False Prophet?

[omni]

These quotes never mention infallibility. First of all, the quote, "the prophet will never lead the church astray" is official doctrine of the church and is found in the standard works in one of the official declarations. This is true, the prophet will never lead the church into apostasy, this does not mean that they are infallible in their teachings.

The quote never mentions "apostasy", it specifically says "astray". How is teaching as doctrine Adam/God, blood atonement, and the many false declarations of those of African descent not leading the church astray?

Would you agree there is a culture of belief in the church (that is propogated by the leaders) that when speaking on spiritual matters, the prophets are near infallible?

[mathonihah]

The quote never mentions "apostasy", it specifically says "astray". How is teaching as doctrine Adam/God, blood atonement, and the many false declarations of those of African descent not leading the church astray?

Would you agree there is a culture of belief in the church (that is propogated by the leaders) that when speaking on spiritual matters, the prophets are near infallible?

“Leading the Church astray” means intentionally leading the Church astray, not making a mistake in doctrine. Those incorrect doctrines never led the Church astray, because they were controversial from the beginning, and were never adopted as doctrine of the Church.

[pogi]

The quote never mentions "apostasy", it specifically says "astray". How is teaching as doctrine Adam/God, blood atonement, and the many false declarations of those of African descent not leading the church astray?

I have to accept that the word "astray" is used in this instance as it is used in the scriptures in reference to The Shepherd. The prophet holds all of the untainted keys (despite his mistaken teachings) which open to us salvation through the authority of the savior. They always lead us to the shepherd through these keys and never astray from Him. Even if you believe the prophet's mistaken teachings, you will still be called Christ's people and be a part of his fold. You will never be led astray from the true fold for believing the prophet. These mistakes will work themselves out in time.

Would you agree there is a culture of belief in the church (that is propogated by the leaders) that when speaking on spiritual matters, the prophets are near infallible?

This does seem to be the culture, which some of the leaders are apart of. I personally do not believe every word that comes out of the prophets mouth as far as teachings goes, but I will always follow his direction and council.

Edited March 13, 2013 by pogi

[Duncan]

The quote never mentions "apostasy", it specifically says "astray". How is teaching as doctrine Adam/God, blood atonement, and the many false declarations of those of African descent not leading the church astray?

Would you agree there is a culture of belief in the church (that is propogated by the leaders) that when speaking on spiritual matters, the prophets are near infallible?

I think it was Richard Bushman who said something like the Chruch nto being led astray does nto mean it won't get into trouble, has the Church been in trouble yes, since day 1 and probably will continue till the end of times, it was like that in Jesus' time as well and Moses and name a prophet and tough stuff

[omni]

I think it was Richard Bushman who said something like the Chruch nto being led astray does nto mean it won't get into trouble, has the Church been in trouble yes, since day 1 and probably will continue till the end of times, it was like that in Jesus' time as well and Moses and name a prophet and tough stuff

Don't mean to be such a contrarian here, but how many times have we heard the phrase, "the people aren't perfect, the church is". So now we're teaching it isn't?

[Duncan]

Don't mean to be such a contrarian here, but how many times have we heard the phrase, "the people aren't perfect, the church is". So now we're teaching it isn't?

oh, I hear it all the time! and the Maple Leafs lost tonite so I am great! but it wouldn't hurt to teach a balanced view, but what form it takes while faith may increase is the challenge

[Calm]

Don't mean to be such a contrarian here, but how many times have we heard the phrase, "the people aren't perfect, the church is". So now we're teaching it isn't?

It would depend on what you mean, Neal A Maxwell defined "the Church is perfect" in its doctrine and divine leadership, not in its mortal leadership.

[Duncan]

It would depend on what you mean, Neal A Maxwell defined "the Church is perfect" in its doctrine and divine leadership, not in its mortal leadership.

do you know where he said that? I would love to read it! I believe and not doing a CFR on ya or anything of the kind

[williamsmith]

I would like to explore the possibility that Brigham Young (and perhaps others) could have been a false prophet, but more especially, whether that would impact on whether Thomas S Monson is a true prophet today. Could it be possible for a false prophet, or a non-prophet, to occupy the position, the judgement seat if you like, and his successors still be prophets?

