False Prophet?

[Alan]

I would like to explore the possibility that Brigham Young (and perhaps others) could have been a false prophet, but more especially, whether that would impact on whether Thomas S Monson is a true prophet today. Could it be possible for a false prophet, or a non-prophet, to occupy the position, the judgement seat if you like, and his successors still be prophets?

Let me explain.

The more I learn the more I am suspicious of brother Brigham's prophetic abilities. Significantly, he himself never claimed to be a prophet. In fact he actually claimed he wasn't, but was a steady hand to preserve the church. Polygamy, the priesthood ban on Africans, Adam-God, even blood atonement etc, all seem to indicate that he taught and practiced false doctrine. So let's assume he was a false/non prophet and that Joseph Smith's statement that if "Brigham Young ever lead the church he would lead it to hell" were true. Would that invalidate all successive church presidents?

My own opinion is that it would not.

[Calm]

Joseph Smith's statement that if "Brigham Young ever lead the church he would lead it to hell"

CFR

[Alan]

CFR

There were a number of affidavitts collected from church members who swore to the effect that they were present when Joseph said this. It appears it was said more than once, and in Brigham's presence.

I am just about to go out, but will post the references when I return.

[Tacenda]

I think what he did is in comparison to what JS did with the BoM. He was amazing at building the Utah saints and creating the church we have now. I think he was inspired, but I don't think he even believed he was a prophet but a president, atleast I thought I read something about him saying this, maybe someone on here can help. I think that many people can get divine guidance. Over at Staylds.com is a poster that mentions an experience like this when he visited with a man that was not in his right mind and didn't speak coherently, but all the sudden he told this man what he needed to do about a challenge in the man's life and then suddenly he was back to talking incoherently again. So the spirit can work through many people that aren't prophets. So maybe BY had it wrong on many things, but he seemed to get some things right too. I see a need for us as individuals to work on getting close enough to the spirit that we never rely totally on a middleman for guidance. I think it's great if Thomas S. Monson runs the church through divine inspiration but I don't think he wants us to skip getting divine help in our personal lives.

[WmLaw]

It's an interesting question.

I've pondered this and other related ones. Like, is prophecy a gift or a calling? Can someone have the gift of prophesy without the calling? Can someone be called as a prophet without having the spiritual gift to accomplish it? Does our sustaining someone as a prophet, seer, and revelator give them that stewardship - thus making us subject to any and all of the inspiration they receive?

[Kevin Christensen]

When asking such questions, I think it particularly helpful to have a clear idea what to expect from a true prophet, and to consider how one should go about exploring the question (that is, what to expect of one's self):

http://en.fairmormon.org/Biblical_Keys_for_Discerning_True_and_False_Prophets

In general, "He said and or did things of which I disapprove" is a particularly effective way of disapproving of someone, but isn't necessarily relevant to the question of whether a candidate actually meets the important criteria.

FWIW

Kevin Christensen

Pittsburgh, PA

[blackstrap]

Was Moses a false prophet? A review of the life of Moses as found in the scriptures shows all kinds of things that he did correctly and a few that he messed up on. Even God was miffed at Moses for taking the glory upon himself over that water miracle. Apparently that was the reason Moses was not to enter the promised land. So , if God Himself is upset with Moses,did that make him a false prophet.? I say NO.

Brigham is considered the Moses of our times pertaining to the church. Did he make mistakes? You bet. Could anyone else at the time have done the tasks assigned to him? Perhaps, but I doubt it. Knowing the times and the challenges Brigham faced,I cut him a great deal of slack. We will need another like him to separate the wheat and the chaff in the church one of these days. Any volunteers?

[Storm Rider]

It would seem you are talking about a topic that is multi-faceted and more than just a bit complex. First of all, what do you mean by the term prophet? Can a prophet believe in false things or must a prophet always be in possession of total and complete truth. If so, do you have an example of a prophet that meets this standard? We recognize the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve as prophets, seers, and revelators, that they hold the keys of the kingdom and through those keys the priesthood is capable of functioning upon the earth. To my understanding, (understand that my degree could not wet the bottom of a thimble), we have not had a seer since the time of Joseph. If one were to be really snippy we could say that very few of the succeeding prophets have prophesied either. It really depends upon how loose or how tight we want the definitions to be. What we know is that they lead the Church and are inspired in doing so....which many would argue that is revelation and prophesy. Was BY a false prophet; not in this world (or any other world for that matter) in my opinion. BY was, by the grace of Eternal God, instrumental in the actual formalizing of the Church, organizing it, and putting it on stable footing in order for it to grow into what the Church as it is today, Additionally, I think your standard for a false prophet is very low indeed; how many of the OT, NT and other prophets would also be listed as false with the same standard?

