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Tithing - Gross, Net, Or Leftover

DBMormon

By DBMormon
in General Discussions

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gree0232 Enthusiast

gree0232

Posted
Posted

Both, it is an assumption that is taught without any other view taught. No one has ever mentioned praying about what a full tithe is. Tithing is 10% of gross, no ifs ands or buts, is taught exclusively

Having recently run into this, I will say openly, unfortunately, that there is a lot of disinformation in this fairly recent claim.

#1 - Tithing is taught as part of both gospel doctrine and gospel principles. I would find it extraordinarily odd that the lessons that are part of this manual were simply skipped.

#2 - Much of the basis of this claim comes from this, partial quote:

"First Presidency (Joseph Fielding Smith, Harold B. Lee, N. Eldon Tanner), letter of 19 March 1970. To Presidents of Stakes, Bishops of Wards, and Presidents of Missions.

Dear Brethren:

Inquiries are received at the office of the First

Presidency from time to time from officers and members of the Church asking for information as to what is considered a proper tithe.

For your guidance in this matter, please be advised that we have uniformly replied that the simplest statement we know of is the statement of the Lord himself, namely, that the members of the Church should pay “one-tenth of all their interest annually,” which is understood to mean income. No one is justified in making any other statement than this.

We feel that every member of the Church is entitled to make his own decision as to what he thinks he owes the Lord and to make payment accordingly .

http://emp.byui.edu/marrottr/TithingPayOnWhat.pdf

Unfortunately for those who quote this, as is often the case when connivence arises an easy excuse, Smith offers, in the same text, ample clarification:

From what is written we discover that the paying of the tithe is a simple matter. Even the weakest among us know what the tenth part of a dollar is.

Tithing is a matter of conscience. Does your conscience tell you that you should deduct all of your expenses before tithing? Does it tell you that you do not have to pay on money that was withheld and which you never did see? If so, would you feel that you had to pay if it did come into your hands?

The Lord said something about rewards, and he who gives a skimp measure will receive likewise; he who gives a measure full and running over will receive a measure of like proportions....

http://emp.byui.edu/marrottr/TithingPayOnWhat.pdf

Another false statement, when examined in context is D&C 119.

4 And after that, those who have thus been atithed shall pay one-tenth of all their interest annually; and this shall be a standing law unto them forever, for my holy priesthood, saith the Lord.

5 Verily I say unto you, it shall come to pass that all those who gather unto the land of aZion shall be tithed of their surplus properties, and shall observe this law, or they shall not be found worthy to abide among you.

This is a clear instruction on tithing. The second part is an equally clear warning to the greedy among us - those who not only fail to pay a full tithe, but who wish to dwell before the Lord as an 'honest' man by keeping ALL that is clearly surplus and refusing even to tithe on that are to be caste out.

Finally, we should also bear in mind that this teaching does not originate from within the church, it comes from those who have deliberately misquoted our doctrine and teachings in an attempt to undermine them.

http://www.mrm.org/tithing

http://www.mormoncurtain.com/topic_tithing_section1.html

You follow the 'teaching' of the 'ex-mormon' community and those who doctrinally hate us at your own peril. None of the church's teaching on tithing are hidden in the slightest:

http://www.lds.org/topics/tithing?lang=eng

We must also bear in mind that we must pay a full tithe to have a temple recommend, which, again, that this is not taught in the stake or ward strikes me as extremely odd. Those who chose to adapt this, IMHO, are simply doing so looking for an excuse to withhold tithing money. In reality, those who do will simply be choosing love of money over love of the Lord.

Those who openly ignore what is taught, equally openly, will face the consequences. Those who openly advocate 'false teaching' by misinterpreting the scripture will face another consequence altogether.

We all face the temptation of rationalization, and we all make our choice in the face of that temptation accordingly with appropriate warning in both directions.

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canard78 Grand Master

canard78

Posted
Posted

From what is written we discover that the paying of the tithe is a simple matter. Even the weakest among us know what the tenth part of a dollar is.

Tithing is a matter of conscience. Does your conscience tell you that you should deduct all of your expenses before tithing? Does it tell you that you do not have to pay on money that was withheld and which you never did see? If so, would you feel that you had to pay if it did come into your hands?

The Lord said something about rewards, and he who gives a skimp measure will receive likewise; he who gives a measure full and running over will receive a measure of like proportions....

http://emp.byui.edu/marrottr/TithingPayOnWhat.pdf

And if my conscience says "yes, after deductions I'll give one dollar in ten," this is not skimping.