Nope, because the Church has processes to remove false prophets.

Let me explain.

The more I learn the more I am suspicious of brother Brigham's prophetic abilities. Significantly, he himself never claimed to be a prophet. In fact he actually claimed he wasn't, but was a steady hand to preserve the church.

Have you ever read his words outside of a few cherry picked controversial issues? I have, he was a very wise man, and for certain a Prophet of the Lord.

Polygamy,

Since when was Polygamy "false doctrine"?

God gave it a few times in the Bible, not of men alone, further Joseph Smith started the doctrinal basis of it in our time, so how is this false doctrine?

the priesthood ban on Africans,

There have been many restrictions on the Priesthood through history. Again, how is this false doctrine?

Also, what makes you think this was false doctrine? Did you ever think God had a good reason?

What was the history of the African man during the ban? Ever think the ban was in place because of racism?

And I don't mean by the Church, I mean in society itself. Again, when did God say it was false doctrine?

When he spoke on the issue he simply ended the ban, and said nothing else.

Adam-God,

Adam-God is still taught in the Temple. How is this false doctrine?

Brigham wasn't teaching God the Father was Adam, especially when he taught the normal understanding of who God and Adam was at the same very time, and not only that, the same thing being taught in the Temple at the time. Or do you think Brigham had a split personality?

Critics and the rare mormons ignorant understanding of this issue is not Brigham teaching false doctrine. Again, how is this false doctrine?

even blood atonement

Blood Atonement is found within the Bible. Again, how is this false doctrine?

It's not an emphasized doctrine, and anti's especially misunderstand it, but that doesn't make false doctrine.

etc, all seem to indicate that he taught and practiced false doctrine.

Actually, all this seems like you bearing false witness of Brigham Young.

If Brigham actually taught false doctrine, to any reasonable degree, we wouldn't believe him to be a Prophet.

Of course, he errored sometimes, as a human does, but he was still a prophet despite the rare error.

So let's assume he was a false/non prophet and that Joseph Smith's statement that if "Brigham Young ever lead the church he would lead it to hell" were true. Would that invalidate all successive church presidents?

I'll let someone else verify that claim as invalid which I'm sure it is. But as to your question, no it wouldn't.

Any prophet that was false to any reasonable degree would be removed by us.

My own opinion is that it would not.

That's good, but be aware, this is not the Catholic Church, we do expect worthiness in our leaders, and if they aren't worthy, they don't deserve to be there. This is important to prevent apostasy of the Church itself in spirit and it's theology.

I suspect that someone else might be a "false prophet" given these types of judgments against Brigham. After all, the Lord would have us all to be Prophets.

Edited March 13, 2013 by williamsmith

[Robert F. Smith]

The quote never mentions "apostasy", it specifically says "astray". How is teaching as doctrine Adam/God, blood atonement, and the many false declarations of those of African descent not leading the church astray?

Would you agree there is a culture of belief in the church (that is propogated by the leaders) that when speaking on spiritual matters, the prophets are near infallible?

Of course not. Perhaps there are silly billies that were raised to believe that sort of poppycock. Reminds me of the official doctrine that the Pope, when speaking on morals and doctrine, is infallible. The LDS Church has no such doctrine. Orson Pratt did not accept some of Brigham's most ardently held opinions on doctrine and openly disagreed. Indeed, today (on those matters) Orson has prevailed -- even though in his and Brigham's lifetime he did not. Consult D&C 136 and ask yourself whether this official revelation is of God. Did not the Mormon people reenact in sacred time the Exodus of Israel? And that in a Jewish Jubilee year -- unbeknownst to Brother Brigham. Can you see the forest for the trees?

Jedediah M. Grant, mayor of SLC and counselor to Brigham, said it best in an 1852 letter to the N.Y. Herald:

I can’t undertake to explain Brigham Young to your Atlantic citizens, or expect you to put him at his value. Your great men Eastward are to me like your ivory and pearl handled table knives, balance handles, more shiny than the inside of my watch case; but, with only edge enough to slice bread and cheese or help spoon victuals, and all alike by the dozen, one with another. Brigham is the article that sells out west with us – between a Roman Cutlass and a beef butcher knife, the thing to cut up a deer or cut down an enemy, and that will save your life or carve your dinner every bit as well, though the handpiece is buck horn and the case is a hogskin hanging in the breech of your pantaloons. You, that judge men by the handle and sheath, how can I make you know a fine

Blade

?

