Tithing - Gross, Net, Or Leftover

[SeekingUnderstanding]

Sure it could. The operations may be a lot closer to the original intent expressed in section 119 - to pay for the expenses of the FP - than for all the other programs added over the years - BYU, chapel construction/maintenance, disaster relief, missionary expenses, etc - but the church would still "operate."

 

Basing the definition of tithing on whether it would support all the church programs we enjoy places the cart before the horse.

 

Perhaps, but I view tithing more as memberships dues than any type of charity. Maybe if I paid according to section 119, I'd view it differently.

[SeekingUnderstanding]

Nope I pay when I collect Social Security.

 

Same as above.  I pay when I collect Social Security.

 

I don't know what that means either.  When you are self employed all is not interest/increase.  If I grow potatoes I have a lot of expenses involved in growing them.

Most people that pay on gross, pay tithing before the Social Security Tax is deducted from their paycheck. The self employed, who pay twice the tax as the rest of us, would end up paying more.

[ERayR]

Most people that pay on gross, pay tithing before the Social Security Tax is deducted from their paycheck. The self employed, who pay twice the tax as the rest of us, would end up paying more.

 

And if they are comfortable with that then so be it.

[SeekingUnderstanding]

I don't think the Church is obligated to inform people of a definition of tithing that it has never promulgated in the first place.

 

So if we pulled 10 non-mormons off the street and let them read section 119, how many of them would come up with the way we pay tithing today? If we just showed them vs 3-4 in a multiple choice test with an 1828 dictionary, how many would define interest as surplus vs interest as income? It seems clear to me that the original intent of section 119 was to tithe on your increase in wealth (i.e. if you started the year with 100 sheep and ended with 200, you would tithing would be 10 sheep). This matches webster's 1828 dictionary, where using interest as income does not. To say that a surplus was never promulgated seems disingenuous. 

Edited April 16, 2015 by SeekingUnderstanding

[ERayR]

So if we pulled 10 non-mormons off the street and let them read section 119, how many of them would come up with the way we pay tithing today? If we just showed them vs 3-4 in a multiple choice test with an 1828 dictionary, how many would define interest as surplus vs interest as income? It seems clear to me that the original intent of section 119 was to tithe on your increase in wealth (i.e. if you started the year with 100 sheep and ended with 200, you would tithing would be 10 sheep). This matches webster's 1828 dictionary, where using interest as income does not. To say that a surplus was never promulgated seems disingenuous. 

 

I have no argument with your math but would you please show me where interest has ever meant surplus.  Thanks in advance.

[mnn727]

Yes, the number of potential tithing issues are unlimited. Do you tithe on increases to your 401 due to market changes? If so, do you expect a credit back from the church if the market goes down over a year?  What about money from loans? If you take a $100,000 mortgage for a home, do you pay tithing on that? I've never heard of anyone doing so, but I know members who tithed on student loans they received - which strikes me as just as illogical.

You have no gain or loss until you actually sell the stock in your 401k (or what ever else you invest in)

 

In the previous example, if you own your own business you pay on Net income not on gross income, thus paying for Social Security to me is foolish, especially since you're paying both shares (employers and employee's side).

[ERayR]

Yes, the number of potential tithing issues are unlimited. Do you tithe on increases to your 401 due to market changes? If so, do you expect a credit back from the church if the market goes down over a year?  What about money from loans? If you take a $100,000 mortgage for a home, do you pay tithing on that? I've never heard of anyone doing so, but I know members who tithed on student loans they received - which strikes me as just as illogical.

 

How can you interpret a loan as increase or income?  It is not yours.  It must be repaid. from money you earn which would be increase/income.

[SeekingUnderstanding]

I have no argument with your math but would you please show me where interest has ever meant surplus.  Thanks in advance.

 

The definition that looks most relevant to me from Webster's 1828 definition of interest was "any surplus advantage." Advantage is defined as "benefit, gain profit." So interest would be surplus "benefit, gain, or profit."

