Tithing - Gross, Net, Or Leftover

[Tacenda]

Hogwash on getting financial blessings, for paying on gross. Utah is or was, ranked the 48th state in per capita earnings. Also, Utah has had, in the past, the highest bankruptcy numbers.

And I know of one family in particular who are faithful tithe payers, I know personally, that has again lost his job, and nothing in savings, due to the fact it was diminished in the first job loss.

Those SS lessons or teachers, need to watch their words carefully, because it makes those that are faithful, probably feel left out in the cold.

Edited July 14, 2013 by Tacenda

[Calm]

Also, Utah has had, in the past, the highest bankruptcy numbers.

I don't disagree about the hogwash...

However, it is problematic to compare states' bankruptcy numbers due to the different laws involved. Utah had laws that favoured bankruptcy and therefore got more of them. Those laws have now been changed and so the numbers are dropping.

[Tacenda]

Hogwash on getting financial blessings, for paying on gross. Utah is or was, ranked the 48th state in per capita earnings. Also, Utah has had, in the past, the highest bankruptcy numbers.

And I know of one family in particular who are faithful tithe payers, I know personally, that has again lost his job, and nothing in savings, due to the fact it was diminished in the first job loss.

Those SS lessons or teachers, need to watch their words carefully, because it makes those that are faithful, probably feel left out in the cold.

I don't disagree about the hogwash...

However, it is problematic to compare states' bankruptcy numbers due to the different laws involved. Utah had laws that favoured bankruptcy and therefore got more of them. Those laws have now been changed and so the numbers are dropping.

You mean anti Mormons can't use that anymore? Thanks mom!

[Calm]

You mean anti Mormons can't use that anymore?

It was one of those things they never should have....at least until they had figured out how to correct for the differences in the laws to come up with some valid comparison numbers.

(I think there are some perfectly valid criticisms critics have available to them, it is generally in my view a sign of laziness and/or malice when they insist on using invalid ones.)

Edited July 14, 2013 by calmoriah

[thesometimesaint]

What would you say 'net' means? After tax? Or after other costs? I'm not sure Talmage is making a clear-cut 'net' statement. He's simply saying that is your income is high you'll pay more (but not proportionally). Obviously if someone had no income for a year they'd pay nothing. 10% of 0 is the same as 100% of 0.

How my family works it is on net after taxes, then tithe on our tax return. For us it makes book keeping easier. But I don't insist that everyone do it my way.

[CV75]

Not in my ward or stake or the ensign or the sunday school manuals

Here's at last one Sunday School Manual, on line: http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?hideNav=1&locale=0&sourceId=53d09207f7c20110VgnVCM100000176f620a____&vgnextoid=32c41b08f338c010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD

"The First Presidency gave the following definition of tithing: “The simplest statement we know of is the statement of the Lord himself, namely, that the members of the Church should pay ‘one-tenth of all their interest annually,’ which is understood to mean income. No one is justified in making any other statement than this” (First Presidency letter, 19 Mar. 1970)."

Strength of youth: https://www.lds.org/manual/for-the-strength-of-youth-fulfilling-our-duty-to-god/tithes-and-offerings?lang=eng

"A tithe is one-tenth of your income."

Relief Society: http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?locale=0&sourceId=df29767978c20110VgnVCM100000176f620a____&vgnextoid=88021b08f338c010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD

Ensign/Conference: 1994: https://www.lds.org/general-conference/1994/04/tithing?lang=eng

1975: https://www.lds.org/new-era/1975/12/qa-questions-and-answers?lang=eng

Google shows tons more LDS teaching sources.

[Buzzard]

Over on another board that I frequent, ostenbibly having to do with BYU sports, but often wandering into the doctrinal question of the day, this is one of the most often discussed topics there is. And our collective minds have a hard time figuiring it out.

A centure ago, it was simpler. You had a hundred acres of potatoes, you gave the harvest of ten acres to the bishop. Now, should you tithe on:

-Your employers contribution to benefits such as health insurance, 401K, or tax offsets on prizes? What about non-monetary compensation like the TV I won as a door prize one year at the Christmas party? Heck, what about the cost of food and entertainment provided at the christmas party, or even the monthly company lunch?

-As others have mentioned, taxes can often exceed 50% when federal, state, and social security are taken into account. So you are donating 20%+ of your take home in some cases.

-How about insurance proceeds? My health insurers have paid out nearly a million bucks in my behalf since 2005. Even net of premiums, have i robbed the Lord of tens of thousand of dollars? And when I exit, stage right, what about my life insurance proceeds to my widow?

I could go on. It simply isn't as easy to figure anymore. So you do your best, write your check, and I guess we find out on the day of judgment if we guessed right.