[Duncan]

I have said this before but Moses, Peter and Brigham Young are men on my list of cut them a little slack. The jobs they had to do is beyond anything anyone would wish for. Can you imagine trying to lead the Children of Israel out of Egypt? Follow in the footsteps of Jesus and to preach Jesus to people that rejected him? Pres. Young had to move a church across a country to an area that none of them had ever been to before and make it "blossom as the rose" once they got there. Not only that he had to send out missionaries to preach the Gospel all over the place and set up the PEF to get them to Utah and build cities, Temples and towns. If he or Moses and Peter made mistakes along the way, forgive them

Edited March 12, 2013 by Duncan

[Gillebre]

It's an interesting question.

I've pondered this and other related ones. Like, is prophecy a gift or a calling? Can someone have the gift of prophesy without the calling? Can someone be called as a prophet without having the spiritual gift to accomplish it? Does our sustaining someone as a prophet, seer, and revelator give them that stewardship - thus making us subject to any and all of the inspiration they receive?

There is the spiritual gift of prophecy, and to prophesy, although I'm not certain the specific differences (someone correct me if I'm wrong here).

I think that it's possible for someone not to have either gift before being called as a Prophet or Apostle, but I'm quite certain it would then be given.

I lean more towards the idea that they would have it, simply because God prepares us for the callings we are to have with what we need to accomplish them.

[mathonihah]

There is a difference between erring in doctrine, and being a false prophet. One can be a true prophet, and still err in doctrine. I don't think that anyone is ever justified before God in erring in doctrine, especially if that error is caused by arrogance or pride. But that would not automatically make him a false prophet.

If a prophet errs in doctrine, it is up to the Lord to correct him in his own time and way. It also puts the burden of responsibility on us as Church members to have the Holy Ghost with us at all times, and not be misled by such errors when they are made. The Lord may allow it to happen in order to test our worthiness and faithfulness, as well as that of the prophet.

Edited March 12, 2013 by mathonihah

[Tacenda]

http://athoughtfulfaith.org/2013/03/12/031-032-james-mcconkie-family-faith-and-the-historical-christ/ This is a fascinating podcast of an interview with the grandson of Bruce R. Mcconkie. He speaks about prophets not always doing the right thing. Plus alot more. Some things he discussed is the fact that the church presidency doesn't always know everything in church history. They haven't researched it. Also, they are too busy to anyway. Plus he discussed how we must teach our children everything about the church even the stuff the anti bring up so as to them not getting blown away and losing their testimony. He mentions how his grandfather admitted getting things wrong. This should have it's own thread, if anyone feels inclined, I cannot start a thread for some reason.

[Blah]

There is a difference between the prophetic office and the prophetic gift. I believe it is possible to have one and not the other. The President of the Church can be sensitive to the Spirit and be led by inspiration, but not necessarily exercise the gift of prophecy the same way Joseph did. That doesn't necessarily mean he is not the man anointed by God to lead His Church, or that he doesn't hold all the keys of the Priesthood.

Edited March 12, 2013 by Blah

[CV75]

I would like to explore the possibility that Brigham Young (and perhaps others) could have been a false prophet, but more especially, whether that would impact on whether Thomas S Monson is a true prophet today. Could it be possible for a false prophet, or a non-prophet, to occupy the position, the judgement seat if you like, and his successors still be prophets?

Let me explain.

The more I learn the more I am suspicious of brother Brigham's prophetic abilities. Significantly, he himself never claimed to be a prophet. In fact he actually claimed he wasn't, but was a steady hand to preserve the church. Polygamy, the priesthood ban on Africans, Adam-God, even blood atonement etc, all seem to indicate that he taught and practiced false doctrine. So let's assume he was a false/non prophet and that Joseph Smith's statement that if "Brigham Young ever lead the church he would lead it to hell" were true. Would that invalidate all successive church presidents?

My own opinion is that it would not.

In succession, the keys can be transmitted by the majority of remaining / living Quorum of Twelve regardless of the deceased President's performance as a true or false prophet. It seems to me that you would have to show that each remaining / living holder of the keys is a false prophet also and has lost the keys before you can charge that no subsequent prophet possesses the keys, even if but one virtuous holder of the keys remains.