[Buckeye]

How can you interpret a loan as increase or income?  It is not yours.  It must be repaid. from money you earn which would be increase/income.

 

I don't interpret it that way, but I've seen others who do. Basically, it's the theory expressed by JLHPROF that one should pay tithing on any money that comes into their hands.

[Gray]

I don't interpret it that way, but I've seen others who do. Basically, it's the theory expressed by JLHPROF that one should pay tithing on any money that comes into their hands.

 

I knew someone who paid on student loans. 

[ERayR]

The definition that looks most relevant to me from Webster's 1828 definition of interest was "any surplus advantage." Advantage is defined as "benefit, gain profit." So interest would be surplus "benefit, gain, or profit."

 

This definition fits much better.  It takes a bit of contriving to use that definition in this context. IMO

 

4. Premium paid for the use of money; the profit per cent derived from money lent, or property used by another person, or from debts remaining unpaid. Commercial states have a legal rate of interest. Debts on book bear an interest after the expiration of the credit. Courts allow interest in many cases where it is not stipulated. A higher rate of interest than that which the law allows, is called usury.

Simple interest is that which arises from the principal sum only.

Compound interest is that which arises from the principal with the interest added; interest on interest.

[toon]

This isn't intended to be flippant, but really, who cares?

 

Seems like the Church has been pretty consistent, at least recently, when explaining that what 10% of one's interest means is up to the individual.  I get that there have been those who have taught or espoused something else (gross, net, etc.), but the current message and policy is pretty clear.

 

I find it interesting in light of complaints about how much the Church dictates and controls members' lives that there are also complaints here where the Church is essentially saying, "it's up to you."

[Scott Lloyd]

This isn't intended to be flippant, but really, who cares?

 

Seems like the Church has been pretty consistent, at least recently, when explaining that what 10% of one's interest means is up to the individual.  I get that there have been those who have taught or espoused something else (gross, net, etc.), but the current message and policy is pretty clear.

 

I find it interesting in light of complaints about how much the Church dictates and controls members' lives that there are also complaints here where the Church is essentially saying, "it's up to you."

The Church has defined "increase" as meaning "income," and after that, left it up to the individual.

 

How one interprets "income" to mean "whatever is left over after I've bought and paid for everything I need and want" is a mystery to me.

[The Nehor]

This isn't intended to be flippant, but really, who cares?

 

Seems like the Church has been pretty consistent, at least recently, when explaining that what 10% of one's interest means is up to the individual.  I get that there have been those who have taught or espoused something else (gross, net, etc.), but the current message and policy is pretty clear.

 

I find it interesting in light of complaints about how much the Church dictates and controls members' lives that there are also complaints here where the Church is essentially saying, "it's up to you."

Many people want their method endorsed so they do not have to actually talk to God about the whole process. The Israelites under Moses are not the only ones who want the prophet to go up to talk to God and stay away from them. Revelation leads to endless trouble.

[hagoth7]

If the revelation is from God, then won't the personal revelation of  interpretation of "income as increase" be the same for everyone?...

No actually. I would be surprised if that were the case.

 

At least one who asked received a different answer. I don't expect everyone to receive that same answer.

Edited April 16, 2015 by hagoth7

[The Nehor]

If the revelation is from God, then won't the personal revelation of  interpretation of "income as increase" be the same for everyone?   Of course we could surely think that everyone  else's revelation interpretation of gross is wrong and ours of whatever is leftover from spending for all necessities is right.    But IME, those who actually pay 10% of gross on all of their increase because they choose to, having confirmed that interpretation with God, don't generally pay less thereafter.

Why would it be the same? Most commandments aren't. There is a general command to do member missionary work and most people have different ways of doing it. Same with temple work, keeping the sabbath, the Word of Wisdom, teaching your children, providing for your family, and even how we all pray.

[CCRW]

Why would it be the same? Most commandments aren't. There is a general command to do member missionary work and most people have different ways of doing it. Same with temple work, keeping the sabbath, the Word of Wisdom, teaching your children, providing for your family, and even how we all pray.