[canard78]

So you do your best, write your check, and I guess we find out on the day of judgment if we guessed right.

Indeed. You could go on. Which is why the simplest solution is the 1970 letter... Work it out for yourself and then stay true to it.

If they made the instruction more specific it would only cause a bigger problem. The more specific it got the more people would see loopholes. This way it really is simply between us and God.

[ERayR]

Indeed. You could go on. Which is why the simplest solution is the 1970 letter... Work it out for yourself and then stay true to it.

If they made the instruction more specific it would only cause a bigger problem. The more specific it got the more people would see loopholes. This way it really is simply between us and God.

IMNSHO it is better not to look for reasons to pay less but rather to b generous.

[DBMormon]

IMNSHO it is better not to look for reasons to pay less but rather to b generous.

agreed, while maintaining it is a individual decision to be done between them and the Lord and to have no judgement passed by another other then God.

[ERayR]

agreed, while maintaining it is a individual decision to be done between them and the Lord and to have no judgement passed by another other then God.

When and where have I ever said differently?

[Tacenda]

I guess donating to charity or pay much more in fast offerings wouldn't suffice if one would like to pay tithing on increase or surplus?

[DBMormon]

When and where have I ever said differently?

You didn't but I clarified for other readers on the thread

[Calm]

I guess donating to charity or pay much more in fast offerings wouldn't suffice if one would like to pay tithing on increase or surplus?

if you mean telling the bishop you paid your tithes into fast offerings and other charities, no...that is not tithing.

[canard78]

if you mean telling the bishop you paid your tithes into fast offerings and other charities, no...that is not tithing.

"Inasmuch as he have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren ye have done it unto me."

If we give 10% of income to those in need, haven't we still given it to God?

[Calm]

"Inasmuch as he have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren ye have done it unto me."

If we give 10% of income to those in need, haven't we still given it to God?

Using one commandment to invalidate another can be problematic. We need to be careful we are doing God's will rather than our own. Obedience being better than sacrifice and all. We may have given it to God, but not necessarily how he asked us to. Edited July 15, 2013 by calmoriah

[rongo]

Oh, says one, [determining what is surplus] ought to be left to our own judgment. Our own judgment! Who in the world among all the Latter-day Saints would have any surplus property if it is left to his own judgment? How many in Ogden have given surplus property to-day? Go throughout all this town and ask them if they have surplus property. "Oh, no, I have not quite enough to carry on my business according to my own mind. I have a manufacturing establishment here, I wish I had a few thousand dollars more than I have to put in it. I want twenty thousand dollars more. I have no surplus property." Some man starts another business, and he has no surplus property. And you may go through all the towns and villages and not find a man who has surplus property. He could not be found. Then I should judge, that the men to determine what is surplus property, and what is not, are those men whom God has ordained to this power, namely, the Bishops, who have a knowledge of these things by the power of the Holy Ghost, and by virtue of their calling. The President of this Church will be prepared to say whether a man has surplus property or not, and let him specify, and the man be satisfied. This is the law of Tithing, inferior to the full law of consecration, and also inferior to the law of Enoch . . . Ought we not to be ashamed if we cannot comply with one of the lesser laws? (Orson Pratt, AUGUST 16, 1873. Journal of Discourses 16:157-158)

[canard78]

Using one commandment to invalidate another can be problematic. We need to be careful we are doing God's will rather than our own. Obedience being better than sacrifice and all. We may have given it to God, but not necessarily how he asked us to.

I'm not going to make any great argument for tithing as charitable giving not via the bishop to the church... Because I agree that an LDS tithe is clearly defined. If you want to be considered compliant you need to follow the prescribed way.

However... Are the blessings of a 10% tithe and a 10% charitable gift comparable.

Given my earlier post saying that the blessings of being a willing tithe payer was the charitable attitude, lack of materialism/love of money etc, then I'd consider the end benefit to be similar. But you're right that giving 10% to charity would probably not make you seem as a full tithe payer at settlement.

[DBMormon]

Oh, says one, [determining what is surplus] ought to be left to our own judgment. Our own judgment! Who in the world among all the Latter-day Saints would have any surplus property if it is left to his own judgment? How many in Ogden have given surplus property to-day? Go throughout all this town and ask them if they have surplus property. "Oh, no, I have not quite enough to carry on my business according to my own mind. I have a manufacturing establishment here, I wish I had a few thousand dollars more than I have to put in it. I want twenty thousand dollars more. I have no surplus property." Some man starts another business, and he has no surplus property. And you may go through all the towns and villages and not find a man who has surplus property. He could not be found. Then I should judge, that the men to determine what is surplus property, and what is not, are those men whom God has ordained to this power, namely, the Bishops, who have a knowledge of these things by the power of the Holy Ghost, and by virtue of their calling. The President of this Church will be prepared to say whether a man has surplus property or not, and let him specify, and the man be satisfied. This is the law of Tithing, inferior to the full law of consecration, and also inferior to the law of Enoch . . . Ought we not to be ashamed if we cannot comply with one of the lesser laws? (Orson Pratt, AUGUST 16, 1873. Journal of Discourses 16:157-158)

Great Quote except the 1970 FP statement trumps this and it says

- no one (including Bishops ) is justified in making any other statement than this.