He didn't say 'no' to one or the other. He only emphasised letting your conscience rule the decision, not your selfishness.

And is it significant that today's handbook leaves this second statement out but includes the first.

Another false statement, when examined in context is D&C 119.

4 And after that, those who have thus been atithed shall pay one-tenth of all their interest annually; and this shall be a standing law unto them forever, for my holy priesthood, saith the Lord.

5 Verily I say unto you, it shall come to pass that all those who gather unto the land of aZion shall be tithed of their surplus properties, and shall observe this law, or they shall not be found worthy to abide among you.

This is a clear instruction on tithing. The second part is an equally clear warning to the greedy among us - those who not only fail to pay a full tithe, but who wish to dwell before the Lord as an 'honest' man by keeping ALL that is clearly surplus and refusing even to tithe on that are to be caste out.

Finally, we should also bear in mind that this teaching does not originate from within the church, it comes from those who have deliberately misquoted our doctrine and teachings in an attempt to undermine them.

http://www.mrm.org/tithing

http://www.mormoncurtain.com/topic_tithing_section1.html

You follow the 'teaching' of the 'ex-mormon' community and those who doctrinally hate us at your own peril. None of the church's teaching on tithing are hidden in the slightest:

http://www.lds.org/topics/tithing?lang=eng

We must also bear in mind that we must pay a full tithe to have a temple recommend, which, again, that this is not taught in the stake or ward strikes me as extremely odd. Those who chose to adapt this, IMHO, are simply doing so looking for an excuse to withhold tithing money. In reality, those who do will simply be choosing love of money over love of the Lord.

Those who openly ignore what is taught, equally openly, will face the consequences. Those who openly advocate 'false teaching' by misinterpreting the scripture will face another consequence altogether.

We all face the temptation of rationalization, and we all make our choice in the face of that temptation accordingly with appropriate warning in both directions.

"Face the consequences..." It's this sort of fear inducing talk that is such a turn off. I pay tithing because I consider it a blessing to do so. In paying I am blessed with the attitude of letting go of materialism, selfishness, greed.

The 'volume' of blessings from tithing is not directly proportional to the % of our gross/net/whatever income, but in our ability to give willingly, unselfishly and generously. However we work out what our 10 is to give 1 from, it's the attitude that brings the blessing.

And I say that as someone who leans towards "gross" as "feeling" right, but recognising that even in the second statement by Smith, the conscience of the individual to do it without skimping is what matters most.

2
  • 1 year later...
ERayR Grand Master

ERayR

Posted
Posted

:beatdeadhorse: :beatdeadhorse: :beatdeadhorse: :beatdeadhorse:

 

Those who want will pay a generous tithe.  Those who don't won't.  All it takes is faith.

1
The Nehor Grand Master

The Nehor

Posted
Posted

Hey I revive threads on topics I want to talk about since I'm on stupid Limited profile and can't start my own new threads. Blame the mods.

 

What if I told you I am a mod? :vader:

mnn727 Grand Master

mnn727

Posted
Posted
My questions are

1.) Why don't we teach this openly in our three hour block as it seems most members had it defined for them as gross.

 

Every time its brought up in my ward its is always finally pointed out (after some discussion) that the Church leaves it between the person and God and no other answer is acceptable.

 

2.) what can we do to teach the official stance

 

Speak up during classes when its discussed.

mnn727 Grand Master

mnn727

Posted
Posted

 

Those who want will pay a generous tithe.  Those who don't won't.  All it takes is faith.

No it does not 'just take faith'. I am glad some people have tons of disposable income - not everyone does.

mnn727 Grand Master

mnn727

Posted
Posted (edited)

Both, it is an assumption that is taught without any other view taught. No one has ever mentioned praying about what a full tithe is. Tithing is 10% of gross, no ifs ands or buts, is taught exclusively

Then you need to copy the official Church stance and keep it handy for the next time(s) the discussion happens.

Edited by mnn727
mnn727 Grand Master

mnn727

Posted
Posted (edited)

Depends on how much blessings you want

I'd like to do unmentionable things to people who say this.

 

No it does not, Are you telling us that you can earn your blessings?

Edited by mnn727
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HappyJackWagon Grand Master

HappyJackWagon

Posted
Posted

 

DarkScythe, on 13 Jul 2013 - 2:14 PM, said:snapback.png

Depends on how much blessings you want

I'd like to do unmentionable things to people who say this.

 

No it does not, Are you telling us that you can earn your blessings?

 

Not "earn" blessings. "Purchase" blessings.

It sounds rather midieval.