Edited March 13, 2013 by Robert F. Smith

[Robert F. Smith]

omni, on 12 March 2013 - 08:06 PM, said:

Don't mean to be such a contrarian here, but how many times have we heard the phrase, "the people aren't perfect, the church is". So now we're teaching it isn't?

oh, I hear it all the time! and the Maple Leafs lost tonite so I am great! but it wouldn't hurt to teach a balanced view, but what form it takes while faith may increase is the challenge

The Church is an earthly, temporary institution governed by an eternal priesthood. It is the Kingdom of God on Earth and may take whatever form is needed at any given time. It is designed to fulfill several goals in the plan of salvation and in spreading the Gospel of Jesus Christ. The President of the LDS Church is more importantly the President of the High Priesthood. Once the completion of salvation on this Earth is achieved, the Church dissolves.

For perspective, see John A. Tvedtnes' book on The Church of the Old Testament.

Edited March 13, 2013 by Robert F. Smith

[Sevenbak]

I would like to explore the possibility that Brigham Young (and perhaps others) could have been a false prophet, but more especially, whether that would impact on whether Thomas S Monson is a true prophet today. Could it be possible for a false prophet, or a non-prophet, to occupy the position, the judgement seat if you like, and his successors still be prophets?

Let me explain.

The more I learn the more I am suspicious of brother Brigham's prophetic abilities. Significantly, he himself never claimed to be a prophet. In fact he actually claimed he wasn't, but was a steady hand to preserve the church. Polygamy, the priesthood ban on Africans, Adam-God, even blood atonement etc, all seem to indicate that he taught and practiced false doctrine. So let's assume he was a false/non prophet and that Joseph Smith's statement that if "Brigham Young ever lead the church he would lead it to hell" were true. Would that invalidate all successive church presidents?

My own opinion is that it would not.

While I don't believe Brigham was a false prophet, in answer to your question, yes, it is possible for keys and authority to be passed down through fallen and wicked servants.

An example of this is Alma, installed by wicked King Noah, who removed the righteous priests. He still had power and keys to baptize and start a church.

[altersteve]

I believe Brother Brigham was chosen to lead the Church because he was the only one able to do what needed to be done. He wasn't chosen by God because he had so many profound truths about the gospel to share with us, but because he was the right man for the job -- charismatic, physically strong, and a good leader.

Edited March 13, 2013 by altersteve

[Calm]

do you know where he said that? I would love to read it! I believe and not doing a CFR on ya or anything of the kind

He said it a couple of times, here is one:

https://www.lds.org/...cology?lang=eng

Every social and potential problem of any significance that I know about can be solved, and solved only by the application of the teachings and the insights of the Master. That is almost trite to say, and yet, experientially, this is borne in on me with a truthfulness and impact as never before.

One of the things the Church does for each of us (even though the Church is perfect in its doctrine and its divine leadership, it is filled with imperfect people like you and me) is to avoid this kind of problem: “The more often a man feels without acting, the less he will ever be able to act, and in the long run, the less he will ever be able to feel.” (C. S. Lewis.) I am grateful that the Church helps me to feel, prods me to act, and keeps me feeling and acting in a way that I would not do if the kingdom did not “lean” on me and also create opportunities for me to participate. The gospel moves us to action through the institution of the Church in a concerted and effective way that, left to ourselves, many of us simply would not undertake.

http://www.cumorah.o..._A_Maxwell.html

Second Questioner: Is not the gospel quite pessimistic in its description of man as carnal, sensual, and devilish?

The Disciple: No, the gospel is realistically redemptive. Never underestimate the redemptive reach of the gospel. The gospel strikes a truthful and marvelous balance in many ways. For instance, the Lord himself says that "almost all" individuals will abuse authority and power when they have it. That's "almost all"—not even "most" or "many," a searing indictment! Yet God still shares his power with us. The balance comes in the conditions under which power can truly be shared.