But I am comfortable saying that even a false prophet can still hold the keys in the earth for the interests of the Kingdom and the covenants of the worthy saints until the Lord takes them from him.

[Questing Beast]

I would like to explore the possibility that Brigham Young (and perhaps others) could have been a false prophet, but more especially, whether that would impact on whether Thomas S Monson is a true prophet today. Could it be possible for a false prophet, or a non-prophet, to occupy the position, the judgement seat if you like, and his successors still be prophets?

Let me explain.

The more I learn the more I am suspicious of brother Brigham's prophetic abilities. Significantly, he himself never claimed to be a prophet. In fact he actually claimed he wasn't, but was a steady hand to preserve the church. Polygamy, the priesthood ban on Africans, Adam-God, even blood atonement etc, all seem to indicate that he taught and practiced false doctrine. So let's assume he was a false/non prophet and that Joseph Smith's statement that if "Brigham Young ever lead the church he would lead it to hell" were true. Would that invalidate all successive church presidents?

My own opinion is that it would not.

Yes, if you believe in the "doctrine" of succession, a broken line of true prophets by an inserted false prophet would break the succession. There have been two interregnums, after JS and after BY. In both cases there was disagreement on who should succeed. Nothing was ever addressed as to the process by which BY and after him John Taylor were chosen. It simply became the process to choose the president of the quorum of the twelve. "Let God sort them out", sort of logic, and we don't have to think about it or rock the boat by choosing someone else. So far, so good.

But personally it is all moot, since there are no prophets, only men (and women) who believe that they are speaking for God. Their followers can and do add veracity to the leader's words, usually by taking them further than intended. This is certainly true in the case of BY, who, as you point out, resisted being called a prophet and preferred "leader" status to prophetic status....

[Ahab]

Could it be possible for a false prophet, or a non-prophet, to occupy the position, the judgement seat if you like, and his successors still be prophets?

You mean, generally? I'm not so sure if you understand how little it takes to be a prophet of God.

For one thing, there's a little difference between someone being a prophet of God, and someone being a Prophet of God. The difference is whether or not to capitalize the letter p, and why we would or would not.

1) We use the capital P when someone is the President of the Church, at a particular time.

2) We use the little p when someone is not the President of the Church, at a particular time.

Big P, or little p. That is the question.. Now for some reason I feel like I'm talking like Nacho Libre. He was a real religious man.

Anyways, as I was saying... btw, would you like some toast, or some corn on the cob. Anyways, not to get too far off the train track, the first issue is about how little it takes to be a prophet of God. Do you know how easy it is? Basically all it really takes is to have God tell you something, in whatever way God might tell you something, and then for you to share what God told you. That's how easy it is.

So all Brigham Young would have had to do to be a prophet of God was to be told something by God, and then tell others what God told him. That's a little p, btw. To be a big P he would also have to be the President of the Church, correctly appointed.

Anyways, that's it for the p issue. Now on to whether or not someone else could have become the President of the Church regardless of whether or not Brother Brigham had ever been told anything by God with him then sharing that with others.

And the answer to that question is Yes. Let me know if you would like me to explain that... and with or without toast, or a salad.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

I would like to explore the possibility that Brigham Young (and perhaps others) could have been a false prophet, but more especially, whether that would impact on whether Thomas S Monson is a true prophet today. Could it be possible for a false prophet, or a non-prophet, to occupy the position, the judgement seat if you like, and his successors still be prophets?

Let me explain.

The more I learn the more I am suspicious of brother Brigham's prophetic abilities. Significantly, he himself never claimed to be a prophet. In fact he actually claimed he wasn't, but was a steady hand to preserve the church. Polygamy, the priesthood ban on Africans, Adam-God, even blood atonement etc, all seem to indicate that he taught and practiced false doctrine. So let's assume he was a false/non prophet and that Joseph Smith's statement that if "Brigham Young ever lead the church he would lead it to hell" were true. Would that invalidate all successive church presidents?

My own opinion is that it would not.

We have the Quorum of the 12 and two other in the Presidency to ensure (or is the insure) that a Prophet does not lead the Church astray. There is a reason my of BY's teaching are not in place today. As this Church learns, it changes to fit what it has learned. Prophets have minds of their own...they are not on a phone line every min of the day with God.