 

As in another recent thread on core verses fringe, I'm betting there is a inversely proportional relationship between how far one drifts towards the edges and how much one decides to pay.

[The Nehor]

As in another recent thread on core verses fringe, I'm betting there is a inversely proportional relationship between how far one drifts towards the edges and how much one decides to pay.

Probably, but as a recent General Conference talk said it is more important to hear the music and then you will dance correctly.

[mbh26]

Both, it is an assumption that is taught without any other view taught. No one has ever mentioned praying about what a full tithe is. Tithing is 10% of gross, no ifs ands or buts, is taught exclusively

 

I was taught in seminary that tithing had to be on the gross.  Granted that was 25 years ago.  

[mbh26]

I think the attitude is what matters most. If one gives wholeheartedly and sincerely of his net, he will receive more than if he gives with any sense of reluctance, no matter how small, of his gross. And I don't see why the Lord would send less blessings to someone who paid net because they truly believed that was what the Lord required and desired of him/her than he would if someone felt the same way about gross.

We pay gross not because we think there is any significant difference between either since the Lord hasn't indicated to either myself or my husband his preference for us, but simply because we can, we think it a great and wonderful work and we take joy in being able to do so. I don't believe it makes one whit of difference in blessings besides being able to experience that.

 

Why do we talk about "blessings" when we talk about tithing.  I thought the only acceptable motivation for doing these things was out of gratitude for Christ's sacrifice and love of God.  Can you tell me exactly what those blessings might be?  What difference does it make in eternity if you pay tithing your entire life, or if you just pay it for a year, get right with God, and die?  

Edited April 16, 2015 by mbh26

[ERayR]

I was taught in seminary that tithing had to be on the gross.  Granted that was 25 years ago.  

 

Obviously false doctrine.

[ERayR]

Why do we talk about "blessings" when we talk about tithing.  I thought the only acceptable motivation for doing these things was out of gratitude for Christ's sacrifice and love of God.  Can you tell me exactly what those blessings might be?  What difference does it make in eternity if you pay tithing your entire life, or if you just pay it for a year, get right with God, and die?  

 

Because we are all in varying stages of perfection.

[The Nehor]

Why do we talk about "blessings" when we talk about tithing.  I thought the only acceptable motivation for doing these things was out of gratitude for Christ's sacrifice and love of God.  Can you tell me exactly what those blessings might be?  What difference does it make in eternity if you pay tithing your entire life, or if you just pay it for a year, get right with God, and die?

Because it is better to pay for the blessings rather then not to pay at all. The higher reason may be better but a lesser reason for obedience is better than none. I do not think fear of hellfire is a good reason to obey but it is usually better than nothing and can hopefully lead to better things.

[SeekingUnderstanding]

This definition fits much better.  It takes a bit of contriving to use that definition in this context. IMO

 

4. Premium paid for the use of money; the profit per cent derived from money lent, or property used by another person, or from debts remaining unpaid. Commercial states have a legal rate of interest. Debts on book bear an interest after the expiration of the credit. Courts allow interest in many cases where it is not stipulated. A higher rate of interest than that which the law allows, is called usury.

Simple interest is that which arises from the principal sum only.

Compound interest is that which arises from the principal with the interest added; interest on interest.

Re "It takes a bit of contriving" - I actually agree. However to take your definition and get income from it takes at least as much contriving. It is very poorly worded in the D&C (IMO of course).

[mbh26]

Because it is better to pay for the blessings rather then not to pay at all. The higher reason may be better but a lesser reason for obedience is better than none. I do not think fear of hellfire is a good reason to obey but it is usually better than nothing and can hopefully lead to better things.

 

Fair enough, but when they talk about the windows of heaven opening and a blessing being poured out upon the tithe payers, what exactly is that?  Is it just that they feel more spiritual should therefore be happier right now because of it?  What would you say to someone who did those things but felt that it made them less happy?  Is it his fault that he's not happier paying than he was not paying?