1
Scott Lloyd Grand Master

Scott Lloyd

Posted
Posted

Every time its brought up in my ward its is always finally pointed out (after some discussion) that the Church leaves it between the person and God and no other answer is acceptable.

 

 

I'm good with this.

 

What I don't like is when people embrace or fashion a quirky and stingy definition of tithe paying and then blame the Church leaders for not telling everyone else they can use said quirky and stingy definition.

 

That, in effect, is what happened in this thread.

3
DBMormon Grand Master

DBMormon

Posted
  • Author
Posted

since the brethren have never officially stated it is Net or Gross or surplus and they also have not officially crossed one of those off what are the possible options then all three are valid definitions and is between the member and the Lord especially since Joseph original definiton in 1830 ish used words that in the dictionary of his day that indicated surplus as a valid interpretation.  Also the Abraham JST Gen 14 scripture indicates Abraham may have paid on surplus

Scott Lloyd Grand Master

Scott Lloyd

Posted
Posted

since the brethren have never officially stated it is Net or Gross or surplus and they also have not officially crossed one of those off what are the possible options then all three are valid definitions and is between the member and the Lord especially since Joseph original definiton in 1830 ish used words that in the dictionary of his day that indicated surplus as a valid interpretation.  Also the Abraham JST Gen 14 scripture indicates Abraham may have paid on surplus

But you would love it if they officially crossed out every definition but yours. Right?

Buckeye Grand Master

Buckeye

Posted
Posted

But you would love it if they officially crossed out every definition but yours. Right?

 

DB seems to be happy letting members decide. If anyone is trying to cross of possible definitions, it's you.

1
The Nehor Grand Master

The Nehor

Posted
Posted

No it does not 'just take faith'. I am glad some people have tons of disposable income - not everyone does.

You would if you paid more tithing. /sarcasm

Not "earn" blessings. "Purchase" blessings.

It sounds rather midieval.

Purchase implies that it is a fair exchange of value. In my experience it is not. If you are paying for the blessings you are probably doing it wrong. The best reason is to be a patriot of the kingdom of God and want it to roll forth.

HappyJackWagon Grand Master

HappyJackWagon

Posted
Posted

You would if you paid more tithing. /sarcasm

Purchase implies that it is a fair exchange of value. In my experience it is not. If you are paying for the blessings you are probably doing it wrong. The best reason is to be a patriot of the kingdom of God and want it to roll forth.

Would you prefer a barter system of tithing for blessings as opposed to purchase? And does that really make it any better?

pogi Grand Master

pogi

Posted
Posted (edited)

Orson Hyde Leftover - statement from the Apostle Orson Hyde in 1847.

"The celestial law requires one-tenth part of all a man's substance which he possesses at the time he comes into the church (See D&C 119:1), and one-tenth part of his annual increase ever after(See D&C 119:4). IF IT REQUIRES ALL MAN CAN EARN TO SUPPORT HIMSELF AND HIS FAMILY, HE IS NOT TITHED AT ALL. The celestial law does not take the mother's and children's bread, neither ought else which they really need for their comfort. The poor that have not of this world's good to spare, but serve and honor God according to the best of their abilities in every other way, shall have a celestial crown in the Eternal Kingdom of our Father." (The Millenial Star, 1847. Orson Hyde, editor)

 

 

I have not read all of this thread yet to see if this was addressed, but I can't figure out how you interpret Orson Hyde's quote to mean that we should only pay tithing on "leftover".   Orson Hyde talked about giving a tenth of "all a man's substance which he possesses" at the time of baptism, and it was common for members to pay tithe with their substance of seed, crop, chickens, etc.  "Increase" was in reference to all possessions and not just leftover moneys after living expenses.  I have never heard of a single journal account of tithing being paid from "leftovers".  

 

The part you caps locked and highlighted certainly was not in reference to gross or net tithing, but was in reference to paying "all man can earn", which is 100% not 10% and is therefore not a tithing. 

Edited by pogi
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The Nehor Grand Master

The Nehor

Posted
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Posted

Would you prefer a barter system of tithing for blessings as opposed to purchase? And does that really make it any better?

I would prefer a system where we give because we love God.

I have tried bartering with God. It does not work. I have tried buying God off. Did not work. I have tried earning things from God. Still no go. I have decided to just take the punches and love God regardless.

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ERayR Grand Master

ERayR

Posted
Posted

No it does not 'just take faith'. I am glad some people have tons of disposable income - not everyone does.

 

I don't.  SS doesn't stretch too far and we have paid for two funerals in the last nine months.

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