[omni]

I keep reading on this board that "the prophets aren't infallible". While I would acknowledge that even the most ardent TBM out there doesn't believe they're perfect, I do think there's been a culture created that when speaking on spiritual matters they're about as close to infallible as you can get.

One of the most popular primary songs contains contains the lyrics, "follow the prophet, follow the prophet he'll lead the way". We have leaders of the church not only making the following statements, but in some cases having them repeated many times over by other leaders through the years:

"The prophet will never lead the church astray"

-multiple church leaders

"when the prophet speaks, the debate is over"

-Sister Elaine Canon

“My boy, you always keep your eye on the President of the Church, and if he tells you to do something wrong, and you do it, the Lord will bless you for it.

-    Prophet Heber J. Grant, as quoted by Apostle Marion G. Romney in “The Covenant of the Priesthood,” Ensign, July 1972, p. 98

“I have never preached a sermon and sent it out to the children of men, that they may not call scripture.”

-    Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, v. 13, p. 95

How do we reconcile this culture of near infallibility (that imo is reinforced by our leaders) with obvious false doctrine having been taught by multiple prophets over the years?

[pogi]

I keep reading on this board that "the prophets aren't infallible". While I would acknowledge that even the most ardent TBM out there doesn't believe they're perfect, I do think there's been a culture created that when speaking on spiritual matters they're about as close to infallible as you can get.

One of the most popular primary songs contains contains the lyrics, "follow the prophet, follow the prophet he'll lead the way". We have leaders of the church not only making the following statements, but in some cases having them repeated many times over by other leaders through the years:

"The prophet will never lead the church astray"

-multiple church leaders

"when the prophet speaks, the debate is over"

-Sister Elaine Canon

“My boy, you always keep your eye on the President of the Church, and if he tells you to do something wrong, and you do it, the Lord will bless you for it.

- Prophet Heber J. Grant, as quoted by Apostle Marion G. Romney in “The Covenant of the Priesthood,” Ensign, July 1972, p. 98

“I have never preached a sermon and sent it out to the children of men, that they may not call scripture.”

- Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, v. 13, p. 95

How do we reconcile this culture of near infallibility (that imo is reinforced by our leaders) with obvious false doctrine having been taught by multiple prophets over the years?

These quotes never mention infallibility. First of all, the quote, "the prophet will never lead the church astray" is official doctrine of the church and is found in the standard works in one of the official declarations. This is true, the prophet will never lead the church into apostasy, this does not mean that they are infallible in their teachings.

[mfbukowski]

I would like to explore the possibility that Brigham Young (and perhaps others) could have been a false prophet, but more especially, whether that would impact on whether Thomas S Monson is a true prophet today. Could it be possible for a false prophet, or a non-prophet, to occupy the position, the judgement seat if you like, and his successors still be prophets?

I disagree he was a false prophet, but if God can call whoever he wants to be a prophet, as he did Joseph, who's to say that they must be someone else's successor?

[Duncan]

I keep reading on this board that "the prophets aren't infallible". While I would acknowledge that even the most ardent TBM out there doesn't believe they're perfect, I do think there's been a culture created that when speaking on spiritual matters they're about as close to infallible as you can get.

One of the most popular primary songs contains contains the lyrics, "follow the prophet, follow the prophet he'll lead the way". We have leaders of the church not only making the following statements, but in some cases having them repeated many times over by other leaders through the years:

"The prophet will never lead the church astray"

-multiple church leaders

"when the prophet speaks, the debate is over"

-Sister Elaine Canon

“My boy, you always keep your eye on the President of the Church, and if he tells you to do something wrong, and you do it, the Lord will bless you for it.

- Prophet Heber J. Grant, as quoted by Apostle Marion G. Romney in “The Covenant of the Priesthood,” Ensign, July 1972, p. 98

“I have never preached a sermon and sent it out to the children of men, that they may not call scripture.”

- Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, v. 13, p. 95

How do we reconcile this culture of near infallibility (that imo is reinforced by our leaders) with obvious false doctrine having been taught by multiple prophets over the years?

read this by President Lorenzo Snow, I think it's an even handed view

"Seventy years ago this Church was organized with six members. We

commenced, so to speak, as an infant. We had our prejudices to combat.

