Calm Posted March 13, 2013 Posted March 13, 2013 Sorry, I got home late. I am at work right now (remember, there is a significant time difference), but will get to it when I get home from work.I did actually find the references online, but they are contained in a large article and I was initially unsuccessful in extracting them for posting. Like I said, I'll try again later.That is all that we ask (or at least me ).
K-2 Posted March 14, 2013 Posted March 14, 2013 Alan, since you still haven't provided a reference, I spent a couple of minutes googling it and found that the quote is from William Smith and comes from a letter that he wrote while on a mission for the RLDS Church which was published in one of their periodical publications, the Saints' Herald, October 20, 1920, page 1018. William claimed that Joseph Smith made the remark while talking about having trouble with certain elders, among whom was mentioned Brigham Young, teaching and practicing polygamy. Does this sound like something Joseph Smith would have said? I think not.
Programmer Posted March 14, 2013 Posted March 14, 2013 I don't think this a game that I will play.Brigham Young received the keys of the priesthood through his Apostleship through the properly prescribed and authorized priesthood channels. If you don't believe in priesthood authority fine, that's a different theological game you can punt around with. As for me, I think Brigham young was a great man, a great and good leader, and I wish we had more like him today. 1
Alan Posted March 14, 2013 Author Posted March 14, 2013 (edited) OK, I'm back.The affidvitts are contained in a document called Salt Land Heresies. If you want to read the whole document it can be found here: http://www.restored.org/lds/salthrsy.htm They're about 20% of the way down a very long essay.I have actually extracted the relevant quotes but they won't paste for some reason. I'm a bit of a luddite when it comes to technology so I guess I must be doing something wrong.If I figure it out I'll post the specific quotes that are the subject of this thread. Edited March 14, 2013 by Alan
ERayR Posted March 14, 2013 Posted March 14, 2013 So what is your point besides being cotrarian? The Church is made up of people how could it be perfect?Agreed, I always cringed just a little at that statement. 1
Alan Posted March 14, 2013 Author Posted March 14, 2013 "I have had a many interviews with President Young since he died, a great many teachings from him, and from others who held important positions here in the flesh, but who have gone into the spirit world, and seem, in a measure, to have an interest and watch-care over the Church and Kingdom of God though they have passed to the other side of the veil."GlennI find this less than convincing. We're not really supposed to communicate with the dead. The devil could easily appear as Brigham. Actually, it gives me the creeps.
Alan Posted March 14, 2013 Author Posted March 14, 2013 I used to think, and think now, that an angel dwelling in the presence of the Father and the Son possessed no more integrity in their hearts than did Hyrum Smith. While he lived he was Joseph's fast friend. Notwithstanding this, I have heard Joseph tell him that if the Church was left to his leadership he would lead it directly to hell. He never appointed his brother Hyrum to be his successor. He never even thought of such a thing and if my word is good for anything I can say of a truth that Joseph told me not three months before he was killed, and I did not seek the information he gave me, we were talking upon counseling, governing and controlling; that "If I am moved out of the way you are the only man living on this earth who can counsel and direct the affairs of the Kingdom of God on the earth."...--Brigham Young, October 8, 1866, The Complete Discourses of Brigham Young 4:2381.Brigham Young is on record as saying that Joseph appointed Hyrum as his successor. Therefore I give little credibility to the above quote. If it is accurate then Brigham was not telling the truth one way or the other.