- every member of the Church should be entitled to make his own decision

[DBMormon]

Let me add - I absolutely think the Bishop, SP, ect.. has the right to exercise the spirit of discernment to call someone on the carpet for being dishonest about tithing but that position is based on the person's heart and not the individuals personal definition of tithing.

Edited July 15, 2013 by DBMormon

[Tacenda]

Using one commandment to invalidate another can be problematic. We need to be careful we are doing God's will rather than our own. Obedience being better than sacrifice and all. We may have given it to God, but not necessarily how he asked us to.

I'm afraid I know the answer already. I don't believe it's possible to do the 10% as increase vs. income. That figure is bound to be far less in my circumstance, and I'm not ready to go that route. But will still help outside charities more often than I ever use to.

Matthew 25:37-40

New International Version (NIV)

37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

BTW, Anyone hear about the new Michael Quinn book set to come out next year and is supposedly about church finances?

[Calm]

I'm afraid I know the answer already. I don't believe it's possible to do the 10% as increase vs. income. That figure is bound to be far less in my circumstance, and I'm not ready to go that route.

I hope that whatever you decide you will be able to do so quickly and in a way that brings you peace and assurance the Lord is pleased with you (and I do mean whatever you decide, I have no clue what is the right way for you to go about paying tithing...I don't make that call for others).

[JDave]

A centure ago, it was simpler. You had a hundred acres of potatoes, you gave the harvest of ten acres to the bishop. Now, should you tithe on:

-Your employers contribution to benefits such as health insurance, 401K, or tax offsets on prizes? What about non-monetary compensation like the TV I won as a door prize one year at the Christmas party? Heck, what about the cost of food and entertainment provided at the christmas party, or even the monthly company lunch?

-As others have mentioned, taxes can often exceed 50% when federal, state, and social security are taken into account. So you are donating 20%+ of your take home in some cases.

-How about insurance proceeds? My health insurers have paid out nearly a million bucks in my behalf since 2005. Even net of premiums, have i robbed the Lord of tens of thousand of dollars? And when I exit, stage right, what about my life insurance proceeds to my widow?

I could go on. It simply isn't as easy to figure anymore. So you do your best, write your check, and I guess we find out on the day of judgment if we guessed right.

When I taught this lesson I used some of the above, referring to Orson Scott Card's column about tithing, to push back a bit on the gross vs. net question. Basically said that we should prayerfully determine what is correct and most definitely not judge others because even paying on gross isn't necessarily simple. Taking your pre-deduction paycheck amount and simply dividing by ten does not take into account any benefits that your employer is subsidizing -- like health care or retirement contributions. So figure out what seems right, and when you feel good about it and you're not losing sleep over it (see below), then consistently pay it and leave everyone else to do likewise.

[A man might ask himself] How much of this tithing shall I give? Cannot I reserve a portion to myself? The Lord is very rich and I doubt if He will be troubled at all if I withhold a little for myself; and so a little to oneself is withheld. But that very little that is reserved will trouble that man, if his conscience is like the consciences of most of the Latter-day Saints. It will trouble him more or less in the day time, and also when he thinks of it at night. He does not have that happiness that it is his privilege to enjoy—it goes from him. Lorenzo Snow, In Conference Report, Apr. 1899, 51

Edited July 15, 2013 by JDave

[EllenMaksoud]

I'm retired, on Social Security, with a small pension from the factory where I worked. I look at what is put in the bank each month, and give 10% of that.

[DBMormon]

"The celestial law requires one-tenth part of all a man's substance which he possesses at the time he comes into the church (See D&C 119:1), and one-tenth part of his annual increase ever after(See D&C 119:4). IF IT REQUIRES ALL MAN CAN EARN TO SUPPORT HIMSELF AND HIS FAMILY, HE IS NOT TITHED AT ALL. The celestial law does not take the mother's and children's bread, neither ought else which they really need for their comfort. The poor that have not of this world's good to spare, but serve and honor God according to the best of their abilities in every other way, shall have a celestial crown in the Eternal Kingdom of our Father." (The Millenial Star, 1847. Orson Hyde, editor)

So is paying tithe on leftover a viable option if one feels this is their answer as they study out and through prayer?

Or do you feel Bro. Hyde is off base and it really is a debate between net and gross?