The restored gospel avoids the curdled predestinarian view of man; it also avoids the naivete of liberalism with its sometimes excessive optimism. For instance, what we in America have seen in the corruption of governments is partially described in verse 37 of the 121st section of the Doctrine and Covenants: explicit attention given therein to the covering of sins, the gratifying of pride, the role of vain ambition, and the passion to exercise control or dominion. "Almost all" of us tend to do these if we are not exceedingly careful. But Jesus' model of leadership is not only loving, but also longsuffering. Under his approach, when our soul is enlarged, it is without hypocrisy or guile.

Second Questioner: Yet some who hold the very priesthood of which you speak abuse it at times.

The Disciple: Sadly some of that occurs, and we believe that each person is accountable for his own sins. There is strict accountability in the gospel. As noted before, the gospel is perfect and the basic structure of the Church is perfect. But Church members are not—back to the clinical material and laboratory of life reality again.

Second Questioner: That sounds rather Darwinistic, does it not?

The Disciple: Not Darwinistic, but realistic. I am touched and impressed that Jesus knew beforehand that a growing but not yet fully strong Peter would, on one occasion, not own up to knowing Jesus. Yet Jesus labored with and loved Peter and prepared him to be the president of the church, "notwithstanding" Peter's weakness.

The gospel not only warns us of our weaknesses, but helps us to overcome them. This requires a mortal setting where real growth is possible. Apparently, God even gives us weaknesses that we may be humble. (Ether 12:23-27.) The humble individual can see and feel things and can admit things, own up to them, in ways that the proud person cannot do. Pride not only isolates one from others—but, alas, from himself and his possibilities.

Edited March 13, 2013 by calmoriah

[Calm]

Another:

Now, you and I are realistic enough to know that you can’t ring the gong every time, that life in the Church is a situation where the Church is perfect, its doctrine is perfect, and its leadership is divine, but then you and I are in it.

http://www.ldsces.or...oblems__eng.pdf

Note in this one that he is including himself...perhaps not the Prophet, but as close to the Prophet as one gets in our faith...as part of the imperfect part of the Church. And he attaches the attribute of divinity to the Church's leadership...he is obviously talking about Christ, not the current Prophet.

Edited March 13, 2013 by calmoriah

[MormonMason]

I tend to find this quote from Reverend Dummelow in his commentary on the Bible pertinent to such questions as the above:

“We must not regard the Bible as an absolutely perfect book, in which God is Himself the author, using human hands and brains only as a man may use a typewriter. God used men, not machines - men with like weakness and prejudice and passion as ourselves ... in the Bible we do not expect the actors to be real and natural. Because of our false theory of Verbal Inspiration we are puzzled when the divine is mingled with the human. We must learn that the divine is mingled with the human ... It is a mine of precious ore where the gold is mingled with the rock and clay - the ore is richer in one part than another, but all parts in some degree are glittering with gold. Their inspiration did not involve a suspension of their natural faculties, nor abolish the differences of training and character; it did not even make them perfectly free from earthly passion. Therefore, we find that their knowledge sometimes is no higher than their contemporaries and their indignation against oppression and wrongdoing sometimes breaks out into desire of revenge. It surprises us in the Bible, because of our false preconception; because of our false theory of Verbal Inspiration.”

If it is pertinent to ancient prophets, what makes any of us think it would be any different with modern prophets? Would it not be a double standard to hold ancient prophets to one standard and modern prophets to another?

Edited March 13, 2013 by MormonMason

[mathonihah]

Of course not. Perhaps there are silly billies that were raised to believe that sort of poppycock. Reminds me of the official doctrine that the Pope, when speaking on morals and doctrine, is infallible. The LDS Church has no such doctrine.

That is not really correct. You have misstated both the Catholic as well as LDS position. The Catholic doctrine of Papal infallibility is not as you have stated it, and in essence it is not much different from that of the Mormon Prophet, which is derived from D&C 21:4–5.

Edited March 13, 2013 by mathonihah

[mathonihah]

While I don't believe Brigham was a false prophet, in answer to your question, yes, it is possible for keys and authority to be passed down through fallen and wicked servants.