Duncan Posted March 14, 2013 Posted March 14, 2013 I don't know anything about Joseph Smith having said that Brigham Young would lead the Church to hell, and Alan, 20 hours after he was asked, has still not provided a reference for that, but this morning I saw a quote from Brigham Young in my facebook news feed from the Brigham Young facebook page, and the first part is directly relevant (strange coincidence):I used to think, and think now, that an angel dwelling in the presence of the Father and the Son possessed no more integrity in their hearts than did Hyrum Smith. While he lived he was Joseph's fast friend. Notwithstanding this, I have heard Joseph tell him that if the Church was left to his leadership he would lead it directly to hell. He never appointed his brother Hyrum to be his successor. He never even thought of such a thing and if my word is good for anything I can say of a truth that Joseph told me not three months before he was killed, and I did not seek the information he gave me, we were talking upon counseling, governing and controlling; that "If I am moved out of the way you are the only man living on this earth who can counsel and direct the affairs of the Kingdom of God on the earth."...--Brigham Young, October 8, 1866, The Complete Discourses of Brigham Young 4:2381.it seems to me that this statement is saying if the ldeadership of the Church was left to Hyrum Smith then he and not Pres. Young would lead it to hell
Calm Posted March 14, 2013 Posted March 14, 2013 (edited) Considering Joseph and Hyrum's relationship and the reputation of Hyrum as a godly man, I can only imagine any reluctance on Joseph's part would be concern over Hyrum's ability to lead and keep the Saints together, not in his goodness or connection with God. Perhaps he thought Hyrum would be too gentle with them.Not all godly men make great leaders.And unfortunately way too many great leaders are not godly men. Edited March 14, 2013 by calmoriah 4
pogi Posted March 14, 2013 Posted March 14, 2013 I find this less than convincing. We're not really supposed to communicate with the dead. The devil could easily appear as Brigham. Actually, it gives me the creeps.Maybe you need a refresher course on the restoration. With visitations from John the baptist, Peter, James, John, Moses, Jesus, Elias, Moroni, and others, I don't know how you could say we are not supposed to communicate with the dead. In fact, Joseph gave very clear instructions on how to discern evil spirits from good spirits and resurrected beings. With the restoration of the priesthood comes the keys of the ministering of angels. The dead (though I don't really like that term as it makes me think of zombies or something) play an active role in our church and always have. 2
Damien the Leper Posted March 14, 2013 Posted March 14, 2013 Utah.Now this is worthy of being included into the Standard Works and divinely canonized.
Damien the Leper Posted March 14, 2013 Posted March 14, 2013 Got to admit, I laughed.I couldn't stop laughing...Halconero is an awesome comedian!
Bart Burk Posted March 14, 2013 Posted March 14, 2013 I would like to explore the possibility that Brigham Young (and perhaps others) could have been a false prophet, but more especially, whether that would impact on whether Thomas S Monson is a true prophet today. Could it be possible for a false prophet, or a non-prophet, to occupy the position, the judgement seat if you like, and his successors still be prophets?Let me explain.The more I learn the more I am suspicious of brother Brigham's prophetic abilities. Significantly, he himself never claimed to be a prophet. In fact he actually claimed he wasn't, but was a steady hand to preserve the church. Polygamy, the priesthood ban on Africans, Adam-God, even blood atonement etc, all seem to indicate that he taught and practiced false doctrine. So let's assume he was a false/non prophet and that Joseph Smith's statement that if "Brigham Young ever lead the church he would lead it to hell" were true. Would that invalidate all successive church presidents?My own opinion is that it would not.Perhaps Brigham Young's gift was the gift of being able to lead the Saints to Utah. Perhaps LDS leaders are given the gifts that accord with their purpose in God's plan. Perhaps theology wasn't Brigham's strong suit. God writes straight with crooked lines. 2
Alan Posted March 14, 2013 Author Posted March 14, 2013 Maybe you need a refresher course on the restoration. With visitations from John the baptist, Peter, James, John, Moses, Jesus, Elias, Moroni, and others, I don't know how you could say we are not supposed to communicate with the dead. In fact, Joseph gave very clear instructions on how to discern evil spirits from good spirits and resurrected beings. With the restoration of the priesthood comes the keys of the ministering of angels. The dead (though I don't really like that term as it makes me think of zombies or something) play an active role in our church and always have.The visitation of the angels you mention (all resurrected mark you) was for the purpose of restoring keys or authority.I am not aware that an unresurrected Brigham restored any keys.I find this story less than believable. 1
Damien the Leper Posted March 14, 2013 Posted March 14, 2013 Perhaps Brigham Young's gift was the gift of being able to lead the Saints to Utah. Perhaps LDS leaders are given the gifts that accord with their purpose in God's plan. Perhaps theology wasn't Brigham's strong suit. God writes straight with crooked lines.Leading anyone to Utah is no gift. God didn't choose Utah. He chose Jackson Co., which isn't saying much either.
