after I've bought and paid for everything I need and want" is a mystery to me.

http://thoughtsonthingsandstuff.com/lds-tithing-in-a-word/

 

How does Websters 1828 dictionary define “interest” as it related to someones properties or income? If you examine the entry for interest, you see several definitions. What would seem to be the most relevant definition is:

However, the term “advantage” is not usual to the modern vernacular in this context and so looking up the meaning of that term provides the following helpful definitions:

“6. Any surplus advantage”

(“American Dictionary of the English Language” entry on “Interest”, Noah Webster, 1828)

 

“2. Benefit; gain; profit…

7. Interest; increase; overplus”

(“American Dictionary of the English Language” entry on “Advantage”, Noah Webster, 1828)

 

First the word income can and has been used to mean Net. Gross, and surplus.  

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/surplus+income

http://www.bankruptcy-cambridge.com/what-exactly-is-surplus-income/

http://www.consumer-proposals.org/blog/what-is-surplus-income/

http://www.berghahnbooks.com/title.php?rowtag=OertzenPleasure

http://www.slideshare.net/DouglasHoyes/edited-step-bystep-guide-to-determining-surplus-income-ppt

 

also the Brethren understand increase to mean income.  That seems like a human definition and their not imposing that God gave them that understanding.  

 

And there is the Lord telling Joseph how Abraham paid which at least one interpretation of this is that Abraham paid tithe on the bounteous leftover he was had beyond that which he had need.

 

“Wherefore, Abram paid unto him tithes of all that he had, of all the riches which he possessed, which God had given him more than that which he had need.”

(JST Genesis 14:39, lds.org)

 

Edited April 17, 2015 by DBMormon

[DBMormon]

The Church has defined "increase" as meaning "income," and after that, left it up to the individual.

 

How one interprets "income" to mean "whatever is left over after I've bought and paid for everything I need and want" is a mystery to me.

also you missed the mark.  to imply need and want is an issue.  I nor anyone else defending surplus has said after one's wants.  I certainly wouldn't.  Surplus income to me is what is leftover after one's modest needs are met.  how do we define Modest needs.  That would be between the member and the Lord.  That is how I define it.  Please stick to what I and others have said and not what gives you the edge in a disagreement.

Edited April 17, 2015 by DBMormon

[CV75]

I think this is a good attitude to have in deciding how much one should tithe:

"[He] could see that, in a country where [a dollar was worth its] weight in gold, Abie Turay had paid one dollar as her tithing, one dollar to the missionary fund, and one dollar as a fast offering for those who, in her words, were ‘truly poor.'"

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2015/04/is-not-this-the-fast-that-i-have-chosen?lang=eng

[VideoGameJunkie]

When paying tithing, don't forget to donate to fast offering and or humanitarian aid. Those donations help people so much. There are even categories on a tithing slip for ward missionary and general missionary.

[Robert F. Smith]

The Church has defined "increase" as meaning "income," and after that, left it up to the individual.

 

How one interprets "income" to mean "whatever is left over after I've bought and paid for everything I need and want" is a mystery to me.

One might want to ask a farmer, who may or may not make a profit for a given year, after all expenses are added up (equipment purchase, rental, and upkeep, seed, fertilizer, water, hired help, etc.).  For him, the only increase is the net, after real expenses, if he even has a net. Indeed, many a farmer in America had to leave farming after a given number of years in the red.  The tragedy there is that some of the best arable land in the world is now being used for housing tracts.

 

Often farm land is worth more in sales to developers (as is the case in Utah County now) than it is in value from farming.  Only agribusiness can afford the expenses these days, which is the way the LDS Church handles its vast farm holdings.

[The Nehor]

or a lack of faith that the kingdom could move forward if more responsibility was on the member to be led by God as if doing so will stop God from moving his work where it must go.

Of course for those like myself who believe God is in charge I think this is more a realization that most members cannot or will not govern themselves. Hopefully after we sift out the dead weight we can move on.

[CCRW]

When paying tithing, don't forget to donate to fast offering and or humanitarian aid. Those donations help people so much. There are even categories on a tithing slip for ward missionary and general missionary.

Yes, with some small writing at the bottom noting that no matter what you check, the church will use it how it sees fit.

[The Nehor]

Yes, with some small writing at the bottom noting that no matter what you check, the church will use it how it sees fit.

Necessary legalese to keep it as a charity. If you maintain control over how charitable offerings even in such a small way It could be contested that such a donation is not tax-exempt.

Also necessary for an emergency situation. If there is a large-scale disaster shifting funds from tithing or Missionary fund or whatever may be needed. What happens when we shut down full-time Missionary work towards the end? Do we lock that money down forever?

This is a silly and stupid nitpick from our critics who, as always, assume dishonesty.

[CCRW]

Necessary legalese to keep it as a charity. If you maintain control over how charitable offerings even in such a small way It could be contested that such a donation is not tax-exempt.

Also necessary for an emergency situation. If there is a large-scale disaster shifting funds from tithing or Missionary fund or whatever may be needed. What happens when we shut down full-time Missionary work towards the end? Do we lock that money down forever?

 

This is a silly and stupid nitpick from our critics who, as always, assume dishonesty.

 

The corp is a big issue with me ... just another of those anger issues

[The Nehor]

The corp is a big issue with me ... just another of those anger issues

 

I know. As long as our church leaders live better then indigent Somali peasants and our churches are more then dilapidated barns it is clear we do not actually care about others and are all about sweet sweet profits.

[ERayR]

The corp is a big issue with me ... just another of those anger issues

 

Chalk it up for the need for legal protection.

[CCRW]

the note on the slip is not the issue ... but no need to disrupt more

[ERayR]

the note on the slip is not the issue ... but no need to disrupt more

 

I was talking about the need for the corp.

[CCRW]

I know. As long as our church leaders live better then indigent Somali peasants and our churches are more then dilapidated barns

not an issue

it is clear we do not actually care about others and are all about sweet sweet profits.

getting warmer