An example of this is Alma, installed by wicked King Noah, who removed the righteous priests. He still had power and keys to baptize and start a church.

You have misunderstood that entirely. Alma did not receive any priesthood authority from king Noah. He obtained it directly from God, after he had repented of all his sins.

[mathonihah]

I believe Brother Brigham was chosen to lead the Church because he was the only one able to do what needed to be done. He wasn't chosen by God because he had so many profound truths about the gospel to share with us, but because he was the right man for the job -- charismatic, physically strong, and a good leader.

And a prophet. He did what he did by revelation and inspiration from the Lord, without which he wouldn't have been able to do anything at all.

[halconero]

"If Brigham Young ever lead the church he would lead it to hell."

Utah.

[Glenn101]

And a prophet. He did what he did by revelation and inspiration from the Lord, without which he wouldn't have been able to do anything at all.

I agree. I don't think that there is any dispute that all prophets are capable, and do make mistakes. Some may make grave mistakes. However, I believe that such grave mistakes will be made known to the church by the Lord and not leave the members of the church to wonder and speculate about if they were fallen or false prophets, etc.. Take the case of David. He was a prophet king. He made a grave mistake in the case of Bathsheba and Uriah the Hittite. However, he was confronted about it by Nathan the prophet and his error has been recorded for everyone to read.

I feel certain that if Joseph Smith or Brigham Young had been guilty of a grave error concerning any of the major faults that so many have been accusing them of, those wrrors would have been pointed out and publicized through official channels long ago. I say this, not with faith in any man to make this happen, but with complete faith in my God, that He is indeed the one that calls His prophets, seers, and revelators, and that He will not allow His church to be led astray.

Whatever speculations that Brigham Young may have indulged in, they never became canonized as church doctrine. As such, they are just things that can be dredged up to try to discredit him in the eyes of man, but like it or not, man is not Brigham's jusge. That is the sole province of God.

I would rather marvel at the accomplisments of the church and the people of Utah under the leadership of Brigham Young.

And, at least one former President of the Church seemed to think that Brigham was in pretty good standing with the Lord in the next life, as evidenced by this excerpt from a conference talk, October 4, 1890.

"I have had a many interviews with President Young since he died, a great many teachings from him, and from others who held important positions here in the flesh, but who have gone into the spirit world, and seem, in a measure, to have an interest and watch-care over the Church and Kingdom of God though they have passed to the other side of the veil."

Glenn

[altersteve]

Utah.

Got to admit, I laughed.

[K-2]

I don't know anything about Joseph Smith having said that Brigham Young would lead the Church to hell, and Alan, 20 hours after he was asked, has still not provided a reference for that, but this morning I saw a quote from Brigham Young in my facebook news feed from the Brigham Young facebook page, and the first part is directly relevant (strange coincidence):

I used to think, and think now, that an angel dwelling in the presence of the Father and the Son possessed no more integrity in their hearts than did Hyrum Smith. While he lived he was Joseph's fast friend. Notwithstanding this, I have heard Joseph tell him that if the Church was left to his leadership he would lead it directly to hell. He never appointed his brother Hyrum to be his successor. He never even thought of such a thing and if my word is good for anything I can say of a truth that Joseph told me not three months before he was killed, and I did not seek the information he gave me, we were talking upon counseling, governing and controlling; that "If I am moved out of the way you are the only man living on this earth who can counsel and direct the affairs of the Kingdom of God on the earth."...

--Brigham Young, October 8, 1866, The Complete Discourses of Brigham Young 4:2381.

Edited March 13, 2013 by K-2

[rodheadlee]

Don't mean to be such a contrarian here, but how many times have we heard the phrase, "the people aren't perfect, the church is". So now we're teaching it isn't?

So what is your point besides being cotrarian? The Church is made up of people how could it be perfect?

[Alan]

I don't know anything about Joseph Smith having said that Brigham Young would lead the Church to hell, and Alan, 20 hours after he was asked, has still not provided a reference for that,

Sorry, I got home late. I am at work right now (remember, there is a significant time difference), but will get to it when I get home from work.

I did actually find the references online, but they are contained in a large article and I was initially unsuccessful in extracting them for posting. Like I said, I'll try again later.