ERayR Posted March 14, 2013 Posted March 14, 2013 Perhaps Brigham Young's gift was the gift of being able to lead the Saints to Utah. Perhaps LDS leaders are given the gifts that accord with their purpose in God's plan. Perhaps theology wasn't Brigham's strong suit. God writes straight with crooked lines.Or perhaps it was and just is not ours. Someday we may find that amongst all those perceived faults and errors Brother Brigham knew more than we. 2
ERayR Posted March 14, 2013 Posted March 14, 2013 Leading anyone to Utah is no gift. God didn't choose Utah. He chose Jackson Co., which isn't saying much either.To ascend above all things one must first descend below all things. 4
pogi Posted March 14, 2013 Posted March 14, 2013 (edited) The visitation of the angels you mention (all resurrected mark you) was for the purpose of restoring keys or authority.I am not aware that an unresurrected Brigham restored any keys.I find this story less than believable.Heavenly visitations are not simply to restore keys or authority. Consider Moroni, Noah, Isaac, and other nameless visitors who visited Joseph. These simply came as messengers to teach, offer direction, and to bear up. Also, a being need not be resurrected to visit the saints. Consider D&C 129 which is instruction by Joseph to the saints to discern resurrected visitors from unresurrected beings and devils:1 There are two kinds of beings in heaven, namely: Angels, who are cresurrected personages, having bodies of flesh and bones—2 For instance, Jesus said: Handle me and see, for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.3 Secondly: the spirits of just men made perfect, they who are not resurrected, but inherit the same glory.4 When a messenger comes saying he has a message from God, offer him your hand and request him to shake hands with you.5 If he be an angel he will do so, and you will feel his hand.6 If he be the spirit of a just man made perfect he will come in his glory; for that is the only way he can appear—7 Ask him to shake hands with you, but he will not move, because it is contrary to the aorder of heaven for a just man to deceive; but he will still deliver his message.8 If it be the devil as an angel of light, when you ask him to shake hands he will offer you his hand, and you will not feel anything; you may therefore detect him.9 These are three grand akeys whereby you may know whether any administration is from God.Given these verses, I do not find it unbelievable that Brigham Young visited his successor to offer instruction. Even Brigham Young claims to have visited with Joseph Smith in vision to receive instruction of him regarding the law of adoption and the sealing power. Doesn't D&C 129 give credibility to the account of Brigham Young's visitation? Edited March 14, 2013 by pogi 2
Damien the Leper Posted March 14, 2013 Posted March 14, 2013 To ascend above all things one must first descend below all things.You make me laugh...this is awesome.
ERayR Posted March 14, 2013 Posted March 14, 2013 You make me laugh...this is awesome.Thanks. I have often thought that Brigham must have been really upset with those he sent to Moab. 1
omni Posted March 15, 2013 Posted March 15, 2013 So what is your point besides being cotrarian? The Church is made up of people how could it be perfect?You don't need to tell me the church isnt perfect you need to tell the many, many members who believe it is.
ERayR Posted March 15, 2013 Posted March 15, 2013 You don't need to tell me the church isnt perfect you need to tell the many, many members who believe it is.Why? 1
K-2 Posted March 15, 2013 Posted March 15, 2013 Alan, that Salt Land Heresies document is on a website run by the RLDS restoration branches. How did you come across it? Do you agree with their beliefs?
K-2 Posted March 15, 2013 Posted March 15, 2013 K-2, on 13 March 2013 - 08:25 AM, said:I don't know anything about Joseph Smith having said that Brigham Young would lead the Church to hell, and Alan, 20 hours after he was asked, has still not provided a reference for that, but this morning I saw a quote from Brigham Young in my facebook news feed from the Brigham Young facebook page, and the first part is directly relevant (strange coincidence):"I used to think, and think now, that an angel dwelling in the presence of the Father and the Son possessed no more integrity in their hearts than did Hyrum Smith. While he lived he was Joseph's fast friend. Notwithstanding this, I have heard Joseph tell him that if the Church was left to his leadership he would lead it directly to hell. He never appointed his brother Hyrum to be his successor. He never even thought of such a thing and if my word is good for anything I can say of a truth that Joseph told me not three months before he was killed, and I did not seek the information he gave me, we were talking upon counseling, governing and controlling; that "If I am moved out of the way you are the only man living on this earth who can counsel and direct the affairs of the Kingdom of God on the earth."...--Brigham Young, October 8, 1866, The Complete Discourses of Brigham Young 4:2381.it seems to me that this statement is saying if the ldeadership of the Church was left to Hyrum Smith then he and not Pres. Young would lead it to hellYeah. And it shows that Joseph Smith had confidence in Brigham Young leading the Church, contrary to RLDS assertions and "recollections". 1
Robert F. Smith Posted March 15, 2013 Posted March 15, 2013 (edited) That is not really correct. You have misstated both the Catholic as well as LDS position. The Catholic doctrine of Papal infallibility is not as you have stated it, and in essence it is not much different from that of the Mormon Prophet, which is derived from D&C 21:4–5.O.K. The Pope is infallible "when, in the exercise of his office as shepherd and teacher of all Christians, in virtue of his supreme apostolic authority, he defines [ex cathedra] a doctrine concerning faith or morals to be held by the whole Church" (http://en.wikipedia....l_infallibility, citing Vatican I, 1870,"First Dogmatic Constitution on the Church," chapter 4, 9).Again, the LDS Church has no such doctrine, and D&C 21:4-5 says nothing about it. Edited March 15, 2013 by Robert F. Smith 1
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