Our ignorance troubled us in regard to what the Lord intended to do

and what He wanted us to do. Through the blessings of the Lord,

however, we managed to move along in our stage of infancy, receiving

support from the Lord as He saw proper to give it. We advanced into

boyhood, and still we undoubtedly made some mistakes, which did not

generally arise from a design to make them, but from a lack of

experience. We understand very well, when we reflect back upon our own

lives, that we did many foolish things when we were boys, because of

our lack of experience and because we had not learned fully to obey

the instructions of our fathers and mothers. We could not then

comprehend that it was absolutely necessary, for our proper

advancement, that we should observe the counsels of our parents. Many

of us afterwards learned it, but too late perhaps to correct

ourselves. Yet as we advanced the experience of the past materially

assisted us to avoid such mistakes as we had made in our boyhood. I

t has been so with the Church. Our errors have generally arisen from

a lack of comprehending what the Lord required us to do. But now we

are pretty well along to manhood; we are seventy years of age, and one

would imagine that after a man had lived through his infancy, through

his boyhood, and on until he had arrived at the age of seventy years,

he would be able, through his long experience, to do a great many

things that seemed impossible and in fact were impossible for him to

do in his boyhood state. When we examine ourselves, however, we

discover that we are still not doing exactly as we ought to do,

notwithstanding all our experience. We discern that there are things

which we fail to do that the Lord expects us to perform, some of which

he required us to do in our boyhood. But we feel thankful and grateful

that we are enabled now, through our past experience, to accomplish

many things that we could not do in former times and that we are able

to escape individual sins that have brought trouble upon us in times

past. While we congratulate ourselves in this direction, we certainly

ought to feel that we have not yet arrived at perfection. There are

many things for us to do yet."

April 1900, general conference

[Closet Doubter]

It's easy to reconcile that they somtimes teach false doctrine. They sometimes teach "philosophies of men, mingled with scripture)" and sometimes "teach for doctrine the commandments of men".

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

I keep reading on this board that "the prophets aren't infallible". While I would acknowledge that even the most ardent TBM out there doesn't believe they're perfect, I do think there's been a culture created that when speaking on spiritual matters they're about as close to infallible as you can get.

One of the most popular primary songs contains contains the lyrics, "follow the prophet, follow the prophet he'll lead the way". We have leaders of the church not only making the following statements, but in some cases having them repeated many times over by other leaders through the years:

"The prophet will never lead the church astray"

-multiple church leaders

"when the prophet speaks, the debate is over"

-Sister Elaine Canon

“My boy, you always keep your eye on the President of the Church, and if he tells you to do something wrong, and you do it, the Lord will bless you for it.

-    Prophet Heber J. Grant, as quoted by Apostle Marion G. Romney in “The Covenant of the Priesthood,” Ensign, July 1972, p. 98

“I have never preached a sermon and sent it out to the children of men, that they may not call scripture.”

-    Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, v. 13, p. 95

How do we reconcile this culture of near infallibility (that imo is reinforced by our leaders) with obvious false doctrine having been taught by multiple prophets over the years?

A Prophet supported by the other 14 men I mentioned. Church History is quite clear on this, as many of the issues mentioned by BY, do not and never will reflect Church doctrine, while some may, those listed have all come to nothing in the Church today.

[Avatar4321]

When I was first seriously studying the Church I was reading the Brigham Young manual and the Spirit testified to me that He was a prophet.

I know we use the title of Prophet to specifically as the President of the Church, but the technical office is President of the High Priesthood. In fact, all the Quorum of 12 and First Presidency are sustined as prophets, seers, and revelators.

The scriptures define the Spirit of Prophecy as a testimony of Jesus Christ. Anyone who has a testimony of Jesus Christ has the spirit of prophecy and is thus a prophet in their own right. They just aren't the President of the High Priesthood.

If you think about it, every First Sunday of the month, those who speak a prophecying to the people. There is a reason that the gift of prophecy is better than the gift of tongues.

[mathonihah]

I was just reminded of the following quote be Joseph Smith:

“It does not prove that a man is not a good man because he errs in doctrine.” (History of the Church, 5:340)

To be a prophet the requirement is to be a good man, and have faith in Jesus Christ. Never erring in doctrine is desirable, and also possible, but not indispensable. Erring in doctrine is never excusable, always sinful (especially coming from an Apostle or the President of the Church), but also forgivable.

BY was not the only one who made those kinds of mistakes in those days. A lot of them did. And there was a reason for it. But it does not mean that they were not true prophets.

Edited March 13, 2013 by mathonihah